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Old 2012-04-12, 16:40   Link #28421
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Before EP 6, does the meta-narrative help us catch onto ShKanon? Kanon is dead wasn't a hint. It was a trick that only existed in meta and was meant to throw us off.

And by EP 8 the goats were denying Kanon's existence.
The goats have access to information we don't, so you have to consider the possibility that they couldn't find any records of Kanon or Shannon's existence as the people the stories portray them to be, and thus concluded (accurately, perhaps!) that they don't really exist.

That aside, it's possible to reach the idea of either of Kanon/Shannon not really existing through nothing more than the board narratives of ep1-4. Kanon not having a visible corpse would be a big reason, and that's something that will be noticed even if there's no meta-dialogue to call attention to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
Ever realize that the logic error in EP6 is a logic error in and of itself? In EP4 we know that if it cannot be true, it cannot be said in red. BATTLER made the game, making sure there were no logic errors. If his move could not be made, he would not have been able to make it to begin with. But Erika and Lambda decide he's in a logic error, that his move could not possibly be made. How could this happen? Everything, even the game with BATTLER and Erika are a part of the game on a higher plane, or even a forgery.
If a solution to a Logic Error exists, there was never a Logic Error in the first place. Battler entered the paradoxical world of a Logic Error state intentionally by refusing to divulge the solution. It's what he intended all along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Something interesting I just noticed- In EP6:

# [Request: 'The six first twilight victims are located at the places where they were discovered. Natsuhi is in her room, Eva is in the VIP room, Kyrie is in Krauss's study, Rosa and Maria are in the parlor, and you are in the guest room!'] I acknowledge it.
# [Request: 'Hideyoshi, George, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are in the next room over!'] Acknowledged.
# [It has already been shown that Kinzo no longer exists, so please remove him from the word 'everyone'.] I acknowledge that everyone else is in the cousins' room.

Erika herself was never mentioned. Wouldn't that mean that she, too, would technically be included in "everyone else"? Which would mean that either she's actually in the cousins' room at the time, or doesn't exist (at the time).

Or you could suppose that there's an implication that she's not part of "everyone else" because her location is obvious.
There is an implication that Erika is not including herself in the location check, but ultimately it doesn't matter because at the moment of the check Erika's present location is entirely theoretical since the game essentially collapses to a singularity. It's clear that she meant to exclude herself and Kinzo from "everyone else." Because Kinzo's exclusion is acknowledged, and because Kanon apparently doesn't count as "everyone else" if he's not presently existing at the time (which I think is a crock, but whatever), it's clear that Battler's "everyone else" is not referring to "everyone."

Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:57   Link #28422
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'd agree with Judoh on this one, it'd be kinda silly if she asked Battler to confirm her own location.
Sure, but on the other hand she was quite specific about similar things during the logic error battle with Beatrice, like "confirm that I am not the rescuer."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.
Haha! Indeed!
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:03   Link #28423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Indeed, I'm surprised no solution has ever been proposed for Dawn that takes Battler quite literally and solves the logic error through some incredible troll logic which posits that Erika cannot verify anything at all regarding the status of Battler's room because she is trapped in the next room over with every other being that exists anywhere in the universe, crammed into a space the size of a tiny bedroom and completely unable to move, see, or breathe.
I didn't quite manage to trap her in the cousins' room, but see the last several posts of the EP6 thread...

EDIT:
I wonder what the Schwarzchild radius of the cousins' room would be if all living things in existence were trapped inside it? Gravitational collapse would certainly account for Erika's blathering about stopped time.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2012-04-12 at 17:13.
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:20   Link #28424
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
EDIT:
I wonder what the Schwarzchild radius of the cousins' room would be if all living things in existence were trapped inside it? Gravitational collapse would certainly account for Erika's blathering about stopped time.
Is she the second comming of Dio Brando?
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:38   Link #28425
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Originally Posted by Ikuko View Post
Has anyone here watched this? What do you guys think?
I tried to but English isn't my first language and listening to such a long English conversation, while mentally translating it in my head just gives me a headache before I can start mulling in my head the theory discussed in it.

Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:45   Link #28426
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.
if you want, I can try making a transcript of it, but then you will have to pay me with painkillers or other pain supression meds, cause it's going to be quite a long transcript.
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:59   Link #28427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Also, on personal preference I don't really like when such long explanations are made through a video unless visual aid is fundamental.
It's much more comfortable to follow an explanation on paper, where I can skim back and forth.
You could ask KnownNoMore himself. He probably has more time on his hands than even those of us wasting our time on this forum do.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I didn't quite manage to trap her in the cousins' room, but see the last several posts of the EP6 thread...
You know, I did always find Erika's redundant stipulation that Kinzo shouldn't be included to be kind of... contrived.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-04-12 at 18:16.
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Old 2012-04-12, 19:09   Link #28428
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Originally Posted by Walterion View Post
if you want, I can try making a transcript of it, but then you will have to pay me with painkillers or other pain supression meds, cause it's going to be quite a long transcript.
Thanks but it'll be unfair to ask you to transcript all of it.
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Old 2012-04-12, 19:39   Link #28429
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Thanks but it'll be unfair to ask you to transcript all of it.
Unfair is the right word to trigger my motivation. I will see if I can start tomorrow with part 1 and keep going from there.
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Old 2012-04-12, 20:53   Link #28430
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I started watching it, and I'm not liking him... he sounds annoying. He lists "It is false that... It is false that... It is false that..." that feels like he's trying to recreate the Court of Illusions, but I'm already five minutes in, and he hasn't given his alternative theory either. You think the author is wrong, good for you. What do you propose instead?

Quote:
It is my position that the author, Ryukishi, is purposely deceiving the readers.
I honestly don't think that's quite it. Chiru wasn't really meant to give the one truth that we've argued about too, but it was meant to point us in the right direction, by saying "Why don't you look over here?" and then give some sort of closure for Ange. I really doubt Ryukishi would be deceiving us as greatly as this guy claims, because of his constant rants within the story and interviews saying "Trust the author." Senza amore...

I'll keep skim through it the best I can. Nine hours is a long time for a video game analysis.
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Old 2012-04-13, 02:42   Link #28431
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Even the message bottles, I don't think they existed to make us think about anything beside that it was a story. If anything I can say this line of thinking is what led me to think that the culprit doesn't have a real gameboard motive. From a writer's pov, the culprit is more or less nothing but the weapon of the crime (oh how fitting with Shannon/Kanon/piece Beato and the furniture themes!).
But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I remember Erika being discounted from everyone else at some point, because she wouldn't be able to use her seals on the doors if she wasn't. I don't recall where exactly in the text that is though.
I think I found it ... it's right after she leaves the room Hideyoshi is in ... she breaks into Meta to immediately confirm locations, and to put it all together, she says "Excluding Kinzo and myself, there are 17 humans, whose locations are as such." Agreeing that her location was just, y'know, obvious. And she has to exist in some way, or we can't have all her shenanigans in the Guest Room later which are confirmed in red. The real snake has always been that other small bit, "If Battler had been told to repeat that Krauss, Rudolf, Kanon, Genji, Godha and Jessica were in the cousin room, he would've done so", 'cause we all know damn well he would NOT have done so.

Also, I remember seeing that vid awhile ago ... I remember thinking he made alot of faulty assumptions ("Rosa kinda sorta LOOKS like Beatrice, right?"), but at least it was sort of interesting at least in it's thoroughness. Also, some time ago, when I thought about who I would most easily ACCEPT as the culprit, it WAS Rosa, so ... hey.
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Old 2012-04-13, 06:09   Link #28432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
[*]Why does the narration in the future say something about " 'Banquet of the golden Witch' contained Eva's escape to Kuwadorian", although we never got to see that
Well I got that answer at least.
Indeed we haven't seen it but it's information that we had access to within arc 3. Arc 3's tea party is set in the future (or was it the ura?) and tells us that much. So that actually suggest that arc 3 forgery includes the TP/Ura.


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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...
Indeed, that's also why I ended up thinking that.
What gameboard motive can be satisfying without any meta? And not be heartless.
There's quite a limited number of motives in the end that leads one to mass murder and they are all things we have all already seen a thousand times. (in fact I personally think as it currently stands Natsuhi culprit as presented in arc 5 is a lot less heartless then Yasu emo mass murdering everyone out of love while she's the one messing up George and Jessica's feelings - and what about the Kyrie culprit from ura arc 7? Lolgold is a joke for a reason).
Drama overload or selfishness overload leading to tragedy. Amazingly unsatisfying.
But through meta you can have an actually satisfying heart, a satisfying motive.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-04-13 at 06:25.
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Old 2012-04-13, 06:23   Link #28433
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well I got that answer at least.
Indeed we haven't seen it but it's information that we had access to within arc 3. Arc 3's tea party is set in the future (or was it the ura?) and tells us that much. So that actually suggest that arc 3 forgery includes the TP/Ura.
How can a forgery include itself in the story AND include that it becomes popular? Doesn't make sense... and then WHY does it say about itself that it includes something that it does NOT? (Eva's escape to Kuwadorian)



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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
But, but ... all that stuff about not frgetting the heart, and both Yasu and Battler disliking heartless tales where the motive isn't very satisfying...
The "real heart" was something that was directed only toward Battler, something that only he and the one who created it can understand.
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Old 2012-04-13, 06:30   Link #28434
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
How can a forgery include itself in the story AND include that it becomes popular? Doesn't make sense...
What are you talking about? It makes sense to us, why shouldn't it make sense to them?
Also, this wouldn't be the first story that does something like that. In fact even Higurashi did something like that...

If you claim it doesn't make sense, you do so based on assumptions you have out of Rokkenjima Prime's reality, which isn't based on anything.
The reasons why it wouldn't make sense are thus assumptions you chose and not actual reasons that it doesn't make sense.
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Old 2012-04-13, 06:40   Link #28435
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OK, I'll give you that, but you still didn't explain why it says about itself something that is just not true. (Eva's escape to Kuwadorian)
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Old 2012-04-13, 14:12   Link #28436
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I must not have read EP4 carefully... I thought it was something that people would have known from Eva, not something they read from the forgeries.
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Old 2012-04-13, 14:22   Link #28437
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In this very thread i saw a screenshoot confirming my argument...i will look for it later, maybe...
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Old 2012-04-13, 20:23   Link #28438
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Originally Posted by Walterion View Post
Unfair is the right word to trigger my motivation. I will see if I can start tomorrow with part 1 and keep going from there.
In this case thank you so much!
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Old 2012-04-14, 02:27   Link #28439
Kealym
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Indeed, that's also why I ended up thinking that.
What gameboard motive can be satisfying without any meta? And not be heartless.
There's quite a limited number of motives in the end that leads one to mass murder and they are all things we have all already seen a thousand times. (in fact I personally think as it currently stands Natsuhi culprit as presented in arc 5 is a lot less heartless then Yasu emo mass murdering everyone out of love while she's the one messing up George and Jessica's feelings - and what about the Kyrie culprit from ura arc 7? Lolgold is a joke for a reason).
Drama overload or selfishness overload leading to tragedy. Amazingly unsatisfying.
But through meta you can have an actually satisfying heart, a satisfying motive.
Well, I won't go too far out of my way to argue against the interpretation that satisfies you, but I find the idea that the motive was purely Meta as ALSO pretty shoddy, morally speaking. Also, knee-jerk response that neither greed or revenge are inherently unsatisfying motives. Though the only thing EP7 Kyrie needed to complete the trope list was a curly mustache to tweedle and one of the girls tied to some darn train tracks.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
The "real heart" was something that was directed only toward Battler, something that only he and the one who created it can understand.
I dunno - Will came pretty much outta nowhere and seemed to pick up on everything despite not caring about it all that much. He just wasn't a jackass about it, like all the anon Goats.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
What are you talking about? It makes sense to us, why shouldn't it make sense to them?
Well, it's like ... for us, the ENTIRETY of Umineko is fictional. In whatever Prime is, Eva is a REAL person refusing to comment on a REAL explosion that may or may not kill some people.

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
I must not have read EP4 carefully... I thought it was something that people would have known from Eva, not something they read from the forgeries.
It may be common knowledge that Eva was found at the Kuwadorian (she sure as heck wasn't found at Guest House), but Tohya's Banquet is stated to be the first notable forgery that includes her escape to it in it's narrative, IIRC. What really kinda confuses me is that in her absolute refusal to say ANYTHING, Eva also refused to call out the first two stories as the silly, silly lies they were?

"How could that EVEN make sense? I'm alive right here, and there's not so much as a scratch on my forehead or stomach. Idiot."
"But maybe you're ... a BODY DOUBLE EVA WITH PLASTIC SURGERY?!"
"... get the hell out of my office."
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Old 2012-04-14, 21:26   Link #28440
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"How could that EVEN make sense? I'm alive right here, and there's not so much as a scratch on my forehead or stomach. Idiot."
Well if EP1 was Eva playing a murder game...

I still don't know if it answers the "paradox" in EP2. I'm still absolutely disgusted by EP2's first twilight, and no matter how "satisfying" the motive, I still think it's horrible that someone may have actually done that to them...
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