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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 14 Rating
Perfect 10 72 53.73%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 35 26.12%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 15.67%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 2.99%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.75%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.75%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-08, 09:39   Link #101
KilluaX90
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Well, a solid episode to kick off the 2nd season.

Everything was great except for the fight against Caster, which was quite underwhelming compared to the LN in my opinion. If I recall it right, Rider's attacks were supposed to blow off chunks of the monster's body, and Gil's 4 NPs should have destroy a third of its body.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-04-08 at 10:33. Reason: let's not mention Ea's true nature yet, shall we?
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:08   Link #102
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by HiddenMessage View Post
Can Avalon's immortal granting ability be used to cure Saber's unhealable wound?
That's a touch question because of the nature of Lancer's Noble Phantasm. I think that's something we could debate against forever unless we know about Lancer's NP's strengths and limitations.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-04-08 at 10:33. Reason: let's not mention Ea's true nature yet, shall we?
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:14   Link #103
Yuna Amakura
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I think I'm getting a little annoyed by the pacing too. Too many things are being prolonged or put on the back burner that really shouldn't be. For example, I was getting excited when Kiritsugu mentioned ending the fight with Excalibur, but then he reminds me of the fact that Saber is inhibited by the dumb fucking cursed thumb plot armor bullshit that should have never happened in the first place. Every servant summoned in this series is a fucking monster and has all kinds of tricks up their sleeve. Why did they have to nerf the most straightforward fighter of them all? She's just getting her ass handed to her in every appearance.

I didn't feel any sense of tension or plot progression from this episode. Caster feels more like a distraction than a legitimate threat, and he's severely overstayed his welcome. Outside of Ryunosuke's assassination, nothing important really happened in this episode. But since his death didn't do shit to stop Caster, that didn't amount to much either much either.
You summed up everything I had in mind when I was watching this episode.

As for Saber being nerfed, it always happens. F S/N was like that as well and I found the excuse to be stupid and boring as hell. Geez, if you want to create a "monster" character, stop trying to nerf his habilities.
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:33   Link #104
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That's exactly the very reason why they have to "nerf" Saber, considering it would just be ridiculous to have her around without winning the war if she is that powerful.
However convulated the reason why she is gimped may be, the situation isn't farfetched, and actually gives more edge to strategy and tactics, instead a plain firepower.

Otherwise, we are just back again to fights being straightforward and exempt of subtle course of actions, the likes which Zero really shouldn't have in contrast to SN.
Hell, if you question Saber's state, then we should all question why Gil didn't win the war yet, by the very same logic.
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:35   Link #105
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It was also interesting to know Tokiomi's reasons for giving Sakura away, and of course, Kariya is unwilling to accept them.
The problem is that they're both right. Tokiomi was right to allow another family to adopt Sakura, as otherwise her life would've been pretty bad under the Mage Association's thumb and never living up to her potential. But Kariya was right that giving her to Zouken was akin to giving her to the devil.

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He can't find a lamp post that's tall enough.
What? I'm talking about Gil's flying machine, not Berserker taking control of a fighter jet.
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:44   Link #106
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Zouken being the one adopting Sakura was a huge issue for Kariya, that's for sure.
However, what revolts Kariya even more was the fact Tokiomi literally discarded his humanity when it is about his children. Instead, all that matters are the family prestige/bloodline and the magus potential lying within Rin and Sakura.

Which not only brand both girls are mere "descendant" for the family instead of real relatives, but also put emphasis on magus deeds importance, instead of what they are as humans, by extention: disregarding their feelings, of what they want to do. Heck, it doesn't seem Tokiomi has even the slightest idea that Sakura "might want to be a mere normal human".

Past the issue with the mage association, Tokiomi speech confirms he doesn't exactly pay heed to what the girls want to do, which what enrages Kariya the most (hence his huge reaction to the word "rabble").
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:48   Link #107
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did not expect to see aerial combat... that was brilliant, King Gil does not need seat belt^^

again the OP and ED songs are nice

and most of all, glad to see this would-be-classic show continues
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Old 2012-04-08, 10:59   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
After this episode, I'm still wondering how in the world Gilgamesh got a spaceship or whatever that aircraft was. It kinda reminded me of the aircrafts they used in the movie John Carter (if anyone has seen it).
Well, Gil's GoB contains just about every single treasure there is. Thus, the reason why he has that protoss airship is probably attributed to the fact that such an ancient aircraft would be considered a treasure for it's time. (The man even has a cellar in his gil-damned GoB.)

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What? I'm talking about Gil's flying machine, not Berserker taking control of a fighter jet.
Well, if you remembered episode 4, Gilgamesh wanted to stand above everyone... The mere fact that he was brought to the same (standing) level as Berserker pissed him off like crap...
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Old 2012-04-08, 11:23   Link #109
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Heck, it doesn't seem Tokiomi has even the slightest idea that Sakura "might want to be a mere normal human".

Past the issue with the mage association, Tokiomi speech confirms he doesn't exactly pay heed to what the girls want to do, which what enrages Kariya the most (hence his huge reaction to the word "rabble").
Given their potential, I don't think the Mage Association would allow them to live normal lives even if Tokiomi would personally allow it. Depending on just how much talent they actually have, if they weren't under a magi family's protection (as Tokiomi put it), they could probably expect a Sealing Designation from the Mage Association.

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Originally Posted by Goddess Madoka View Post
Well, if you remembered episode 4, Gilgamesh wanted to stand above everyone... The mere fact that he was brought to the same (standing) level as Berserker pissed him off like crap...
I'm talking more along the lines of "What made Urobuchi even think of such a thing to put it in the story", not "Why would he want one".
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Old 2012-04-08, 11:26   Link #110
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Bringing the issue with the Mage Association would definitely "excuse" Tokiomi to some extent, but the problem is actually evident: that alone isn't even a problem, since he doesn't imagine her children as humans but magus instead.
Kariya's reaction would definitely be more on the mild spectrum if the MA was brought out, but here, that "magus path centric" speech just made Kariya losing it. Thus the completel absence of "human premise" from Tokiomi.
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Old 2012-04-08, 11:28   Link #111
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Pretty good start to the second half. Didn't miss a beat off of how the first season ended and that's very important and not something a lot of series seem capable of doing these days it feels. Hell some shows I saw this year stumbled into their second half and it wasn't even a split cour (coughguiltycrownhrmph). Also feel it's worth mentioning that there hasn't been a premiere yet this season that I've seen (perhaps with the sole exception of Kuroko's Basketball) where I haven't been intrigued by the art style and felt it was fairly unique to that particular series in a way that gave it added flavor and this one is no different. All anime this season seem to be pretty high on visual detail compared to the norm (not just fluidity but actual level of detail in each frame) and good directing.
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Old 2012-04-08, 11:38   Link #112
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I'm talking more along the lines of "What made Urobuchi even think of such a thing to put it in the story", not "Why would he want one".
It's not like ancient flying machines are something new. There are several that are mentioned in Hindu mythology. Gil possessing one doesn't seem all that odd seeing as he owns nearly everything else.
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Old 2012-04-08, 12:25   Link #113
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It's not like ancient flying machines are something new. There are several that are mentioned in Hindu mythology. Gil possessing one doesn't seem all that odd seeing as he owns nearly everything else.
Yeah the vimanas are something quite popular, especially amongs those believing in prae-astronautic theories (like Dänicken and the other ancient alien guys), similar to the "UFO" of Ezekiel in the bible. The ancient myths of India written in sanskrit are full of vimanas and the gods driving them. Since Gil practically owned the world at this time it's not farfetched to assume he also owned one of these, like all the other great gods back then .
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Old 2012-04-08, 12:40   Link #114
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That's exactly the very reason why they have to "nerf" Saber, considering it would just be ridiculous to have her around without winning the war if she is that powerful.
However convulated the reason why she is gimped may be, the situation isn't farfetched, and actually gives more edge to strategy and tactics, instead a plain firepower.

Otherwise, we are just back again to fights being straightforward and exempt of subtle course of actions, the likes which Zero really shouldn't have in contrast to SN.
Hell, if you question Saber's state, then we should all question why Gil didn't win the war yet, by the very same logic.
That's exactly my point. If you want to create a ridiculously powerful character, deal with the consequences of doing such a thing instead of creating silly excuses in order to nerf him.

And Gilgamesh already stated he does not care that much for the war, didn't he? Another excuse but at least not a "I'm the most powerful servant ever...oh wait, someone just nerfed me again. Now I'm going to be useless for half of the series" one.
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Old 2012-04-08, 12:45   Link #115
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That's exactly my point. If you want to create a ridiculously powerful character, deal with the consequences of doing such a thing instead of creating silly excuses in order to nerf him.

And Gilgamesh already stated he does not care that much for the war, didn't he? Another excuse but at least not a "I'm the most powerful servant ever...oh wait, someone just nerfed me again. Now I'm going to be useless for half of the series" one.
Given the nature of the series, it makes more sense for a strong character to get weakened through some effect and regain their strength than it would to start out weak and become stronger. These are supposed to be legendary spirits. They shouldn't be able to really get any stronger than they already were outside of better mana sources/Masters. Or what, would you rather it be 100% realistic and have them be no stronger than a normal swordsman like you'd see in Monty Python?
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Old 2012-04-08, 12:45   Link #116
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The problem is that there is -no way- for them to change Saber, because she is already established in that fashion in FSN. Should they change her abilities, you can be sure a gigantic uproar would be caused as result: it wouldn't fit the lore nor the established facts from the original series.
Therefore, in order to put every characters on an even footing, Urobuchi had to "nerf" Saber a way or another, which actually makes sense to some extent.

As for gilgamesh, I'm sorry, but the same logic would be applied to him as well: his objective is quite simple and his arrogance was portrayed well enough the previous episodes: He does not want to allow anyone unworthy to reach the grail, and act according to his own beliefs. Aside of that, he is a sitting duck despite he could potentially kill all of them since they are, by default, supposed to be unworthy to begin with, yet remain passive. It is basically the same as the "nerf": Gil is left to a background role (for the better, considering Kotomine), despite he could basically turn the tide of the events.
he has his full abilities but doesn't exploit them at all, which is basically the same as the nerf: a reason for the characters not being able/willing to display all their full strength for a sound reason.
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Old 2012-04-08, 13:02   Link #117
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The same logic could be applied to even Rider, he could've surprised any of them with his reality marble and taken them him if he so wished.

Or why didn't caster summon his thing sooner and start feeding on people.

Sure Saber is nerfed, but i think people are a little confused if they think it would be smart to be blindly spamming excalibur every chance she got. There are some servants/masters in this universe that could majorly screw her over if they know about it.
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Old 2012-04-08, 13:07   Link #118
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Well, they already know her identity, although whilst it could potentially hurt the setting of having a excaliblast spam, the other point also bring much more interesting situations and less convulated "power level".
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Old 2012-04-08, 13:14   Link #119
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On Saber: I don't mind her being a bit "nerfed" for awhile as long as she eventually gets to cut loose at full power and actually look like the main protagonist servant for two or three episodes. If ufotable handles this well, then it'll feel like a great payoff after a long stretch of Saber struggling a bit.


On Tokiomi: You know, I do think the guy genuinely loves his two daughters, and that he's made choices that he sincerely believes is in their best interests. It's certainly fair to say he's misguided, but I think the arguments against him are perhaps going a bit too far. I don't think the guy is a heartless bastard (he typically comes across as being on Valium, but that's a separate issue ). He's just working within a clan society and worldview that's very alien to most people, so most people would naturally disagree with him a lot.

It's not that his heart is in the wrong place, it's that he's completely caught up in a corrupt system that's similarly corrupted his thinking.
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Old 2012-04-08, 13:28   Link #120
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More than anything, I'd be VERY annoyed if Saber gained access to Avalon anyway. It wouldn't make for a particularly interesting battle when you have someone who is freaking impervious to any attack, and is able to beam-spam by temporarily leaving it (I'm obviously exaggerating, but the point stands that Saber would be OP).

In a war where the stakes are very high I want to see characters struggle and strive to achieve what they want. One way of achieving this is to gimp a character that would otherwise be too strong or to achieve a relative balance in strengths between characters (whether this means one character is better at one thing than another, or all are fairly equal).

--------------------------------

On another note, I am far, far more impressed with characters who demonstrate power through skill rather than through... power.

Let me clarify, I don't find Gilgamesh all that impressive in spite of his Ea, Gates of Babylon, or whatever.

On the other hand, Berserker DO NOT possess immediately broken abilities and must adapt accordingly. They adapt by showing us amazing display of purely distilled raw skill.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-04-08 at 13:42. Reason: the second half of the post is a tad too revealing. By all means, use the spoiler thread for more details.
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