AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-04-04, 20:10   Link #441
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Yeah but it's much more pronounced in Xros Wars. Like the time when Shoutmon saved Greymon and MailBirdramon all by himself.
Again not really, since Xros Wars would outright nerf the all the digimon that Shoutmon went up against. It wasn't really that Shoutmon was truly stronger more like the story wanted him to win.

Look no further than its treatment of Lucemon and Lilithmon for an example of how Xros Wars nerfed enemy digimon to make our protagonists win. Those two digimon separately have the power to destroy a world and for Lucemon fall down mode and Chaos mode to be nerfed the way he was just just sad.

When you do something like this it isn't experience when the writer brought down his enemy to his level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
My point being, there is a point in the majority of Digimon universes where a Digimon will HAVE to evolve in order to win, and will never win unless they figure out a way to evolve.

I just prefer the system in Xros Wars where your guys can still kick some ass without having to evolve or DigiXros.

I never said (or meant to say) that evolution in the OTHER series is inferior to DigiXros. It's more or less the same thing actually. In Xros Wars, Super Evolution was like this big huge power boost over DigiXros. Whereas in Xros Hunters, all of this was inverted. For example, OmegaShoutmon could beat Tactimon, which earlier on required a (struggling) X5. Later on, Super Evolution became more awesome with Shoutmon DX. Whereas in Hunters it's pretty clear that X4 is apparently MUCH stronger than Arresterdramon. It just doesn't click with me.

What I'm saying is, the great power gap between an unevolved digimon and an evolved digimon suddenly became almost negligible inbetween seasons.
Again that's not true, even back in Adventure you would still have lower level digimon defeating higher level digimon after they gained the experience to do so. And Adventure itself is preceded by V-Tamer by a year. Most (cause I haven't read all of them) digimon manga also follow this rule. Even 02 as bad as it was followed this rule. And all of them did it without nerfing the enemy digimon. So again, Adventure did it, 02 did it, Tamers reveled in it, Frontier dabbed in it, and Savers lived in it, all without throwing out the evolution line system, and not nerfing the enemy digimon to make make the main digimon appear strong. This is why Shoutmon is not really considered all that powerful since the digimon he went up against weren't as strong as they should have been.

Well that's you, the Xros system itself is full of holes, and lacks rules. Trust me Bandai will treat this the same way they treated Armor and Spirit evolution, they will assign Shoutmon and all his forms a level, and then they will abandon it.

Because the writer himself didn't define his own system, or at least didn't know how to add rules to it, since in Xros Wars it didn't have any rules. This is the reason I don't prefer it.

And for the record Xros War's explanation for super evolution was the description for normal evolution.

What I'm saying is this Digi Xros is ill defined at best, which isn't helped by the fact that the "higher level" digimon were made weaker in this season in order to make the protagonist appear stronger. It did not properly handle the showcasing of experience, and strategy being triumphant over raw power.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 02:53   Link #442
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
They weren't made weaker, this was a different universe, so there is no reason for their power level to be different...


You know, I didn't even want to start this argument. I was just trying to say that Super Evolution was nerfed between Xros Wars and Xros Hunters >_>

How is "Fast-forwarding one's form to one they will have hundreds of years from now" and "Advancing one level" the same thing? They are completely different.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 05:18   Link #443
Sageblink
Speculation is wrong.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Paris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
How is "Fast-forwarding one's form to one they will have hundreds of years from now" and "Advancing one level" the same thing? They are completely different.
Seriously, you answered that in your own question.
It's not exactly the same, but it's damn similar.
You take a digimon and turn it into the form it will achieve later naturally, this sudden change being temporary. (heck, I can make it sound exactly the same...)

(and i'm not buying the Zeekgreymon case. His super-evolution needs for him to be x-cross with Metalbirdramon in order to work.)
Sageblink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 07:49   Link #444
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
They weren't made weaker, this was a different universe, so there is no reason for their power level to be different...


You know, I didn't even want to start this argument. I was just trying to say that Super Evolution was nerfed between Xros Wars and Xros Hunters >_>

How is "Fast-forwarding one's form to one they will have hundreds of years from now" and "Advancing one level" the same thing? They are completely different.
I'm talking about the individual strength of the digimon used, have you ever read some of the official digimon profiles for the enemies that were used as fodder in this season? Quite a few of them were the digimon equivalent of a legendary pokemon, where it is not so much the level that is the problem, but what the digimon represents.

Xros Wars is the only season to not pay attention to this.

Actually super evolution was really just means jumping from child level(rookie) to Ultimate level (Mega). The digimon would have likely evolved into that form on their own with the passage of time anyway. The actual strength doesn't come from the type of evolution but the digimon itself, ergo if a digimon has a weak ultimate form then that evolved form will be a weak ultimate digimon.

Its a general digimon rule that the type of evolution itself doesn't provide any digimon with more or less power.

It is considering that normal evolution is basically aging for digimon, a digimon evolves from adult to perfect through strength and experience, and from perfect to ulitmate with even more so, as well as special conditions.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 08:02   Link #445
Kurosu
KORA!!
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 23
Send a message via MSN to Kurosu
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I'm talking about the individual strength of the digimon used, have you ever read some of the official digimon profiles for the enemies that were used as fodder in this season? Quite a few of them were the digimon equivalent of a legendary pokemon, where it is not so much the level that is the problem, but what the digimon represents.

Xros Wars is the only season to not pay attention to this.

Actually super evolution was really just means jumping from child level(rookie) to Ultimate level (Mega). The digimon would have likely evolved into that form on their own with the passage of time anyway. The actual strength doesn't come from the type of evolution but the digimon itself, ergo if a digimon has a weak ultimate form then that evolved form will be a weak ultimate digimon.

Its a general digimon rule that the type of evolution itself doesn't provide any digimon with more or less power.

It is considering that normal evolution is basically aging for digimon, a digimon evolves from adult to perfect through strength and experience, and from perfect to ulitmate with even more so, as well as special conditions.
It's supposed to signify growth, that's how it's been for a while now, but Xros Wars kinda throws that element out the window.
It kinda bothered me how Mamomyotismons and Venomyotismons were getting one shotted left and right...
So I won't bother to bring up bad memories of this show concerning the nerfing and buffing of crap.
Kurosu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 09:11   Link #446
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Except Shoutmon clearly isn't a child level digimon. And levels don't even exist in Xros Wars. But lets just agree to disagree on that point.

So what about the part where I said "Super Evolution was nerfed inbetween Wars and Hunters"?
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 10:01   Link #447
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Except Shoutmon clearly isn't a child level digimon. And levels don't even exist in Xros Wars. But lets just agree to disagree on that point.

So what about the part where I said "Super Evolution was nerfed in between Wars and Hunters"?
He most likely will end up a child level once Bandai decides to assign them levels, as all digimon protagonists have child level partners (except Hikari but she's special), also Shoutmon has the build of a child level digimon. Again I'm not talking about levels I'm talking about the individual strength of the digimon, because level does not necessarily dictate strength in digimon franchise.

Again super evolution is really just Child(rookie) skipped to Ultimate(mega), an Agumon who uses super evolution to become Wargreymon isn't any stronger than a Metalgreymon who evolves into a Wargreymon. Evolution in digimon isn't just an indication of level but also of age and experience, its the digimon equivalent of growing up. It seems more like the head writer for Xros Wars actually looked up super evolution before he did Xros Hunters.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 12:16   Link #448
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
That's how it would be outside of the Xros universe. But this is still the Xros universe where digimon have genders and can have parents and evolution is a gradual process (rather than an instant one) that takes centuries.

So basically what you are saying is, the whole effort that Taiki and Kiriha had to go through to attain their Super Evolution is cheapened because the writer looked it up?

Seriously can't we just agree to disagree?
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-05, 19:38   Link #449
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Again I'm not talking about just the Xros universe or about evolution in general I'm talking about the bad writing decisions. Though Xros universe breaks a hell of a lot of digimon franchise rules, so much to the point where one can say that its digimon season in name only, and funnily enough its manga counterpart doesn't break half as many rules.

Or maybe the writer was just a bad writer, and never once stopped to even think about the system that he was creating and using.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 04:29   Link #450
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Just because you don't agree with his decisions doesn't make him stupid or wrong.

Seriously it's an opinion and I am entitled to have my own.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 07:55   Link #451
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Just because you don't agree with his decisions doesn't make him stupid or wrong.

Seriously it's an opinion and I am entitled to have my own.
I never called the writer stupid, I just pointed out that he made a lot of bad writing decisions which may have caused Xros Wars to have the lowest ranking of all digimon series (even Frontier has a higher ranking). For all intents and purposes Xros Wars was a failure.

You are entitled to your own opinions but when you share those opinions on forums its likely that you'll come across those who don't agree with you.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 12:38   Link #452
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, sorry if I made it seem that way.

Anyway I personally kind of like the changes. It's different. I like different.

Don't get me wrong, I like the same too. But different is like, a change of scenery.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-06, 14:39   Link #453
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, sorry if I made it seem that way.

Anyway I personally kind of like the changes. It's different. I like different.

Don't get me wrong, I like the same too. But different is like, a change of scenery.
I don't mind changes, but what I do hate is writers that write for a series and yet don't even bother to research or get their thoughts together for it.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 03:52   Link #454
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
There's no reason to assume that they didn't do research since they made up their own rules.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 04:05   Link #455
FlareKnight
User of the "Fast Draw"
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to FlareKnight Send a message via MSN to FlareKnight
Oh well in the end this should put to bed the Xros system. It was good for a series, but can't imagine they will carry it on past this point. I had mixed feelings about the system really. It did allow for some interesting combinations and avoid having some digimon in the group completely vanish (well until the super evolution came into the picture). It had some flexibility for different situations. Of course didn't really like how ambiguous it made things. You really couldn't get a feel for how strong anyone was. Can see how some might like that, but I just preferred the usual leveled system.

By itself I'd probably give the first season a solid spot in the overall digimon rankings. Though I'll also say that Hunters managed to drop itself right into the basement.
__________________
FlareKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 10:58   Link #456
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
There's no reason to assume that they didn't do research since they made up their own rules.
If he did do his research then why did he change all of those rules come the second season? Unless he never thought about them from the get-go.
wisteria233 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.