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Old 2012-04-04, 04:08   Link #861
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
What i meant is that how do u know human fats has the same density as Dark matter? Thats is to say, how do u know a hand full of fats doesnt become a bathtub full of dark matter even if they are the same mass or weight or whatever?
My bad, I bow my head on that one ... Dark Matter is so strange that it's impossible to even say if it's actually heavy or not but :

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Secondly, AIM are unconcious release of energy, a normal human does this all thev time except that is call body heat among other things, theres no need to make it anymore complicated since it was also mention that AIM as so weak you need special machines to detect them, that doesnt sound like something that would require alot of juice to maintain.
Well, that one goes to my favor. If it's pure energy, according to E=M(C^2), you also need to convert an astronomical amount of energy to create a mass of just 1kg ... so it's still highly unlikely that a massive being like AIM Burst could be created with only the amount produced by 10000 weak espers ... and you've proven yourself that AIM is very weak. Also, even if they drastically increase their AIM release or even overload, those espers wouldn't even be able to "convert" a great amount of fat (even if they have the necessary reserves) into the aggregation of AIM that AIM Burst is ... for the simple reason that they're weak ...

Actually, no matter how we look at it (whether AIM is energy or mass, whether it's dense or not) AIM Burst's feats or its existence itself contradicts at some point with that fundamental law. The only alternative to explain that is to assume that just like Dark Matter, AIM doesn't follow the law of conservation ... therefore every single esper somehow bypass too.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
As for Kakine still creating dark matter, they are bound to place him in a life support jar right? Not too hard to imagine them adding various fluids and biochemicals to it...
Yeah, I bow my head on that one too ...
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Old 2012-04-04, 05:00   Link #862
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
^ I was trying to make a demonstration by the absurd but if you say that dark matter is the only one who can break the law on conservation (since it's an already proven law breaker) then ... *look bellow*
What I'm saying is that there are a lot of things in this world that we CANNOT see, like the example of RL dark matter, and along with this it might not follow the exact laws of physics that we know of (liek how Einsteinian physics overturns Newtonian physics on certain scales).


In Indexverse, we already have mana which is used in magic, although it's not noticable using precise measurements. Following this logic, we can assume that AIM is an alternate form of energy which is generated from whatever source. Now, where that AIM comes from hasn't been explained yet, but just as mana just exists, we should assume AIM just exists. The manipulation of mana/AIM does sort of follow the law of conservation.
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Old 2012-04-04, 05:54   Link #863
leukrota
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I have a theory that can somehow link all supernatural manifestations.

"Those with talent" are people capable of altering/breaking/ignoring the laws of physics to certain extent, brought through some sort of personal reality that they impose into the world, whether they are Gemstones, Saints or any other "abnormal" humans.

So, "those without talent", jealous of the special powers, sought ways to imitate them and found that every person has a small potential to change reality but only a few have enough potential to actually create the change. So instead of trying to use power of their own, "those without talent" constructed magic as a way of joining and channeling the potential of several people to compensate for the weakness. Furthermore, they realized that the easiest way to do this is through the reconstruction of stories that are already in the mind of those people whose potential the magician intends to borrow. And so magic was born. A technique with a wider range of application that what "those with talent" had since it's not limited to the specializations of a single person.

Then Aleister, with the guidance of Aiwass, found a different way of "acquiring talent". This would be by altering the brain of normal person so that their personal reality is limited and focused into a single "law breaking" effect, specializing further their normal potential, and thus compensating power by sacrificing flexibility (which would be why dual skill is impossible in artificial espers.)



So... what do you guys think?
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Old 2012-04-04, 06:38   Link #864
judasmartel
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So that is why Magic in the ToAruVerse usually fall under the Rule of Symbolism, right?

Say, how do you think would magic based on the legend of Ehud-ben-Gera look like? Would it be the ability of a proto-ninja?
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Old 2012-04-04, 07:07   Link #865
Marcus H.
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Ehub-ben-Gera is simply a Badass Normal. It wasn't known how he was influenced by God, and all he did was trick King Elgon of the Moabites and many others into perpetrating his assassination.
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Old 2012-04-04, 07:21   Link #866
judasmartel
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Hmm... I thought his legend could be incorporated as magic, though. Oh well.

Say, Moses was one of the earliest wielders of the Holy Right, yes?

EDIT: And... Who was the first Saint, Nimrod or Samson?
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Old 2012-04-04, 07:58   Link #867
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
-Snip-
And where does mana or AIM have a place in all this?
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Old 2012-04-04, 08:45   Link #868
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
In Indexverse, we already have mana which is used in magic, although it's not noticable using precise measurements. Following this logic, we can assume that AIM is an alternate form of energy which is generated from whatever source. Now, where that AIM comes from hasn't been explained yet, but just as mana just exists, we should assume AIM just exists. The manipulation of mana/AIM does sort of follow the law of conservation.
Yeah that's right, for mana we already know where it comes from and have a vague idea about how it works. For the Aim part and espers powers of course I never really said that they get energy from "out of nowhere" like that, I was mainly taking part in Flere's supposition that the energy and mass espers create came from their personal reality and not their physical body (which is the law of conservation we were talking about ... though it might have unexpectedly degenerated to another subject).

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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
What I'm saying is that there are a lot of things in this world that we CANNOT see, like the example of RL dark matter, and along with this it might not follow the exact laws of physics that we know of (liek how Einsteinian physics overturns Newtonian physics on certain scales).
Let's not try to debate on this subject ^^"
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Old 2012-04-04, 10:24   Link #869
leukrota
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And where does mana or AIM have a place in all this?
Well, I haven't worked that part too well.

But, let suppose that the "talent" is the capacity of using some sort of fundamental energy to bring the personal reality into the world. This fundamental energy is within every living being and in the world itself, so Magicians can use the gathered talent/potential to refine their own life energy or the energy around them, and this refined energy is what they call Mana.

AIM might then be result of Espers subconsciously and constantly refining the energy around them (they don't use their own energy) to bring their personal reality... So I guess under this scheme, the Espers would also be using Mana, without needing to know what it is, or even being aware of it's existence.

Last edited by leukrota; 2012-04-04 at 10:38.
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Old 2012-04-04, 11:04   Link #870
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
so Magicians can use the gathered talent/potential to refine their own life energy or the energy around them, and this refined energy is what they call Mana.
Lol that reminds me of Nasu's Prana concept. Anyway, if I'm not wrong in the Toaruverse the energy produced by the leylines doesn't need to be refined.

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Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
AIM might then be result of Espers subconsciously and constantly refining the energy around them (they don't use their own energy) to bring their personal reality... So I guess under this scheme, the Espers would also be using Mana, without needing to know what it is, or even being aware of it's existence.
Espers doesn't refine energy, as far as we know to refine one's life force's or using the leylines' mana you need to use "belief" as a base which contradicts with espers' "scientific logic". And if any esper try to use that kind of energy to perform a certain supernatural task (even subconsciously like Accel did in NT3), it's exactly as using ... no it's actually using magic, and everyone knows what happens when an esper uses magic
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Old 2012-04-04, 11:44   Link #871
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Espers doesn't refine energy, as far as we know to refine one's life force's or using the leylines' mana you need to use "belief" as a base which contradicts with espers' "scientific logic".
Well, the fact is that they indeed can refine energy, as Accelerator proved while holding no religious belief. The issue for Espers is that using the "magical" way gives them a hell of a backlash. Anyway, the theory I wrote is precisely about how the belief and personal reality are the same on a basic level.
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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
And if any esper try to use that kind of energy to perform a certain supernatural task (even subconsciously like Accel did in NT3), it's exactly as using ... no it's actually using magic, and everyone knows what happens when an esper uses magic.
I can also pull out of my ass come up with a reason about how that works with the theory I'm playing with.

Espers deal badly with magic because their body is attuned to use their own personal reality only. What I'm trying to say is that under this theory they could safely use magic as long as the effect was the exact same as what their personal reality dictates. Of course, using such magic would be redundant and pointless.
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Old 2012-04-05, 02:53   Link #872
desrtsku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Well, the fact is that they indeed can refine energy, as Accelerator proved while holding no religious belief.
Hmm ... I did not say they "can't" but they "doesn't".
No one ever said it must be "religious belief", just having faith in anything : like buying a random urban legend is enough to refine spiritual energy (Shopping mall), or believing that a miracle can happen (Komoe-sensei), or just admitting the existence of another set of rules (Accelerator, Kuroyoru) ; and the instant they perform an action involving the use of that refined energy (even if they aren't aware of it themselves) ... they're doomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
The issue for Espers is that using the "magical" way gives them a hell of a backlash. Anyway, the theory I wrote is precisely about how the belief and personal reality are the same on a basic level.
Well like I said, using mana and belief themselves to perform an action are "magical" way, ...
And it's not faith and personal reality only ... Magic and Psychic powers themselves are basically the same as well, yet it still a bad idea to combine them

Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
Espers deal badly with magic because their body is attuned to use their own personal reality only. What I'm trying to say is that under this theory they could safely use magic as long as the effect was the exact same as what their personal reality dictates. Of course, using such magic would be redundant and pointless.
Would you mind being a bit more specific, please? I'm afraid I don't get what you mean. To be accurate, don't you try to tell me that Miko-chin won't be hurt if she casts a Lightning Bolt Spell?
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Old 2012-04-05, 04:13   Link #873
leukrota
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Would you mind being a bit more specific, please? I'm afraid I don't get what you mean. To be accurate, don't you try to tell me that Miko-chin won't be hurt if she casts a Lightning Bolt Spell?
Well, that's pretty much what I'm suggesting .

The reason the Espers get the backlash might not be due to an incompatibility of systems but that their minds and bodies only allow them to perform a small subset of spells...

Or perhaps it's not their bodies' fault, but their AIM. According to this crack induced theory the AIM is constantly refining energy to feed the Esper's powers. If an Esper tried refining energy for a different purpose then the AIM's and the spell's refining processes would get in each other ways and result in failing both processes, hence the increased backlash (it would be similar to failing 2 spells at the same time.)

Hmm.. I'm starting to think about a different theory, but I'll leave that for another time.

Last edited by leukrota; 2012-04-05 at 12:09. Reason: a couple typos... that's why I shouldn't write while being half asleep.
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Old 2012-04-05, 07:11   Link #874
Sumeragi
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I think we can say this: You do not put gasoline into a diesel engine or vice versa.
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Old 2012-04-05, 10:03   Link #875
desrtsku
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^ yeah, it's better said like that
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Old 2012-04-05, 12:29   Link #876
leukrota
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I guess this won't generate much discussion...

Ok, here another wild idea inspired by that aborted embryo of a theory.

What if Espers are actually magicians who use Science as their belief system?
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Old 2012-04-05, 14:44   Link #877
Ilidsor
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^Then there would be no reasons that espers couldn't use magic :P
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Old 2012-04-06, 00:06   Link #878
leukrota
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Tst, fine I'm done, you guys are no fun at all.
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Old 2012-04-06, 10:49   Link #879
Chaos2Frozen
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Tst, fine I'm done, you guys are no fun at all.
I'm sorry to hear that- You know what you should do? You should trying dipping into Nanoha's magitech discussion thread; compared to us, those guys are loads of fun and will absolutely, definitely, positively not take things too seriously...
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Old 2012-04-06, 11:29   Link #880
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Nanoha sucks. Come at me.
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