AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-04-07, 11:39   Link #28341
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Which is why in confessions she has them cooperate just long enough to kill them easily. When looked at like that, it isn't hard to see why she needed to off Hideyoshi and Eva so soon in Ep 1, they had been part to a very risky move right off the bat.
Sure, but Hideyoshi and Eva are not Yasu's only accomplices in EP1; and Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo weren't offed until the very end. So is it that they were all OK with loyally following an insane mass murderer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
People always bring up that we know almost nothing about R-Prime, but Ryu himself stated he gave out enough clues to know what happened with pretty much absolute certainty. If this causes people to complain that the only clues we have pertain to events that happened in the games, then that must be where the clues to what happened on R-Prime lie. After all, Battler does know the truth, he just doesn't remember it all at once.
I don't agree (and incidentally this quote also refers to Ange reading the Tome of One Truth too):

Spoiler for interview with Keiya, tagged for length:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
In a further and unrelated question, was it in one of the games or on here that I read that as any theories denying the use of the window to escape the sealed room in the wedding episode (EP 6 I guess?) did not create a logic error, there must be another way to do it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Ah. I'm rather certain that, in the game, escape by the window was the only possible solution. At the same time, Erika never figures out Shkanon, so when she can't explain how Kanon escaped the Guesthouse, Beatrice essentially went "Well, whatever. I won't make you explain that trick, and we'll just assume that he does it 'somehow'." There's nothing else really available to use besides Shannon left by the window, activated Kanon mode for the lulz.
There was no escape from the cousins' room. It was a perfect closed room.

I will expand on Kealym's explanation.

Beatrice decided to give Erika a 'handicap' and said she could use X to explain how Kanon left the "cousins' room". Of course this is because Kanon was never actually in the "cousins' room", but was 'sleeping dormant' within Shannon in the "next room over", which is why he wasn't included in "everyone else is in the cousins' room". At some point Kanon mode 'activated' and he exited the window of the "next room over", which was never confirmed to have maintained its seal at the time of the logic error (so the seal could simply have been broken without its status verified, and no one was going to verify it because all attention was on the window in the "cousins' room" instead).

Erika may have figured it all out if she asked the right questions, so Beatrice drew her attention away from the guesthouse with the 'handicap' thing. Crafty, isn't she?

But it is a logic error if you don't accept Kanon "sleeping dormant" allowing him to not be included in "everyone else".
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 11:42   Link #28342
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
The sentences were said in different moments so taken in context the word can have different meanings and we don't know if the sentences referred solely to PieceYasu or also to PrimeYasu or one referred solely to PieceYasu while the other referred to both.
I would argue that they would have to refer to the same thing (either way) for them to make sense, but that is purely my feelings on the matter.

Quote:
e problem is that Maria's evil persona never killed anyone and likely represented merely Maria using her immagination to vent her anger.
That is likely true, though she was quite young. However I once thought there was a slim chance she actually lead to Rosa's death in game 3 (the accident), and then was 'laid to rest' by Beato in some odd act of mercy. That was just because I thought Maria seemed thhhiiiiiisss close to snapping in that game.

Actually speaking of game three, I never quite understood who killed Nanjo, I know it has something to do with standing in the doorway and the crime occurring earlier than we thought or something though....

Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...

Quote:
Basically what I think Yasu did was saying 'if you do this, you'll receive money' then thrusted them to do as she said and sent the money anyway. They wouldn't know she had sent the money and obey her.
That is a clever way to look at it, but you could take her thinking that she wouldn't be able to send it afterward to mean various things...

Quote:
We don't really know if the money really came from the gold or from... let's say Kinzo's secret bank account.
Possible, though it makes what was said in game 7 a complete lie (was it there she said she had already converted some of it?)

Quote:
she evidently decided to honour her promise
Assuming she made said promise in the first place, which we don't really know. As for the ten little Indians reference, it certainly is a possible explanation.

Quote:
At this point they should have panicked, realized it wasn't a game and they had been tricked and tattled out what they know.
Though in the gameboards people seemed to believe the game (if it was occuring) till quite late, possibly as they also didn't want to move the "fake" corpses too much. However it is also possible they freaked out and decided to talk about what to do in private.

And lets face it, they were willing to carry out a prank that involved the family legitimately believing other members of the family were gruesomely murdered. I find it suspicious that they would go this far without coercion, which is why I always thought it went a little like in Confessions, where the culprit abandons that farce whenever they need to and uses some other method to keep the players in line. That or kills them.

Quote:
Technically Kumasawa was Yasu's teacher (same as Virgilia was for Beato) and as she might have behind some pranks and loved to spread rumors she might have represented the 'previous Beato'.
"Beatrice" is just a title after all.
I agree with both these points and also think that is why that line about her being the former Beatrice was used. However it breaks no rules (including considering how Yasu officially got the title) to read it the way I stated.
More importantly, Genji wanted Yasu to solve he riddle for Kinzo, whether it was needed or shown or not, I'm guessing he would have prodded her to the answer one way or another.

Quote:
But this would require Kinzo's complicity as he would have to hire Shannon to play Kanon's role and you lack a motive for him to do this.
Well, excepting the fact Kinzo was looking for Beatrice through that house anyway, Genji could have just told Natsuhi that Kinzo ordered it, or encouraged Kinzo to do so. Ep 7 implies Genji was behind Shannon's hiring, and Kannon and Kinzo were only both around together for a year or less anyway.

Quote:
But Eva couldn't know what was in Kirye's mind so her diary can't contain Kirye's motivations just what she had seen.
This is certainly plausible and even likely, I am merely saying that the culprit being revealed to be her family isn't the only thing that could be in the book to make her commit suicide, therefore this line of logic regarding the culprit is not as rock solid as it could be.

I am sure it is probably wrong, but it certainly would be a lovely Bern move to promise the truth of the Rokkenjima (oh no, I finally had to attempt to spell it) incident be in the book, only to read that the truth was "no-one really knows what happened on that day".

Quote:
Escaping from problems is what people with passive stance does instead of trying to resolve their troubles.
True, though her proposed way of avoiding it is still pretty elaborate and requires a pretty big leap on her part, there would be easier ways to do it surely.

Quote:
That scene can be interepreted in many ways... if it even happened.
At the very least it likely happened in all games, so author Yasu felt the need to show her finally growing some backbone. Though I suppose this could be wishful thinking.

Quote:
Yes, it's possible she's actually a psycotic who takes pleasure in hurting others. This solution is generally disliked because Umineko ranted about how displeasing is this sort of solution
I always took the ranting to mean that the answer wasn't simply "Yasu is evil and kills because Yasu is evil and kills", and we were given plenty of motivations for her to be bitter and angry and violent. She can do whatever she likes, as long as she has motive.

Quote:
There are many, many theories about Prime but no one can pin one FOR SURE because there's not enough proofs to make it the only possible solution.
Haha, I agree, though according to Ryu if we just investigated a little more there is.
Though really I just sit around trying to create trouble with well established and likely scenarios, all because of a few of his other ambiguous comments in interview.

Quote:
Basically this was the truth she wanted as she wanted to pin Eva as culprit
I thought that in Ep 4 as from the conversation with, darn how do you spell it, Okinagi? She was considering that maybe Eva wasn't the culprit (bit late to have that convo Ange). Though I agree there were certainly truths she DIDN'T want to hear (despite her promises otherwise).

Quote:
Ah. I'm rather certain that, in the game, escape by the window was the only possible solution
Ah yes, I understood how they carried out the scenario, Kanon switch and all, I guess someone on here must have said that since that route could be blocked with no logic error there must be another way to do it.
As a side note Erika should have seen that crushing defeat coming, Beatrice wasn't going to let her ignore the escape from the room unless she had an even more heinous problem to give her. It's the same as in an argument with me, if I ever ask you to agree to a statement, warning bells better be going off.

Quote:
Well, VERY technically speaking, you might say George could have killed Kanon
I originally thought I was being all clever by thinking George killed Kannon by proposing to Shannon, except the game stated that they died at the same time (something I conveniently ignored apparently). Though we all know how Ryu got around this problem anyway.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 11:52   Link #28343
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Since it's being discussed, one thing I always thought was odd about the logic error closed room was that Featherine seemed to be saying in the meta-conversation with Ange that there was still some move available to solve it after Dlanor sealed the windows of the next room over.

But in the end, the actual solution DID end up involving someone exiting the next room over. Kind of disappointing, honestly.

Edit: Missed this.

Quote:
Actually speaking of game three, I never quite understood who killed Nanjo, I know it has something to do with standing in the doorway and the crime occurring earlier than we thought or something though....
Two possible solutions:
-Rudolf, Hideyoshi or Kyrie wasn't dead when they were discovered. They killed Nanjo, then died themselves for some reason.
-Beatrice killed him, since she can still survive after Shannon and Kanon are dead.

Generally I tend to go for the latter since the former is part of Battler's attempt to solve everything in EP4 where he got pretty much everything else wrong.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 12:46   Link #28344
Joachim13
Finite Witch
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Meta-World of Texas
Age: 19
Regarding Kumasawa culprit theory, is it poosible to follow this line of reasoning:
If Kumasawa had found the gold, then if she were to commit the crimes she would have known to hide in Kuwadorian from everyone else if she didn't kill everyone, or simply found out about the bombs(unlikely though). The only murder I can seriously see Kumasawa pulling off is poisoning the adults after the kids left the conference through their tea or such. Kumasawa could only fulfuill the role of a temporary accompolice, but never the main culprit as she probably wouldn't have died otherwise. EP1 being the exception however as Kumasawa does survive until the second to last murders and the reason she died was because Genji or Nanjo either knew her identity and (a) were accomplices that didn't want her alive, or (b) she attempted to shoot one of them, or even possibly did do so, then the survivor tried to shoot Kumasawa at the same time she tried to shoot them. Thus the twiligt is complete. Then Kanon(who's death was never witnessed was the final culprit that shot Natushi.)
And I can also see Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing, and the way she told her could have easilly made her feel Beatrice was talking through Kumasawa. This can further supported on the theory that since Yasu had talked with Maria as Beatrice about the fantasy characters Maria had related Virgilia, previous Beatrice, with Kumasawa. And EP7 shows Kumasawa acknowledging Yasu as Beatrice, so the witty old lady may have taken part in the tea parties between Maria and Yasu as being possesed by Virgilia, or even being her human incarnation. If Kumasawa had told Maria not to tell anyone that she was actually an age old witch, Maria probably would have stayed silent about it.
Also, in EP4 Kumasawa and Ghoda are sensible accomplices to the culprit as either of them could have randomly poisoned 6 teacups and put some other drug in the other cups, possibly leading to hallucinations. Afterwards Kumasawa has been shown to be a great actress so her freaking out before the cousins could have been a farce, and then neither may have thought that the culprit wouldn't kill them as accomplices in the shed, so they gave that person the key and they were murdered. Then the key would just be tossed back through the window.
I apologize if this has already been brought and is therefore useless information to bog your grey cells.

Opinions/logic errors?
__________________

Last edited by Joachim13; 2012-04-07 at 12:50. Reason: Wall of text...
Joachim13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 13:58   Link #28345
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Kumasawa is not a murderer.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 14:07   Link #28346
battle22
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 18
Send a message via Skype™ to battle22
It is forbidden for a servant to be the culprit!!
battle22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 14:49   Link #28347
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Well... I would not use Van Dine's rules just like that. Because then it would also be fact that it's forbidden for a cigaratte butt to be employed as a detective technique. AND it's forbidden for love scenes, to be in the story.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 15:02   Link #28348
Joachim13
Finite Witch
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: The Meta-World of Texas
Age: 19
Just to clarify, the first half of my thoughts were why Kumasawa can't be the culprit, with the exception of being an accompolice, which is what the second half was. I still think that Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing is probable, reguardless of whether she had any intentions killing someone. Also, I find it weird to question the possibility that Kumasawa has never murdered anyone do to the 5-8 Twilights in EP1. I haven't thought beyond Battler's theory from Alliance with the exception that only person A shot person B, then in self-defense person C shot A, and at the same time A shot C. 2 out of the 3 would have killed another person and I just can't see Nanjo with a gun... Old ladies though can be mean.
__________________
Joachim13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 16:55   Link #28349
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joachim13 View Post
Just to clarify, the first half of my thoughts were why Kumasawa can't be the culprit, with the exception of being an accompolice, which is what the second half was. I still think that Kumasawa being the one to tell Maria to sing is probable, reguardless of whether she had any intentions killing someone. Also, I find it weird to question the possibility that Kumasawa has never murdered anyone do to the 5-8 Twilights in EP1. I haven't thought beyond Battler's theory from Alliance with the exception that only person A shot person B, then in self-defense person C shot A, and at the same time A shot C. 2 out of the 3 would have killed another person and I just can't see Nanjo with a gun... Old ladies though can be mean.
Then who told Maria to hide the guns? If it was "Beatrice", then she could have told her to sing from the beginning...
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 18:01   Link #28350
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
That is likely true, though she was quite young. However I once thought there was a slim chance she actually lead to Rosa's death in game 3 (the accident), and then was 'laid to rest' by Beato in some odd act of mercy. That was just because I thought Maria seemed thhhiiiiiisss close to snapping in that game.
Honestly I doubt Maria carried Rosa out to kill her by pushing her against the fence. I think it's more likely that Yasu instructed her to take Rosa out she did and Yasu killed Rosa and Maria.

However the solution about Rosa and Maria's death wasn't given so anything goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...
Battler was shoot by Eva. Jessica's status is unknown and so is Yasu. Eva escaped in Kuwadorian. Everyone else was already dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Possible, though it makes what was said in game 7 a complete lie (was it there she said she had already converted some of it?)
Game 7 contained some embellishment/lies plus the scene you're referring at is the Tea Party which is generally considered not trustworthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Though in the gameboards people seemed to believe the game (if it was occuring) till quite late, possibly as they also didn't want to move the "fake" corpses too much. However it is also possible they freaked out and decided to talk about what to do in private.
My impression is that on the gameboard all the pieces acts as horribly selfish when Yasu moves them, at least that's the feeling I get from Our confession but that in truth they weren't so bad because, when we see them from Battler's perspective, we see they also had a caring side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
And lets face it, they were willing to carry out a prank that involved the family legitimately believing other members of the family were gruesomely murdered. I find it suspicious that they would go this far without coercion, which is why I always thought it went a little like in Confessions, where the culprit abandons that farce whenever they need to and uses some other method to keep the players in line. That or kills them.
In Ep 5 case it was to 'return the favour' to Natsuhi as she was insisting Kinzo was alive, in Ep 6 it was to prank Erika as she claimed to be a detective.
It was Halloween, the Ushiromiya were used to celebrate it, Kinzo, Eva and Rudolf were said to have fun scaring the cousins. According to various circumstances people might have thought of it as just a game, expecially if many were in on the fact it was just a game (in EP 6 everyone is in minus Erika and Erika doesn't look scared) and they wouldn't have even need to be paid.

"Battler is back and he's a fan of mystery, let's celebrate his coming back with a mystery game!"

Though I think it didn't go that smoothly with everyone some might have just accepted it easily.

The problem would start when someone would die for real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I agree with both these points and also think that is why that line about her being the former Beatrice was used. However it breaks no rules (including considering how Yasu officially got the title) to read it the way I stated.
Most of Umineko can have many intepretations, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
More importantly, Genji wanted Yasu to solve he riddle for Kinzo, whether it was needed or shown or not, I'm guessing he would have prodded her to the answer one way or another.
Genji left most of it to fate. For 8 years he did absolutely nothing about Yasu being recognized by Kinzo. Then he realized Kinzo was about to die and dropped a hint to Shannon. Actually, if he really wanted to force things he might have handed her the whole solution or just told Kinzo the truth.
Shannon didn't say she was trying to solve the epitaph and he couldn't know if she would manage to do so so actually if things went as they were shown what he did was pretty small.
Will though said Yasu was made solve the epitaph and the riddle is supposed to be hard so it's possible she received other hints we don't know about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Well, excepting the fact Kinzo was looking for Beatrice through that house anyway, Genji could have just told Natsuhi that Kinzo ordered it, or encouraged Kinzo to do so. Ep 7 implies Genji was behind Shannon's hiring, and Kannon and Kinzo were only both around together for a year or less anyway.
But why Genji should have asked Shannon to play Kanon's role in front of Kinzo?
In the same way if Shannon didn't know she was Kinzo's daughter and heir and therefore Genji's 'master' is unlikely she would have asked him to let her play a double role as it would have been trickery toward Genji's master to whom he was believed to be very loyal.
The easy answer is: Shannon created an imaginary brother then Kinzo died, Natsuhi needed to hide the thing when the siblings were around so in order not to lower the number of the servants around and at the same time to not have servants that could be questioned by the siblings about facts that could lead them to guess Kinzo is dead she asked Shannon to play that extra role (or Shannon suggested it either to her or to Genji). So all the 'let's hide Kinzo's death group' would be aware of this and help keeping up the illusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
This is certainly plausible and even likely, I am merely saying that the culprit being revealed to be her family isn't the only thing that could be in the book to make her commit suicide, therefore this line of logic regarding the culprit is not as rock solid as it could be.
Surely there can be other truths she might have wanted to overwrite but Umineko clearly pointed to her fear that her parents and Battler were involved in the murder and to her fear her hope for someone to be back was going to be mooth. If it's something else there's no hints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
At the very least it likely happened in all games, so author Yasu felt the need to show her finally growing some backbone. Though I suppose this could be wishful thinking.
No, Yasu/Shannon broke the mirror only in Ep 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I always took the ranting to mean that the answer wasn't simply "Yasu is evil and kills because Yasu is evil and kills", and we were given plenty of motivations for her to be bitter and angry and violent. She can do whatever she likes, as long as she has motive.
We fall back in 'the motive is weak as it would require her to be willing to kill just to get Battler's attention'... which is pretty crazy...
While some of the murders can fall in the revenge section for some things go too much out of proportion to consider revenge an acceptable motive.

Gohda could put her in troubles so let's kill him?
She would never manage to love Jessica/George so let's kill them (force them to be part of her suicide scheme)?
Hideyoshi was Eva's husband and Eva was against her marrying George?
Maria... well she would be a orphan after she killed Rosa who actually never did something against her though she beat Maria so let's kill her as well?

Those motives are crazy though they can still be 'motives'.
But if the solution is Yasu is mad it becomes unsatisfing, possible but unsatisfing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Haha, I agree, though according to Ryu if we just investigated a little more there is.
Again it's Ryukishi's opinion and for it to have some basis he should at least have tested it on many people since his hints were often pretty vague.

For example pick up the "Yasu is the daughter of Beato 2" theory. It's possible to form another theory that said that "Yasu believed/was made believe she was the daughter of Beato 2 but actually this isn't true". It was the topic of a discussion some posts ago.
If Yasu isn't Kinzo's legittimate heir you can suspect that... let's say Genji tricked her into thinking so for his own ends and that he's actually the mastermind behind the tragedy and even managed to escape with some money he converted.

Yasu survived and tralized she'd been tricked sos he wrote the tales feeling guilty for what had happened.

Eva also was tricked into doing/thinking something by Genji so she's keeping silent.

Though this theory for Prime is likely not the right one (even if on Prime Knox and Van Dine shouldn't work I think Ryukishi still intended for the servants not to be the culprits) it is possible to form it with the hints given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Though really I just sit around trying to create trouble with well established and likely scenarios, all because of a few of his other ambiguous comments in interview.
Oh I love creating scenarios as well, it's probably the part I like the most about Umineko... though at the same time I get many of the scenarios I've fun creating couldn't possibly be the intended solution... even if they work.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 19:57   Link #28351
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
Since it's being discussed, one thing I always thought was odd about the logic error closed room was that Featherine seemed to be saying in the meta-conversation with Ange that there was still some move available to solve it after Dlanor sealed the windows of the next room over.
THAT was the scene I was thinking of, I knew I read it somewhere. So I guess no-one found another solution?

Quote:
Two possible solutions:
And how did you get around the truth that only Jessica and Nanjo where in the room? the doorway and still point blank? Or the crime of killing Battler being the one Beato referred to in her red truth?

Also, if it WAS Beato who killed him, it brings a whole new twisted edge to the scene where Kannon then leads Jessica to safety.

Quote:
Regarding Kumasawa culprit theory
I don't really think she is a culprit, her being an accomplice is pretty much undeniable. However, just how much did she lie about for how long do you think? I'd say if she were to have solved the riddle at some point, it may explain why she kept up the farce for so long, maybe she was being paid to keep it all a secret. It's not like she hasn't kept a few big and even some terrible secrets in the past.
Quote:
it's forbidden for a cigaratte butt to be employed as a detective technique
.

Well, apart from the fact we can suspect Ryu only followed the Van Dine he mentioned, another point about that is, it was likely wrong in implicating Eva as the killer.

Quote:
AND it's forbidden for love scenes, to be in the story.
My gosh I wish this had been true by some of the later games, why couldn't George have disappeared pre-proposal. It would have saved me having to read that scene again AND Beato could have taunted the heck out of Shannon (take THAT weaker personality). Furthermore, Ryu said himself if he followed all of Van Dine's rules there wouldn't have been any heart in the story, hence the glossing.

Quote:
then she could have told her to sing from the beginning
Aside from the fact that no matter who killed who or told who to sing, Beato probably just locked the door after walking out, or Maria did it for her. Didn't Will have a cryptic truth about Maria's song I never quite understood? Like it being false? Maybe Maria had time to walk away from the wall what with the family all walking so slowly.

Quote:
Honestly I doubt Maria carried Rosa out to kill her by pushing her against the fence
It is raining, all she needs to do is be off balance to slip. Besides, don't forget how strong Ryu made Satako whenever she snapped.


Quote:
The Tea Party which is generally considered not trustworthy.
Yet "Truth of a sort" Witch-Hunter Sensai.

Quote:
I get from Our confession but that in truth they weren't so bad
The message I got from those later games is just because the family conference was a stressful time, and this time they were all in need of money, and MAYBE they acted selfishly or foolishly at some point, doesn't mean they were 100% bad. For example, we know it is likely Kinzo did become bitter and crazy towards the end, doesn't mean he didn't used to be a wonderful grandfather. The point of that game, for me, was to show that in real life they were more balanced, and weren't just "I am evil and greedy so I will kill". However, that doesn't mean they couldn't be coerced or have had a weak moment (we know from Higurashi that Ryu believes human beings capable of pretty bad things).

Quote:
'return the favour' to Natsuhi as she was insisting Kinzo was alive
My problem with this was always how they got Jessica to play along. This wasn't a game for Battler, this wasn't to show up some bratty detective, this was a horrible prank to convince her mother she had died, to make her reveal a secret Jessica didn't know. It is a bit sus....

Quote:
Most of Umineko can have many intepretations, yes.
If it didn't, would this board still be active at all after the series had ended?
Darn Ryu nailed that one on the head.

Quote:
hard so it's possible she received other hints we don't know about.
I am sure Genji could have arranged it as needs be. He clearly wanted her to do it before Kinzo died, but as she was brought in before the epitaph, I guess he didn't always have that feeling.

Quote:
'let's hide Kinzo's death group' would be aware of this and help keeping up the illusion.
The problem is she didn't seem to have much knowledge of it during the games. Either she was that desperate to keep Kinzo's death a secret (for some reason Ryu said it is what allowed the murders of the first game to go on didn't he?) or she left briefing the servants involved to Genji. I am pretty sure timeline wise, Kannon was aroung for some point before Kinzo died.

Though it would add an interesting layer as to why Kannon initially denied Jessica's love, if in the beginning (emphasis there), even Yasu thought of him as not a real person. Then he gained life through (a rather inferior as we know) love...

Quote:
for someone to be back was going to be mooth. If it's something else there's no hints.
Hence why I usually stress the latter one. Though I wouldn't say there were NO hints. I mean, wouldn't it be a nice troll move if after her long journey, the diary had the same message that Eva left her with which caused her to head up to the roof in the first place?

Not likely, but you could say it was hinted at.

Quote:
No, Yasu/Shannon broke the mirror only in Ep 2.
I was pretty sure Beato referenced the mirror breaking and her getting her powers back in other games as well. As it happened before the game board it COULD be something that happened in every world, and I always took that it was sort of synonymous with the shrine going bye bye.

Quote:
We fall back in 'the motive is weak as it would require her to be willing to kill just to get Battler's attention'
I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)

Quote:
gain it's Ryukishi's opinion and for it to have some basis he should at least have tested it on many people since his hints were often pretty vague.
Hence crossing fingers. But isn't it sort of fun knowing he believes he has pretty much written down the answer. In the past, his reasoning as to how you narrow down the possibilities is that only 1 ties absolutely everything together, but we know there should be at least two solutions to pivot around in this case.

Which reminds me, what DO you guys think the Beato/Ange pivot answers are? I was really hoping Beato's wasn't that magic did it all, because really she was the witch of pretending magic did it all.

And if you really believe that Yasu didn't have a strong enough motive, then why did Ange (through Ep 7 and 8) think she was trying to protect her? Also, wasn't the message of a lot of Ryu's games something about how all these fights over money were silly, Rosa realising she should have just fled the bomb, and Lamba saying money is hollow compared to loosing a family. Maybe what they are trying to say is through some foolish action of Kyrie and Rudolf, almost everyone died because they were all fighting over the money...



As a final note, from Memoirs of Lamba we know she made Beato a witch after she met Takano, but also she stated she trapped Bern with a gameboard she had borrowed from Beato. This is either poor planning on Ryu's part, or we can work out the exact timing of the window in which that could occur.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 21:32   Link #28352
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
It is raining, all she needs to do is be off balance to slip.
I'm not saying she couldn't cause her to lose balance, just that I don't believe Maria lead Rosa out with the purpose to kill her.
If you go and say it was an incident I can believe it, but if it was a planned murder then no, I don't really believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Yet "Truth of a sort" Witch-Hunter Sensai.
I know but this doesn't really help guessing what's truly true in it as it apparently isn't the solution of what had happened in Prime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
The message I got from those later games is just because the family conference was a stressful time, and this time they were all in need of money, and MAYBE they acted selfishly or foolishly at some point, doesn't mean they were 100% bad.
Yes but apparently in Our confession the idea was to depict them as 'bad', which might have clashed with having Battler as narrator as he doesn't seem to believe they were bad.
So we've Battler describing them as nice and then we see them act as definitely not nice people. Either Battler was... well completely wrong in his judgement or this was the result of placing together 2 different opinions.

... I'm not sure I'm explaining this clearly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
My problem with this was always how they got Jessica to play along. This wasn't a game for Battler, this wasn't to show up some bratty detective, this was a horrible prank to convince her mother she had died, to make her reveal a secret Jessica didn't know. It is a bit sus....
Well, we don't know what Jessica was told or who she was thinking to prank. Actually it's possible she played death in front of Battler... or maybe not even that. Jessica and Co were instructed to leave the room and go in... let's call it place X, which can be anywhere people didn't search them with Rosa then the adults staged the whole thing. Erika didn't check the corpses so we don't even know if they were still under the covers when she got in or where replaced with pillows just in case.

Jessica wouldn't even know Battler and Co are saying to her mother they saw her dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
If it didn't, would this board still be active at all after the series had ended?
Darn Ryu nailed that one on the head.
Who knows? Some fandoms go on for years after the series ended, some others die with it. Surely though we would be theorizing a lot less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I am sure Genji could have arranged it as needs be. He clearly wanted her to do it before Kinzo died, but as she was brought in before the epitaph, I guess he didn't always have that feeling.
Well, considering apparently Yasu managed to solve the epitaph short before Kinzo were to die Genji either miscalculated how serious Kinzo's conditions were or wasn't that desperate to have her solve the epitaph.

But I'm not that fond of Genji. It's true he said he wanted to protect Yasu from becoming Kinzo's new lover interest but basically let her grow as a orphan and as a servant in a home that should have been her own as well.
Yasu longs quite a lot for acceptance and love and Genji's solution didn't provide her those.
I would have preferred if he had adopted her or have her adopted by someone else (Kumasawa, Nanjo, someone else) so that she would have a family and might grow up like a normal kid.
Even Natsuhi said that she was too young to work yet, as she was hired, she had to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
The problem is she didn't seem to have much knowledge of it during the games. Either she was that desperate to keep Kinzo's death a secret (for some reason Ryu said it is what allowed the murders of the first game to go on didn't he?)
I don't remember Ryukishi saying this but it can be my memory is failing me.
No one shows knowledge about Shannon and Kanon being the same person... the issue is addressed only in Chiru and in a veiled manner.

Natsuhi however is a careful planner and a person who tends to control everything that happens in her house. It's hard to picture her missing that Kanon's origins are suspicious... plus again there's the issue of Kanon having to disappear when Shannon is around... and the problem of their working schedules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I am pretty sure timeline wise, Kannon was aroung for some point before Kinzo died.
It can't be proved if Kanon was really around or it was a fantasy like Natsuhi drinking tea with Beato.
It was said Yasu created it prior to Kinzo's death but we've no info on when he took a solid body.

Note that in the beginning it was Shannon that was Yasu's imaginary friend but to the outside world they were one and the same. There weren't Shannon and Yasu, just a person with the blessed name of Shannon and the nick of Yasu.

For Kanon in the beginning it can have been the same. He was just Yasu/Shannon immaginary friend, the same as Gaap.
Then Shannon got the chance to give him a more real existence and caught it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Hence why I usually stress the latter one. Though I wouldn't say there were NO hints. I mean, wouldn't it be a nice troll move if after her long journey, the diary had the same message that Eva left her with which caused her to head up to the roof in the first place?

Not likely, but you could say it was hinted at.
Technically it's implied that Ange should have gone on the roof after she read the diary, not just after she talked with Eva. Though as Ep 4 completely skipped the existence of the diary I guess one can have the feeling she went there after talking with Eva.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)
I don't think it's weak I think that if a person is willing to kill for this reason she had fallen into madness. Yasu will gain nothing from killing all those people. It won't give her a body capable to love, it won't give her a chance for a happy life with Battler.
When Kirye says she wanted to kill Asumu is because in that way she hoped to get Rudolf. In short from killing someone she was hoping for a possible gain.

She hinted she was still a bit out of it at that time due to her grief but her murdering plan has a logic. Yasu hasn't.

As soon as she kills someone she buys a ticket for the jail.
Her actions cause pain and fear that not everyone deserve and yet she administer them equally.

Going back to 10 little indians the murderer killed first the ones that deserves as little pain as possible so that they wouldn't have to deal with the fear their situation created and then the complete bastards.

In Umineko this isn't done.
Maria lives till the last twilight or dies at the second.
Same for Jessica.
Gohda died in different twilights as well.

As Battler figured out the culprit can't hate them all equally yet in her games Yasu deals with everyone (apart from Battler) equally comparing Natsuhi's sin (trying to kill her) to Jessica and Maria... whatever they did wrong.

If this happened in real life as well it's maddness and that's unsatisfing as far as I'm involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
And if you really believe that Yasu didn't have a strong enough motive, then why did Ange (through Ep 7 and 8) think she was trying to protect her?
Hum... Yasu wasn't protecting Ange, she was sending a message to 'someone' in hope that someone would find the solution to her heart and understand her.
It was Eva who was trying to protect her.

Beatro tries to 'protect' Ange in Ep 8 but Ep 8 likely is just Ange's fantasy of some sort and anyway Beato was doing it due to Battler's request.

If Yasu became Ikuko and she did something to protect Ange it might be due to the fact she cared about Toya


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
As a final note, from Memoirs of Lamba we know she made Beato a witch after she met Takano, but also she stated she trapped Bern with a gameboard she had borrowed from Beato. This is either poor planning on Ryu's part, or we can work out the exact timing of the window in which that could occur.
I need to re-read that tip but didn't she mean she is trapping Bern in Beato's gameboard due to the game Beato is having with Battler?

Though I've read that tip quite a bit ago so I might remember wrong...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-07, 23:54   Link #28353
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I guess that depends on A if you think the obsessional love of a broken person is weak (broken as in, life of loneliness and rejection followed by six years of torture and living with self hatred because it is probably her body's inability to love that always gets in her way)
I'd like to point out one of my favorite arguments for an innocent murder game. It's the epitaph:

Quote:
The Witch will praise the wise, and should bestow four treasures.
One shall be, all the gold from the Golden Land.
One shall be, the resurrection of the souls of all the dead.
One shall be, even the resurrection of the lost love.
One shall be, to put the Witch to sleep for all time.
"all the gold from the Golden Land" is pretty obvious: At the end of the game, Yasu is to give away the hidden stash of gold.

"the resurrection of the souls of all the dead" is a 'spell' that in real world terms can only be achieved if the deaths were fake in the first place.

"the resurrection of the lost love" is the only part that Yasu can't control. This is the part she hopes to 'magically' come true.

"to put the Witch to sleep for all time" wraps it up. Yasu will reveal everything and retire from her role as Beatrice.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 02:32   Link #28354
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
True, but she never wrote the epitaph. Plus she has nothing to gain from its solving.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 02:40   Link #28355
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
If you want more evidence for a fake murder game...



Quote:
And how did you get around the truth that only Jessica and Nanjo where in the room? the doorway and still point blank? Or the crime of killing Battler being the one Beato referred to in her red truth?
It was shown in the fantasy scene. Someone knocked on the door, Nanjo opened it, the killer (whoever it was) shot him at point-blank. Easy.

I'm not sure what your last sentence is talking about.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 02:43   Link #28356
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
I need to re-read that tip but didn't she mean she is trapping Bern in Beato's gameboard due to the game Beato is having with Battler?

Though I've read that tip quite a bit ago so I might remember wrong...
It was in a tea party, not a TIP I think. Or maybe a metaworld conversation.

Quote:
Beatro tries to 'protect' Ange in Ep 8 but Ep 8 likely is just Ange's fantasy of some sort and anyway Beato was doing it due to Battler's request.
Hmm, that seems like a brush-off right there.

Quote:
Maria lives till the last twilight or dies at the second.
That is because she doesn't want to kill her, and I think usually someone else does.

Quote:
I don't remember Ryukishi saying this but it can be my memory is failing me.
I thought it was said somewhere in a game, but then again, may have been on here...

Quote:
just that I don't believe Maria lead Rosa out with the purpose to kill her.
Oh I just meant I could have seen her having a moment of anger and pushing her mother. No malicious aforethought, just a lot of screaming afterward.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 05:25   Link #28357
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
THAT was the scene I was thinking of, I knew I read it somewhere. So I guess no-one found another solution?
Just reread the scene in question, I think I have a better understanding of it now.
Spoiler for My wordy, wordy theory:
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 06:48   Link #28358
goldendust
Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Re-reading Ep7, Will said that Claire did not think that anyone would understand her motive hence why Lion was there. So should we not try to understand her motive or rather that her motive was too twisted for other people to understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Also in relation to game three, was everyone killed by something other than the bomb at the end? I seem to remember they were. If not the red "Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board (This is in response to any factor such as animals or robots that might have been involved.)" becomes a bit iffy...
Well if the bomb is triggered by a human, doesn't that count as a human factor? The explosives activate by a human flipping a switch is no different then someone pulling a trigger of a gun. The only difference is the effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I'd like to point out one of my favorite arguments for an innocent murder game. It's the epitaph:
That is a valid interpretation.

Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.
goldendust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 09:21   Link #28359
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.
My explanation is that's a metaphore that refers to Yasu's love and identity.
Beato will sort of reconstruct Yasu because as of now Yasu is split into who she's supposed to be (Shannon), who she'd like to be (Beato), and who she'd like to have around (Gaap, Ronove, Kanon).
I see it as an 'as of now I can't fulfil my wishes and love but one day I'll manage to be who I wish and have the love story I'll wish'.
She also talks about how only she could see Beato (her true self) but how others might be able to love Beato and therefore see her, so I take this as a way to say that other will also see the real Yasu and love her.

Though I guess this is just my interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Hmm, that seems like a brush-off right there.
It's not supposed to be.
An interpretation is that the episodes are basically inner fantasies.
Generally EP 1-7 are thought to be Toya's reconstructions/dreams/reinterpretation of what he remembers and write.
EP 8 instead looks more like Ange's fantasy.

In shor the meta battle became a magical representation of the thoughts going on in a certain character head, or if you want a metaphorical representation of them.
So Battler in EP 8 becomes the part of Ange that wants to love and trust her family while Bern represent the most cinical part of her, the one that believes there will be no miracle and that the truth is unpleasant.
The fight between Battler and Bern represent the confusion inside Ange who, in the end, is the only one who can decide who'll prevail and make a choice.
And in the end you see her sort of aknowledging this as she could chose if turn on or off Beato (it's sort of fun to see Ange making Beato disappear).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
That is because she doesn't want to kill her, and I think usually someone else does.
If it's Yasu that turns on the bomb she knows she'll kill her in the end and making her live longer can cause her to experience more pain and fear.
Though Maria doesn't seem that scared she suffers when other argues or refuse to believe her.
And in EP 4 it's likely Yasu who killed Maria by poison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Oh I just meant I could have seen her having a moment of anger and pushing her mother. No malicious aforethought, just a lot of screaming afterward.
If it was an incident we don't really have EvilMaria.
To clarify things: I can't see Maria pushing Rosa on purpose so that she'll fall, stab herself and die. If however Maria pushed her because Rosa was hurting her I'm fine with this interpretation, though I don't like it much as it leaves us with a second culprit to discover and I've already told you why I don't like the multiple culprit theory in the games (in Rokkenjima Prime though things could have gone differently).
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-04-08, 11:10   Link #28360
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
That is a valid interpretation.

Although I do wonder in terms of the "innocent murder game" theory, how do you interpret in EP6 where Yasuda tells Beatrice that one day she will destroy everything and revive everything as well bring blessing to all of the lovers.
Yasuda in EP6? I don't remember such a scene. Anyway, it sounds just like murder game "kill" and "revive" to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Just reread the scene in question, I think I have a better understanding of it now.
Spoiler for My wordy, wordy theory:
Yeah that's how I thought of it, too, that it was foreshadowing for the move Beatrice did make. Although I never once thought that "never being able to use the move again" implied that it was used before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've already told you why I don't like the multiple culprit theory in the games (in Rokkenjima Prime though things could have gone differently).
I think multiple culprits might make sense for Banquet, at least, since Battler and Nanjo were killed by different people.

I still think the scene where Eva shoots Battler is weird, though.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.