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Old 2012-03-04, 02:34   Link #201
kitsunisan
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
She has trouble controlling her inner feelings in general. When Lawrence slapped her hand, she spent hours getting angrier and angrier about it (even though she knew better).
From what I remember, Holo regarded that as an inconsequential thing. She was upset that Lawrence would think she was mad at him for "brushing against her hand".
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
My best guess as to WHY she's afraid of that is this: she can't "grow old" with Lawrence. Unless she was lying, that's the only form she can take. He'll age, but she won't.
I remember her saying she isn't afraid of Lawrence growing old, that she's dealt with death enough, she's "no stranger to death".
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Old 2012-03-04, 10:57   Link #202
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From what I remember, Holo regarded that as an inconsequential thing. She was upset that Lawrence would think she was mad at him for "brushing against her hand".
As she put it, she "wanted" to get angry with him, but when she saw the look on his face, she just couldn't. She really was angry, but had no way to vent that anger. So she just stewed in it, and finally broke down and cried when he kept apologizing to her.. she just couldn't take it.

I think she joked about "getting mad that he thinks she's mad" and such, but not for that particular episode (could be wrong).

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Originally Posted by kitsunisan View Post
I remember her saying she isn't afraid of Lawrence growing old, that she's dealt with death enough, she's "no stranger to death".
As she put it, she's not afraid of his actual death (the event), but rather the whole tail-end of a relationship. So it stands to reason that she's afraid of growing reliant on him, which will only make her more lonely after he dies. The actual death isn't the issue, it's what comes after that.
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Old 2012-03-04, 13:37   Link #203
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
I'm with Rajura, but the nuances are a bit more complex.

In volume 4, Holo and Lawrence are still thinking that it's over once they reach Yoitsu, and are consciously avoiding the "what happens after that?" question because they don't expect to stay together, even if they want to. So when Lawrence slips up, it forces him to ask that taboo question, even if Holo has no answer. She's upset because of that - she can't make a choice, she has no answer to give him, it's just a painful reminder of that inevitability, and all she can do is forcefully bury the issue again.

In volume 5, she's afraid that his softness is spoiling their relationship, by making it progress too quickly. She doesn't want to face the part of the relationship that comes after the initial "high", and seems to consider it a downhill slope to an inevitably painful end. So she asks him to let her go. But she's so obviously miserable about it that he can't let her go yet, especially since she begs him to be selfish for a change (oh, the irony).

My best guess as to WHY she's afraid of that is this: she can't "grow old" with Lawrence. Unless she was lying, that's the only form she can take. He'll age, but she won't. It'll probably be pretty tough when other people notice that unless he keeps her hidden (not fun or fair to her) or gives up his dream to stay in one place with a shop (which isn't fair to him).
Thanks for expounding; I was limited for time in my response.

I think you are pretty spot-on.
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Old 2012-03-04, 18:35   Link #204
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Thanks, guys. That really helps to clear things up.

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I think she joked about "getting mad that he thinks she's mad" and such, but not for that particular episode (could be wrong).
Yeah, that comes later - when he tells her about the plan to pawn her off. After that she gets angry because he was being too protective of her.
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Old 2012-03-15, 09:57   Link #205
liars_paradox
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Originally Posted by kitsunisan View Post
From what I remember, Holo regarded that as an inconsequential thing. She was upset that Lawrence would think she was mad at him for "brushing against her hand".
I remember her saying she isn't afraid of Lawrence growing old, that she's dealt with death enough, she's "no stranger to death".
I think that you're right. It seems, at least from watching from the anime (I haven't read all of the books, or at least Volume 5 yet), that Holo's major problem with their relationship is that the novelty of it would eventually wear off.

Reading the words from volume 4, I do get the impression that Lawrence doesn't have a problem with the arguments that he has with Holo. That at least he dreads the idea that he would have to give that all up when he finally does reach Yoitsu.

On the anime, Holo complained that eventually their little arguments would become "chores". I think that she was worried that at some point that they would grow tired of each other. And, that was what she was fearing more than watching Lawrence growing old and dying on her.
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Old 2012-03-15, 10:44   Link #206
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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
As she put it, she's not afraid of his actual death (the event), but rather the whole tail-end of a relationship. So it stands to reason that she's afraid of growing reliant on him, which will only make her more lonely after he dies. The actual death isn't the issue, it's what comes after that.
No, I think that you're wrong. After reading your guys' posts, I decided to skip where I am in the books and find that point in volume 5 where Holo wants to break off the relationship.

On the anime she said something to the effect that she didn't want the novelty of their relationship to wear off. Their constant conflicts would go from being quaint to being "chores".

In the novel, Holo says, "And worst of all, as I enjoy it more and more, I'll begin to need more and more stimulation, and then what? You know, don't you, what lies at the top of those stairs?"

This doesn't have anything to do with dependence. She's not talking about needing him to live, but she's talking stimulation. Right now, their relationship is a lot of fun. But, eventually, that fun begins to wear off. The same things won't stimulate her as much any more, and at some point effect of their interactions will peak.

It's what comes after the peak that Holo fears more than Lawrence's death, or that she might feel more lonely after he dies. Relationships tend to work like this. Right now, Holo and Lawrence aren't bothered by their constant arguments or conflicts with each other. Lawrence isn't phased by the fact that Holo is a little short-tempered and kind of violent.

At this point in their relationship, these conflicts are cute. But, eventually, they won't be anymore. To Lawrence, Holo will probably start becoming more of a bitch to him (no pun intended). And, Holo will eventually get bored with the relationship.

So, it's the natural end of most relationships that Holo is really worried about happening to their relationship. It has nothing to do Holo's immortality.

The fact that Holo explains to Lawrence, "I'm not saying this because I don't want to watch you die. I've...already become used to that idea," is the author's way of affirming that this has nothing to do with Holo's immortality.

The author later goes on to say (in his own words), "Just like a human, she could only become accustomed to something, then tire of it, passing the dim night thinking, ah it was such fun at first. She could not stay happy forever" (Hasekura, 196).

I don't know why you guys keep missing it, when it's so clear. This isn't the first forum where someone also thought that Holo was afraid of Lawrence's growing old and dying on her. Her fears are a little bit more normal than that.

I think that the only way that her immortality comes in is that humans tend not to think about things like that. Eventually, the relationship isn't like it was when it first started, but people make relationships and continue with those relationships anyways.

Holo, being immortal, is full aware of that fact and doesn't want it to happen to her and Lawrence. She'd rather just end it at its peak rather than them growing tired of each other.


source:

Isuna, Hasekura. Spice & Wolf. 5. New York: Yen Press, 2011. 192, 195-196. Print.
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Old 2012-03-15, 16:37   Link #207
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This doesn't have anything to do with dependence.
I beg to differ. Just considering the face value of her words isn't enough. If it was just something so simple, she wouldn't need to contort things so much.. she knows he's selfless enough to let her go if she just asks. In fact he STILL almost lets her go.

But she's forcing the issue RIGHT NOW. She can't wait for a less risky or stupid time, she's desperate to cut off their relationship now. Why? Because there must be a point where she fears they won't be able to break it apart without that "bad" ending becoming inevitable.

That implies a growing dependence.. it implies that they won't be able to just walk away from each other. Even Lawrence is surprised that she's so "pessimistic".
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Old 2012-03-16, 09:14   Link #208
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I beg to differ. Just considering the face value of her words isn't enough. If it was just something so simple, she wouldn't need to contort things so much.. she knows he's selfless enough to let her go if she just asks. In fact he STILL almost lets her go.

But she's forcing the issue RIGHT NOW. She can't wait for a less risky or stupid time, she's desperate to cut off their relationship now. Why? Because there must be a point where she fears they won't be able to break it apart without that "bad" ending becoming inevitable.

That implies a growing dependence.. it implies that they won't be able to just walk away from each other. Even Lawrence is surprised that she's so "pessimistic".
No, she doesn't want to leave with a bad memory. Holo's reasoning is that it would be better for their relationship to end when it's best than when it's at it's worst.
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Old 2012-03-16, 14:18   Link #209
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No, she doesn't want to leave with a bad memory. Holo's reasoning is that it would be better for their relationship to end when it's best than when it's at it's worst.
My point is that she could leave him on a high note pretty easily. But she's trying to desperately force a happy ending, and in the process she's creating a bad memory (and knows it).

So if she's so worried about a bad memory, why go through the trouble of creating one anyway, unless she thinks there will be a worse one down the line? But what would that worse ending be?

If she's not afraid of seeing his death, then it's got to be something else. And all I can think of is that she doesn't want to grow so attached to him that it hurts her more than breaking up this way.

If it's not dependence, what else could it be? Not only that, but she clearly already thinks Lawrence is too dependent on her to just let her go. Otherwise she could just ask him to let her go, without all of this scheming.
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Old 2012-03-23, 09:52   Link #210
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Post In Hasekura's Words

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Originally Posted by BashZeStampeedo View Post
My point is that she could leave him on a high note pretty easily. But she's trying to desperately force a happy ending, and in the process she's creating a bad memory (and knows it).

So if she's so worried about a bad memory, why go through the trouble of creating one anyway, unless she thinks there will be a worse one down the line? But what would that worse ending be?

If she's not afraid of seeing his death, then it's got to be something else. And all I can think of is that she doesn't want to grow so attached to him that it hurts her more than breaking up this way.

If it's not dependence, what else could it be? Not only that, but she clearly already thinks Lawrence is too dependent on her to just let her go. Otherwise she could just ask him to let her go, without all of this scheming.
I think that you're assuming too much - you're putting thoughts into Holo's head that the book doesn't even imply.

Yes, Holo would be leaving Lawrence with a bad memory, but I didn't see anything in the author's writings which would indicate that Holo considered that. Just basing my interpretations solely on the author's words, I can gather that the only thing that Holo is concerned with is how the relationship will end before Lawrence dies.

And, I'm not sure in what way you think that Holo would depend on Lawrence. Holo is immortal and wouldn't need Lawrence to live, but if you're referring to some emotional need that Holo is depending on Lawrence for, then breaking off their relationship would only make things worse for her.

We know that Holo does suffer from loneliness anxiety, which is partly related to her immortal condition. But, being with someone that you grow tired of or no longer get along with might be better than being alone. If Holo was so concerned with feeling lonely then you would think that staying with Lawrence would help avoid that. Even if Holo grew tired of Lawrence, then at least she would have someone around her still.

Also, we also know that Holo would at least have a child with Lawrence if she stays with him for the rest of Lawrence's life, or at least until she has his child. So, it really doesn't seem that fear of being alone is what Holo is considering at this point.

But, going back to what I said earlier about the author's writings, Hasekura does explain to us exactly what Holo is thinking. He does tell us that Holo is concerned with the overall impression of the memory of Holo and Lawrence's time together. That's why she's trying to break the relationship off now, rather than later.

You're right about it leaving a bad memory, but the author didn't bother to bring that up. Without evidence this would only be conjecture, but I suppose that Holo's reasoning is that this one memory would not have quite as much of an impact as the rest of their relationship.

When Holo would look back on her days with Lawrence, she would think about how much she misses him - rather than be glad that she's rid of him. And, the same would be said for Lawrence. Lawrence would think about how much he misses her, but if they ended the relationship on bad terms then he would remember about how much of a bitch she was.

Last edited by liars_paradox; 2012-03-23 at 10:10. Reason: Additional Thoughts
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Old 2012-03-23, 12:11   Link #211
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I think that you're assuming too much - you're putting thoughts into Holo's head that the book doesn't even imply.
Yes, and I acknowledge that I'm speculating.. it's just for fun, since this doesn't make sense at face value, or even with over-analysis. Thanks for humoring me, by the way.

I did mean emotional dependence, not survival. Neither of them needs the other to survive. They just happened to be lonely and compatible.. then grew emotionally dependent on each other to some extent. And the more emotionally dependent one grows on someone else, the harder it can be for them to "let go" and move on, even if they're surrounded by friends and family.

My supposition was that Holo wants to remember him not as someone she "lost", but someone she had a lot of fun with. I might be entirely wrong, but it doesn't add up that she's just afraid of a bad breakup memory - she's had so much fun with him that it would have to be something exceptionally painful to taint the whole thing. Especially since a break up is inevitable, and she's even willing to make it a bad breakup.

But I'm willing to guess that she just got caught up in an irrational fear and didn't realize how silly she was acting. And also that I'm reading too far into it
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Old 2012-03-24, 20:53   Link #212
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To throw a totally different angle into the mix here (again only based on the books up to Vol. 5), I think we should consider the secondary motivations Holo has for bringing the issue up in the way she did. Keep in mind that Holo is portrayed as always being many steps ahead of Lawrence, and whatever she does or says has meanings that we don't always see at first. Also, keep in mind that Holo is terribly prideful, and doesn't like to admit any feelings that make her seem weak or needy.

Holo and Lawrence's relationship had progressed as far as it could on a platonic level. They were basically at the "more than friends, but not quite lovers" stage. This issue of how their relationship was perceived was a central theme in Volume 4, and came home to roost in Volume 5. Holo already said that she had gotten used to the idea of being by Lawrence's side until death, but she knows full well that Lawrence isn't going to spend his entire life travelling the world -- his dream is to settle down and set-up shop in a town. What would it mean to stand by Lawrence's side until death in that context? Certainly not in the current "more than friends, not quite lovers" state. When she says that she's gotten used to the idea of being "by his side", she means as a companion in the truest sense -- as his lover. (This goes back to the "what are you to me?" from an earlier volume as well.) Remember, she thinks many steps ahead. But there is no way in hell that the prideful Holo is going to "confess" to Lawrence, and not just because of pride but because she's imposing on him in a hugely unbalanced way. Holo being willing to stay by Lawrence for his lifespan is one thing, but life to a human is fleeting in comparison (this was covered in the early volumes of the novel).

Forcing a decision point at this juncture is critical because they would certainly have drifted apart if Lawrence was unwilling to take things to the next level. The events in Volume 5 brought Lawrence right on the cusp of his dream of becoming a town merchant, and that necessarily forces his relationship with Holo to change. And even if it hadn't worked out (and it didn't), the day would come eventually. There are basically only two choices on the horizon: either they become lovers, or they part ways. Having looked ahead and seen that eventuality was what was frustrating to Holo, particularly because she always sees so many steps ahead (unlike Lawrence who is just living in the moment). Holo could not take the next move down the first path (Lawrence had to make the first move), but she could force Lawrence's hand by setting things down the second path. So, that's exactly what she did.

So all that to say, I think the main issue here isn't "what was Holo thinking?" or "what was Holo afraid of?" but actually "what was Holo trying to accomplish". As they said in Volume 1, the value of a lie isn't in the lie itself, but in the motivation behind it. While I don't think Holo was lying, I think the chain of events she was trying to force tells us more about her intentions than anything else. Keep in mind that, at the end of Volume 5, Lawrence -- life in shambles -- does return and confess. He chose Holo over his erstwhile dream. Now, the path ahead for the two of them is clear; they have both accepted the idea that they can stay together until Lawrence dies, even though they may well "fall out of love" with each other. Lawrence wants to put his all into this relationship so that he they can both smile at the end, and that's what Holo really needed him to tell her -- that she's an integral part of any future he can see. Love trumps the fear of farewell.
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Old 2012-03-24, 23:20   Link #213
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Good points.

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Lawrence had to make the first move
If the "move" you're talking about is being the first to confess his feelings, then yes, that much is certain. But otherwise, he had been making moves since volume 3. By volume 5 he was ready to jump her bones. She had to know how he felt, and that he was holding back because he needed her to make a move.

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Lawrence wants to put his all into this relationship so that he they can both smile at the end, and that's what Holo really needed him to tell her
Yeah, that might be the case. But it's a hard sell that she engineered this situation to get him to say that, if that's what you're saying? I will buy that she HOPED to hear it, but engineered the scenario because it had become unbearably bittersweet and she panicked. Or, perhaps, that she really wanted him say to choose her over his dream (maybe because she doesn't want him to settle down, as you mentioned).

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Love trumps the fear of farewell.
This might not be true for Holo, given that she thinks so far ahead, has possibly been there already, and seemed willing to sacrifice budding love before it had a chance to trump that fear. But who knows at this point.
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Old 2012-03-25, 00:46   Link #214
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Yeah, that might be the case. But it's a hard sell that she engineered this situation to get him to say that, if that's what you're saying? I will buy that she HOPED to hear it, but engineered the scenario because it had become unbearably bittersweet and she panicked.
I wouldn't necessarily say that she engineered the whole situation just to get him to say it (I think you could argue that she was also trying to give him a legitimate out, even though we know he wasn't going to take it), but she certainly created this situation to force the issue. Remaining on the relationship plateau was what was more unbearable, and less the fact that they would have to someday say farewell. Because after all, as far as saying goodbye is concerned, that isn't going to change with the latest developments anyway -- someday, they'll still have to say goodbye and there's still the likelihood that the passion may cool... but what's changed is that Lawrence showed himself ready to commit, as it were, and they're able to keep on moving forward even knowing that day will come later. (I guess they kicked the can further down the road, in a way, and that was the only way to do it. The status quo was no longer acceptable to Holo.)

As for Lawrence and his moves... he certainly showed his interest in no uncertain terms, no doubt, but I think she needed to help him think through the ramifications, which he may not have fully considered. She was bringing up issues because she needed him to think about it (since she already had). I guess it was because he kept sending clear signals but hadn't made his declaration that made things unbearable.

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This might not be true for Holo, given that she thinks so far ahead, has possibly been there already, and seemed willing to sacrifice budding love before it had a chance to trump that fear. But who knows at this point.
I think here too it's because it was something she couldn't ask for. If he wouldn't ask, she could only be frustrated. The inn, and the apparent fulfilment of his dream, gave her the perfect opportunity to make as clean a break as she figured was possible, since (at least in her mind) it would only get even messier if it was allowed to go on otherwise (i.e. he'd get the inn and have a place to come back to, and that would all just make things messier in terms of deciding what he wanted to do).

Perhaps I should have said that it was the mutual acceptance of the journey their relationship was going to take going forward that was more important than that eventual fear of farewell. At least it gave them reason to not want to say farewell yet.
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Old 2012-03-25, 11:53   Link #215
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Remaining on the relationship plateau was what was more unbearable
Yeah, perhaps that was her fear.. the scenario she engineered was just ridiculous enough to have that ring of desperation, so perhaps she had given up hope that he would make the first move before they parted ways. Which is pretty funny, because it practically ensured that if he DID end up making the move, he would still be divided about his dream of settling down in a shop. Ah, comedy.

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it was the mutual acceptance of the journey their relationship was going to take going forward that was more important than that eventual fear of farewell.
Yeah, but it's still a tough sell. She should have known just how far he was willing to go to be with her, so this still feels more likely that she wanted to keep him out of danger by terminating their relationship, or afraid of taking it to the next level. But it's quite possible, especially if she was subconsciously trying to see just how far he'd be willing to put up with her.
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Old 2012-04-08, 18:25   Link #216
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Just as a matter somewhat related to the recent discusion; I think it's possible age may not matter in the end.

I understand this is shipping for Lawrence and Holo, but here goes anyway;

Lawrence is a wolf; or at least, he is the decendant of wolves.

Why do I say this?

Because (in the novels at least,) he knew that Yoitsu had been destroyed.

How exactly is it that some nobody peddler would know about something that happened so long ago? Unless perhaps as a part of the oral tradition of those who ran away when the Moon-bear attacked, and he heard about it that way.

In episode two of season two, he asks a woman he says is his mother; “Mother, what ever happened to the village of Yoitsu?”

Forget how would a nobody merchant know about Yoitsu; how would a nobody kid know about Yoitsu, unless he had some connection to the people/wolves who had once lived there.

One last thing might be the color of Lawrence's hair. Decended from a gray-wolf perhaps?

Thin, I know, but outside the issues of relationship talked about above, just about the only way Lawrence and Holo will be able to stay together any real length of time is if he is a wolf.

(-)

By the way; this place pushing you out due to 'inactivity' is a serious HUH? Typing your message isn't activity?

Second time this happened to me, and I don't like or appriciate having to type my post again any more than I did the first time.

Last edited by Neko Arc Brunestud; 2012-04-08 at 18:26. Reason: typo's
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Old 2012-04-08, 19:47   Link #217
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I love the pairing as much as the next person (maybe more), but I must say that I most humbly disagree.

Since it did happen long ago, it may well have worked itself into the mythos of the day. Thus it could have been a tale at least known in part by a fair number of people... depending on the region.
Consider if you will any number of Greek, Norse, or other myths.

It may well have been something he had heard a part of and wanted to know more... or perchance it was his favorite story as a child.

As for the grey hair... well, some people just aren't lucky. I have a friend who has had a receding hair-line since 3rd grade.

Why couldn't they stay together for any appreciable amount of time. Wolves are serially monogamous, so Holo would likely only even begin to consider pursuing a new relationship after Lawrence died.

Sorry, I hope I didn't sink your battleship.
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Old 2012-04-08, 19:55   Link #218
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That isn't him asking his mother about Yoitsu. It looks like he was spending the night at a resting place for travelers. The mother was telling her son stories, and he was sleeping next to them (notice the bed with the jacket on top of it next to them, and the cut to Lawrence in bed right after that) and overheard them. This occurs some time before he meets Holo, and so that is how he knows about it.
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Old 2012-04-08, 20:04   Link #219
Rajura
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Originally Posted by jte742 View Post
That isn't him asking his mother about Yoitsu. It looks like he was spending the night at a resting place for travelers. The mother was telling her son stories, and he was sleeping next to them (notice the bed with the jacket on top of it next to them, and the cut to Lawrence in bed right after that) and overheard them. This occurs some time before he meets Holo, and so that is how he knows about it.
D'oh! I never noticed the jacket... I'll have to go back and check that out.
Well, I screwed that up.
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Old 2012-04-09, 16:03   Link #220
Neko Arc Brunestud
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Rajura, I don't think you shot me down, but it sure seems like jte742 did...

Spoiler for Spoilers from the lite novels.:

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