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Old 2012-04-11, 14:17   Link #28401
GreyZone
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It doesn't make sense that everything we see is part of what's "released" in Prime, unless you can answer following problems:

  1. Why would the message bottles be signed with "Ushiromya Maria", although the narrator is Battler?
  2. Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that?
  3. Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?


Regarding Battler's narrative: Imagine it wasn't there...
The people would not introduce themselves and we would need an omniscient narrator to introduce them all, but since the story is from Battler's perspective (which is already strange because: see No. 1), it's only natural that he also introduces his relatives.
The "Benson Murder Case" from S.S. Van Dine does exactly the same... but it contains no other "Meta Scenes". And besides I think 99% of all other stories with first-person narrators do the same.

But the whole thing with the "Meta" is something that is very... exclusive and atypical for stories in general. I doubt that many stories with a similar narration style exist as (in) Umineko.
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Old 2012-04-11, 14:31   Link #28402
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The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.
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Old 2012-04-11, 15:33   Link #28403
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Another reason for which it's unlikely that meta narrative could exist in the original test as well as the fantasy scenes is that, if that were to be the case, it would be hard to believe in the messages in the bottles as possible truths of what had happened.
They had been discharged because Eva was still alive (in the messages she was supposed to die in the first twilight) and because the messages presented different versions of how things went... but nobody bothered to mention they contained goat headed guys chasing Rosa and that this would clearly imply whoever wrote them (and they know it was someone older than Maria) was either under drugs orplateally lying... and the same goes for Beato challenging Battler to a mystery game...
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Old 2012-04-11, 16:11   Link #28404
UsagiTenpura
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Well I'm assuming they are because of what I said:
The information about the forgeries existing at all came from Hachijou and Ange's convo in arc 6, and in it they made references to the very meta and also tea party from arc 5.

Beside we know so nothing about the real "prime" reality of that world that I don't see how anyone can be certain of pretty much anything concerning it - and thus the arguments used to consider that it would make sense or not to have x or y information included or removed in the in-game universe's narrative.

For all we know the "forgeries" concept only exists on the meta-level. You can't really seperate arc 3-4-5-6 being considered forgeries with the meta-layer of existence and knowledge anyway.
For arc 1-2 it's a bit different. We don't even have anything telling us that the messages found have anything to do with arc 1-2 within arc 4's future, which is very questionable as being actually "real" to begin with.

There's also like, I really can't think of what arc 5 and especially arc 6 would be without meta. Or even without like Beatrice learning about herself by reading previous stories. For the matter what's the point of having a name like "Dawn of the Golden witch" if you remove the meta? What about, also, the like "Jessica/George/Kanon/Shannon/Beato/Battler fantasy/meta hybrid thing"? Do we have to also remove that?

So it's really a matter of that - the arcs as we know would be incomplete and broken if you remove the meta. At best I guess you could say that what is contained in the meta-narrative was originally part of the actual story (but not in meta-narrative form).

At least to me it's obvious that the "themes" of a given episode couldn't be covered properly by removing the meta. It's not an additional part of the story, it's a basic part of it. Then meta-Ange, Will and even chick Beatrice were given access to the arcs in the same form we got them.

So I think in all honesty the only thing one could say is that "Ange and the other characters seen in that arc 4 future didn't have access to arc 1-2 in the same shape we got them". I can accept that, but I don't see in what it relates to a prime reality of Umineko.

As for the whole reader technique argument, you don't need to even have author theory for that to apply. I don't see how it supports or denies anything. It only basically means that a certain Knox is broken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.
Well we know neither if they figured that out or not or if they are that stupid or not. I thought it was obvious that Ryuukishi was doing everything not to directly touch the topic (as in, having a character actually say it directly). The true writer's not going to make a bunch of morons spill out what he ensured no one would say directly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
  1. Why would the message bottles be signed with "Ushiromya Maria", although the narrator is Battler?
  2. Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that?
  3. Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?
1- There are various interpretations of it. My favorite one was what Chrono came up with, that this was Beatrice's way of telling us not to accept magic/fantasy. Maria, who did such a thing, couldn't figure it. I'm sure plenty of other ways to interpret this exists that doesn't lead to your specific conclusion.

For 2-3 you got me, I don't remember either information accurately (in fact I don't even know where to look for for 2... mind telling me?). Tho for 3 you have to answer then why did the same ANGE referred to the meta events that occurred within the tea party? Cause if you're right it means that "we" are the ones lacking information (and not the prime people).


Quote:
Regarding Battler's narrative: Imagine it wasn't there...
The people would not introduce themselves and we would need an omniscient narrator to introduce them all, but since the story is from Battler's perspective (which is already strange because: see No. 1), it's only natural that he also introduces his relatives.
The "Benson Murder Case" from S.S. Van Dine does exactly the same... but it contains no other "Meta Scenes". And besides I think 99% of all other stories with first-person narrators do the same.

But the whole thing with the "Meta" is something that is very... exclusive and atypical for stories in general. I doubt that many stories with a similar narration style exist as (in) Umineko.
What about imagining arcs 2+ without the meta-narratives. Makes about the same level of sense.

Granted, Umineko gave it a specific shape, but meta exists in nearly all stories.
When a minor character ends up becoming a major character due to fandom popularity, it's a meta interaction to the story. You can always guess at such a thing even if it's not part of a given narrative. Ryuukishi just wanted us to guess at that level and since we weren't able to he used meta-narrative in the most direct possible form in order to ensure that we got exactly that. Yes that's special, but so's fantasy scenes.
Don't think what I'm trying to say is working but I'll try it in another way : the only thing that changed after arc 1 is that meta stopped being subtile. However I'm fairly certain that the true meta we were always meant to figure out wasn't anything like the meta we saw - actually I think Ange's future, Hachijou's level and even Featherine's levels were created afterward simply to tell us not to stop at the "current top layer" and go find another one above it. That didn't seem to work, sadly. In my understanding arc 6 demonstrated that process.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-04-11 at 16:43.
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Old 2012-04-11, 16:40   Link #28405
GreyZone
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I think that Legend and Turn are, at least by 'gameboard-content', the message bottles. In EP5 "???" he directs at them and says something like:

"At the end of the first two games it was said, that they were found as message bottles later".

It woud look very strange if this was in the PRIME-forgery of 'End o.t.g.W.'
And it would just sound ridiculous that the stories in the message bottles included that "they were found".



EDIT: found it in the script

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP5 ???TP
`Also, at the end of the 1st game,`@` it was revealed that this tale was passed on to people in the future by that message bottle.`\

`......Someone had written about this crime...this tale.`@
OK, he doesn't say that "they were found", but still he says that these "afterwords" were part of the game, which did not look like that, at least for me. Without this part i would never have considered that Meta-Battler knew about this.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-04-11 at 17:17.
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Old 2012-04-11, 18:01   Link #28406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
1- There are various interpretations of it. My favorite one was what Chrono came up with, that this was Beatrice's way of telling us not to accept magic/fantasy. Maria, who did such a thing, couldn't figure it. I'm sure plenty of other ways to interpret this exists that doesn't lead to your specific conclusion.
Okay, i guess we have to take this into the "coexisting truths list", like with 'Ikuko's identity' matter


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
For 2-3 you got me, I don't remember either information accurately (in fact I don't even know where to look for for 2... mind telling me?).
I am not sure anymore, but i think it was either EP3 ???TP, or the beginning of EP4. I even saw screenshots of that part not too long ago in this thread.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Tho for 3 you have to answer then why did the same ANGE referred to the meta events that occurred within the tea party? Cause if you're right it means that "we" are the ones lacking information (and not the prime people).
well... i am not sure anymore what your point was. I thought that the theory you and RandomAvatarFan want to establish is: "Everything we see is in the forgeries", in which case "we = Prime readers", or are you exclusively talking about the Meta parts?


EDIT: whoops, sorry for double post.
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Old 2012-04-11, 20:37   Link #28407
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And it would just sound ridiculous that the stories in the message bottles included that "they were found".
It does seem a bit ridiculous. You find a message bottle and inside it tells a story which ends with "the story being found in a message bottle." It reminds me of a poem by Jack Prelutzky. (This is actually not the way the poem was written, but rather the entire poem was wrapped up into a circle, so once you got to the end of the paragraph, you started back at the beginning)

Some sort of Escher art.

You see, watch the way Meta and Reality/Prime and Fantasy twists and collapses upon itself in EP6 with Ange and Featherine/Hachijou. These are meta characters within their forgery, reading that they are reading a forgery.

Quote:
RandomAvatarFan want to establish is: "Everything we see is in the forgeries", in which case "we = Prime readers", or are you exclusively talking about the Meta parts?
I was going for the "everything is forgeries." (I really have no answer for EP7 and EP8) Ange's future, meta-narration, is all there in the forgeries. Every mention of the forgeries and bottles in game is a self reference. I do think there is a Prime, and I do think that Prime is hidden somewhere in the forgeries. I do think it is absolutely positively possible to reach the one answer. But I don't think the scenes that people think are Prime are Prime. I don't think any scene truly shows Prime the way it is. Even Ange's future is a catbox at the end of EP8. I believe in the Author Theory, and looking at how the Episodes were written, I think you can see "the forger" within the forgery. This in itself is above the MetaGame, not parallel.

Some characters talk about the forgeries, others don't, and the layers of meta as we see them don't really change. Renall brought up "how would Erika react" but the thing is, she's depicted to be "playing a game with BATTLER", not "reading a forgery" like Ange. Why would *every* character (even "Meta" characters) be aware of this? The Our Confessions shows Beatrice on the layer of the "main Meta" where her battle with Battler takes place. There's no reason for Beatrice to even mention writing, or planning out Battler's moves, because that's not the character speaking.


Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.
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Old 2012-04-11, 21:35   Link #28408
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
GreyZone brought up "how would Erika react"
I think you mistook me for someone else. I don't remember bringing that point up. If you mean something older, then please show me what you mean.


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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.
If we assume that there is no Meta in the forgieries at all, then this is no problem. It just "doesn't exist". The 1st Episode was still about the forgery itself, but for some reason with Battler as the narrator, although the message bottles are signed with "Ushiromiya Maria", which destroys any credibility, if what we saw and what really was in the message bottle was indentical. However EP5 strongly implied that the content is overall the same, possibly with some changes.

Every next Episode, there is less and less similarity, between what we see in the forgeries and what really are inside them.

OK, i make a CUT here and change the subject a bit, but we can of course continue the discussion about the Meta-scenes meaning.

---

If you clearly think about it, then doesn't it seem strange that escpacially EP1 is so complete "magicless"?
I throw in a new theory now:
"The real message bottles are plain fantasy stories." Seems strange and also unlikely, however the fact, that they are signed with Maria, who has a "magic" point of view, implies that both Legend and Turn only have the fantasy part in them. (Yes, even with Legend having fantasy scenes that we never got to see ourselves)

'What do you think everyone?'
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Old 2012-04-11, 23:27   Link #28409
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Why is the number of murdered people that ANGE states in EP6 higher, than the number of people that we really saw dying in EP5 (or at least 'appeared' to have died)?
She said seven right? Maria, Jessica, George, Rosa, Genji, Krauss, Hideyoshi. Seven.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Meta-Narrative can't exist in the Forgeries because none of the Witch Hunters could figure out Shkanon. C'mon, guys, they're not THAT stupid.
Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
The information about the forgeries existing at all came from Hachijou and Ange's convo in arc 6, and in it they made references to the very meta and also tea party from arc 5.
This is a good point, but didn't all the references to meta occur when the narrative was in Featherine mode, and all the references to non-meta when in "Hachijou Touya" mode? Doesn't that have some significance?
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Old 2012-04-12, 02:39   Link #28410
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My $0.02 on the matter is that I don't see any benifit to the Meta being IN the forgeries. It raises WAY more questions than it answers.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.
It's interesting! The way it seemed to be explained is that yes, as you say, a Logic Error shouldn't really be possible, i.e, if it was said in red, it has to be possible somehow. HOWEVER, the matter is whether or not the witch her/himself (i.e, the author) knows the solution to the riddle they presented. If they don't, their entire presentation becomes sorta illegitimate ... that's why a neutral third party (Lambda) had to be present to verify that the author wasn't just lying about having a possible answer, and Lambda has always been Beato's guardian, so ... yeah. On the real world level, it's a matter of having trust in the author, like Ryukishi says ... however, it would be naive to think that every author deserves to be trusted.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Every next Episode, there is less and less similarity, between what we see in the forgeries and what really are inside them.
Yeah that's something I think we tend to overlook. Regardless of what kind of perspective Legend and Turn were given in, Tohya's first forgery, Banquet, was accepted as "totally legit sounding" despite it being almost IMPOSSIBLE to follow to same format. Maria is offed pretty early, and Battler does almost nothing, yet the readership at large apparently still went "yeah ... sounds about right."

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.
Well, the goats were also calling Shannon an illusion, so who knows what they think is going on in certain bits of the story. Also, I'd say the Meta-Narrative DOES go a long way to paring you down to at least as far as I got, which was "sometimes Shannon, sometimes Kanon, huuuuge question mark". A notable part of this, IMO, is that Kanon only definitely becomes culpable when we get Lambda's red truths at the very end of Alliance, which otherwise left Legend a big ol' bag of old people simultaneously shooting each other in the face, because why not.
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Old 2012-04-12, 09:26   Link #28411
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Originally Posted by Ikuko View Post
Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
I found this interesting and I'm watching it with breaks in between, cause it's 9 frigging hours long.
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Old 2012-04-12, 10:16   Link #28412
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Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
WOW! A nine hour analysis? Someone doesn't have a life...
Well, I didn't watch the whole thing because I do, but his first argument about the number of people in red reffering to the number of bodies and personalities both disprove the Shkanon theory is ridiculous...

I mean, sure it seems like a mistake on the author's part but rather than simply explaining it as a stupid word-play (which Umineko is full of, by the way), no, it's more logical to suppose it's to deceive all the readers into a fake solution which will not be denied even after the story is over.

Generally, the guy is just assuming his ass off...
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Old 2012-04-12, 11:23   Link #28413
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Generally, the guy is just assuming his ass off...
I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.
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Old 2012-04-12, 11:38   Link #28414
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I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.
I've only watched his first 2 chapters and I completely agree with the captain. Just in the first few minutes the guy arbitrarily called the red text "the highest authority in Umineko".

----------------------------------------------------

Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.
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Old 2012-04-12, 13:20   Link #28415
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Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.
I'm inclined to belive the second one, since it it says something along the lines of ''Erika closed the door, pushing Hideoshi back inside.

She then waited for the sound of the lock on the inside.... and her smiling eyes opened wide''

If she closed the door, and Hideoshi was pushed inside (Non related, but you sure have to be really strong to push such a huge weight inside) by closing it, she must have been on the outside of the room.


It's not a bad theory, at all, but need to be analised and considered. Not all theories are flawless on every point and having new theories brought to the table is okay with me. I will still listen and watch this guy's theory even further.
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Old 2012-04-12, 13:41   Link #28416
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I guess everyone goes by what makes sense to them. Different things makes different sense to different people.

From my pov, when you write a story, any story, you are inclined to base it on your life to a certain level (even subconsciously).
So to me it makes more sense that the "board" level is a creation based on a "prime" reality and not a direct copy paste. That's where Mystery and Fantasy comes into play, as two stories weaved based on the same prime elements. There are differences between fantasy and mystery, but there is a lot more in similar. The two are genre of fictions and thus overall follows the rules of fictions, including that many a thing that sounds ridiculous in the real world can be accepted more easily in fiction, to begin with the serial murders of Rokkenjima and the mega-explosion, tens tons of gold, Kinzo's backstory, etc.
From the start Ryuukishi wanted us (in my understanding) to look beyond the fictions we were given and try to think of it from above. From subtile hints given in arc 1, it became gradually more and more obvious until arc 8, by constantly showing us above layers and bringing foward author theory.

Even the message bottles, I don't think they existed to make us think about anything beside that it was a story. If anything I can say this line of thinking is what led me to think that the culprit doesn't have a real gameboard motive. From a writer's pov, the culprit is more or less nothing but the weapon of the crime (oh how fitting with Shannon/Kanon/piece Beato and the furniture themes!).

It's especially interesting that from a writer's pov, the idea of crimes tend to preceed the backstory of the culprit that leads them to do it. That's why I wasn't either very surprised about about so many backstory information being pretty much impossible to figure out before chiru arcs.
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Old 2012-04-12, 13:46   Link #28417
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.
I remember Erika being discounted from everyone else at some point, because she wouldn't be able to use her seals on the doors if she wasn't. I don't recall where exactly in the text that is though.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:58   Link #28418
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I'd rather watch all of it before I draw the conclution. Just like all the other theories I've read, it's fun to read and listen to it while he points out several things that I missed somewhere down the novel road.
I agree, though that guy would make everyone's life much easier if he limited himself to saying the exact same thing one time insted of thirty! And I don't like how bossy he comes off (well, look who's talking ), but seriously, it's like he says: This is the truth, belive it, if you disagree, you're wrong.

And clearly, skimming through the second part of the video, his Rosa-George theory is utterly ridiculous!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.
I'd agree with Judoh on this one, it'd be kinda silly if she asked Battler to confirm her own location.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
It's especially interesting that from a writer's pov, the idea of crimes tend to preceed the backstory of the culprit that leads them to do it. That's why I wasn't either very surprised about about so many backstory information being pretty much impossible to figure out before chiru arcs.
It wasn't impossible, really. I mean, I had pretty much figured some of the things it showed us in EP7 -though I often told myself, come on, it's not that, it's toooo far-fetched-.
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Old 2012-04-12, 15:21   Link #28419
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And clearly, skimming through the second part of the video, his Rosa-George theory is utterly ridiculous!
2 words: Small bombs.

That made it through the cut, and if that did pass through as a valid thing, then anything can go through with no problem at all.

Remember, nobody brought up the first Twilight of the second game ever again after Episode 4, with the exception of Will ''EARTH TO EARTH, ILLUSIONS TO ILLUSIONS'' in episode 7, but I just pay half attention to it cause everyone would give the reason to an unknown guy in a blue raincoat wielding a massive black sword.
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Old 2012-04-12, 15:38   Link #28420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walterion View Post
2 words: Small bombs.

That made it through the cut, and if that did pass through as a valid thing, then anything can go through with no problem at all.

Remember, nobody brought up the first Twilight of the second game ever again after Episode 4, with the exception of Will ''EARTH TO EARTH, ILLUSIONS TO ILLUSIONS'' in episode 7, but I just pay half attention to it cause everyone would give the reason to an unknown guy in a blue raincoat wielding a massive black sword.
Except, the whole purpose of the scene with the small bombs was for Battler to 'solve' the game with ridiculous but passable theories which Beato didn't bother to counter because she wanted to throw the games away. And to be honest, I think neither Battler really believed that could be it anyway, he just said something that could pass so that he would be released.

Of course, when we're shoved a piece of crap right down our throats we're not going to swallow it, be it from Battler or just a random guy in YouTube.

P.S: Well, paying only half-attention to Willard's "solving", you miss some hints, some of which are total give-aways.
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