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Old 2012-04-09, 12:50   Link #101
Flying Dagger
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SSD prices have certainly been dropping. It is not uncommon to find some decent 128gb @~$1/GB on newegg from time to time. Friend got a kingston hyperX 128GB for ~$140 which is not too bad given the quality.

SSD is def the biggest improvement per cost for most machines.

However not every single computer has a SSD: I played around Win8 on a 2 year old laptop and it did yield some improvements.

I am not a big fan of metro apps.

At the end of the day: I do not think I am going to get Win8 if it interferes with how I have used my windows based PC for the past many years (and I began around the 3.1 era). I am the type who have trouble finding things in the control penal if it is not in classic view, and I cannot live without my messy desktop packed with shortcuts and various icons.
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Old 2012-04-09, 13:23   Link #102
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
and I cannot live without my messy desktop packed with shortcuts and various icons.
I actually killed all that with Win7, all my essential apps (essential as in on a normal day they're gonna run) were on the superbar, desktop apps hidden and anything more remote was in the StartMenu. I just wanted to be able to enjoy the wallpaper view instead of seeing ugly things cluttering my space.

With Win8... Well, the Metro Start really need many more options for customization, and if they're trying to push it for the main UI (which will probably fail for the next 5-10 years given how people perceived even Vista's rather mild changes), the Start screen needs as much appearance customization as the desktop currently has.

I agree on the metro apps, I keep trying to use them and send feedback in hopes that they get actually usable and nice, but either they fix that forced fullscreen thing or they find a way to restore multitasking functionality to normal Windows level (maybe a metro taskbar or something) otherwise it's gonna sale even less than Vista.
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Old 2012-04-10, 03:21   Link #103
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
I agree on the metro apps, I keep trying to use them and send feedback in hopes that they get actually usable and nice, but either they fix that forced fullscreen thing or they find a way to restore multitasking functionality to normal Windows level (maybe a metro taskbar or something) otherwise it's gonna sale even less than Vista.
Windows 8 still contains the familiar desktop, with all of its "normal" Windows level of multitasking functionality. The new class of metro-style apps is just an addition to that.
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Old 2012-04-10, 04:02   Link #104
npal
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
Windows 8 still contains the familiar desktop, with all of its "normal" Windows level of multitasking functionality. The new class of metro-style apps is just an addition to that.
YOU DON'T SAY.

The problem is that Metro is now the new OS so Microsoft's goal is to move all the apps to Metro, they're already referring to the desktop apps as "legacy". Now IF Microsoft actually success, which I find incredibly hard, eventually you'll have mostly Metro apps on your PC. Well, those don't work that nice as Metro is now.
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Old 2012-04-10, 09:33   Link #105
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
YOU DON'T SAY.
I do, since people seem to forget that, or act as if they don't know about it.
Quote:
The problem is that Metro is now the new OS
It's not. Windows 8 is the new OS.
Quote:
so Microsoft's goal is to move all the apps to Metro
Microsoft's goal is to move all apps to the latest version of Windows they release, as it always has been. They're just emphasizing metro-style apps for Windows 8 because it's a huge part of their effort in the tablet space. They don't want a lack of popular apps to be the cause of consumers choosing other tablet OS over their own.
Quote:
they're already referring to the desktop apps as "legacy".
In case you didn't know, Microsoft is better than the competition at supporting legacy features and apps with their latest OS version. So it doesn't matter what they call desktop apps as long as they work reasonably well in Windows 8.
Quote:
Now IF Microsoft actually success, which I find incredibly hard, eventually you'll have mostly Metro apps on your PC. Well, those don't work that nice as Metro is now.
You're the one who choose what apps you have on your PC. If you want to use mostly desktop apps, then feel free to do so.
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Old 2012-04-10, 11:29   Link #106
Flying Dagger
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The desktop is there, but the major focus which microsoft is trying to push is Metro (and various metro related elements).

Here is a thought:
Given Windows 8, will touchscreens become more popular? Will software developers design things that are more "touch friendly"?

Secondly, will businesses openly embrace Windows 8 on their work station in time?

Maybe it is the interface change that I am not getting used to. I do not really like those "big buttons" meant for fingers and not mouse pointers.
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Old 2012-04-10, 15:35   Link #107
Random32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
Here is a thought:
Given Windows 8, will touchscreens become more popular? Will software developers design things that are more "touch friendly"?
Highly doubtful. Touch just isn't a good way to interact with a computer for most tasks. Windows Tablets have been around forever and are used in environments where they make sense. The iPad is practically the only tablet seeing mainstream success, and that is not because it does touch right, it is because its endorsed by the Church of Steve Jobs.

Quote:
Secondly, will businesses openly embrace Windows 8 on their work station in time?
I don't think MS wants Win7 to become WinXP all over again. They'll do their best to force 8 on businesses so they don't have to keep supporting 7 well into the 2020's.
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Old 2012-04-10, 20:56   Link #108
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Outside of kiosks and for 'tablet' business apps (like warehouse special apps).... eh not so much. Which is a problem since most of Microsoft's business is -> business customers.

I guess this would make more sense to me and my MS Partner buddies if Metro were a "desktop" module that was parallel (somewhat like Gnome vs et al in the *nix world) and could be selected or de-selected.
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Old 2012-04-10, 23:27   Link #109
synaesthetic
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The problem is touchscreens are not ergonomic or even comfortable on a desktop. Is it comfortable (or convenient) to stick your arm out and push on a vertically-aligned screen? Is it comfortable to hunch over an iPad flat on a table?

This whole thing is beyond stupid. Touchscreens have a purpose--to increase the input capability on very small devices, such as smartphones. Touchscreens are bloody brilliant for phones, MIDs and PDAs.

I don't give a holy hell what anyone else says, tactile feedback matters. If you don't think so, do a little experiment. Type a five-page essay on an iPad's soft keyboard. If you don't want to destroy the damn thing halfway through out of frustration, you've got problems.

I don't care how Microsoft pushes Windows 8, they aren't going to make the touchscreen popular on the desktop platform and they're damn sure not going to usher out the mouse and keyboard.
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Old 2012-04-11, 00:07   Link #110
npal
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

I don't care how Microsoft pushes Windows 8, they aren't going to make the touchscreen popular on the desktop platform and they're damn sure not going to usher out the mouse and keyboard.
Microsoft was going downhill ever since Bill left and Balmer took over. The whole Windows 8 endeavor could be the deal-breaker for MS. Judging by how people perceived some of Vista's actually NEEDED features, people are gonna be rioting when Windows 8 comes out. But then, Windows 8 is rather fast and there are indeed improvements under the hood, the Start Screen CAN actually be more efficient if set up right, but the whole touch oriented thing isn't going to get much love from people who need to work on the desktop and rightly so at this point. Fact is Windows 8 reception is VASTLY different from the Windows 7 wow reception, so yeah, I'm pretty confident that, no matter the improvements, it'll be Vista all over again in sales.
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Old 2012-04-11, 00:30   Link #111
synaesthetic
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Really. Tactile feedback matters so much that I spent $100 on a mechanical switch keyboard and it was absolutely worth it.
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Old 2012-04-11, 00:38   Link #112
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
The desktop is there, but the major focus which microsoft is trying to push is Metro (and various metro related elements).
That's because it's new in Windows 8. The desktop should be mostly familiar for people who have seen and/or used Windows 7
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
The iPad is practically the only tablet seeing mainstream success, and that is not because it does touch right, it is because its endorsed by the Church of Steve Jobs.
I'm sure every Apple product that was released under Steve Job's watch is endorsed by him. (I don't know about this "church" you mentioned.) That in itself, however, doesn't really say anything about the potential success of a non-Apple product.
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
they're damn sure not going to usher out the mouse and keyboard.
I don't think Microsoft is trying to do that.
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Old 2012-04-11, 07:37   Link #113
Random32
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I meant that the iPad is an Apple product and they can sell anything provided its not really really shitty.

Every other tablet so far has failed to see mainstream success. Traditional Windows tablets are very successful in the niches where touch makes sense, but pretty much a failure everywhere else. Android has failed to take off as a tablet OS. Touch is not an efficient or ergonomic way to interact with a computer the vast majority of the time.
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Old 2012-04-11, 18:57   Link #114
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Touch is not an efficient or ergonomic way to interact with a computer the vast majority of the time.
Like I said, touchscreens are wonderful for tiny devices without any space to put actual tactile keys. When the objects start getting larger to the point that they're more "transportable" than portable (think laptops here), then a touchscreen's advantages disappear.

The main reason the iPad is successful is because it's an Apple product, not because touchscreen tablets have a place in mainstream computing. People like them because they're trendy, not because they're functional.

Want proof? Android tablets have much more functionality than the iPad (which is still just a gigantic iPhone with no phone), and yet they don't sell well at all. The HP Touchpad was a gigantic flop to the point where HP actually abandoned webOS and everything else they got when they bought Palm.

I've used the so-called "all in one" touchscreen desktops (like HP, Sony, etc). They'd be very useful in certain niches--public kiosks and information booths, quick-print stations or quick-internet access stations. They're not useful or comfortable when sitting at a desk.

It's not going to get better when WOA comes out, because the layperson will not know the differences between architectures. They'll know that the x86 tablets have considerably worse battery life than the ARM ones, and they'll be heavier and hotter. So people will want the ARM tablets with Windows. They'll expect them to run Windows desktop applications--which they won't do.

This is a fad and I don't see it lasting forever. I honestly think the other route--huge smartphones--makes more sense than tablets. The screen on my Nexus is 4.65" and I am much more productive on it than I was on my previous Nexus S with its 4", lower-resolution screen. The Galaxy Note is a throwback to the PDAs of yore--it even has a stylus--and can serve many of the same functions as an oldschool Palm Pilot, only bigger and better.

The difference here is you can hold them comfortably in one hand, operate them with one hand (or with the stylus like a notepad in the Note's case), and they fit into a jacket pocket or small handbag without too much trouble. Trying to use large tablets is not especially comfortable. The most comfortable setup I've found with the iPad is a case with a built-in Bluetooth keyboard--yeah, basically turning the damn thing into a laptop.

The manufacturers want to push tablets and tablet-like devices running cheap ARM CPUs because it's a strike against general-purpose computing. The difference between an iPad with a keyboard case and my ultraportable laptop is openness and general-purpose use. I can put Windows, Linux, Solaris, whatever OS I want on my laptop. It's completely open. I don't need to hack anything to gain root access. You can't do that on an iPad, WOA tablet or Android tablet.

The big companies like the model of a computer as an appliance, to lock down its flexibility and utility and then sell you the keys to those locks separately. It's about control--specifically about taking control away from the consumer. Apple's famous "walled garden" is proof that they absolutely want to maintain control for themselves so they can monetize usage cases.
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Old 2012-04-13, 17:24   Link #115
Random32
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Lightbulb

I don't think any of you are interested in developing Metro apps, but Splashtop has a program for Windows 8 on iPad it seems with gesture support an everything (actually, I think gestures is all it adds over their normal remote desktop for iOS apps).

I don't have a tablet and I think the app is a ripoff compared to their normal remote desktop app even at 50% discount. It seems like they really are targeting exclusively developers interested in developing for Windows tablets, have an iPad, and lack an x86 tablet to run preview on. Bit niche imho.

It would be interesting to hear how Win8 feels on the closest thing we have to a WoA tablet. Not worth my $25 though, don't have an iPad anyways.
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Old 2012-04-15, 13:32   Link #116
felix
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+1 for tactile feedback (and stupid simple controls in general)

Unless there's some really great excuse for having things touch don't mess with things that work. Touch is like kinect and the wii, 90% hype, 10% use.
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Old 2012-04-15, 15:06   Link #117
monster
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Originally Posted by felix View Post
Touch is like kinect and the wii, 90% hype, 10% use.
And if it sells just as much, companies will want to push the heck out of it.
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Old 2012-04-15, 17:26   Link #118
synaesthetic
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Kinect is amazing though, but for everything it wasn't originally designed for. All the crazy non-gaming uses for Kinect are awesome.
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Old 2012-04-16, 23:55   Link #119
monster
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It's official: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/b...-editions.aspx

- Name: Windows 8 on x86/64, Windows RT on ARM

- x86/64 Editions: Windows 8, Windows 8 Pro, Windows 8 Enterprise

- Windows 8: There will be a local language-only edition for China and a small set of select emerging markets.

- Windows 8 Pro: Windows Media Center will be available as an economical “media pack” add-on.

- Windows RT: Touch-optimized desktop versions of the new Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote will be included.
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Old 2012-04-17, 00:13   Link #120
Vexx
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What does the "RT" stand for? As an engineer and software developer.... "RT" has a rather specific meaning. Blundering around the blogs/news wasn't enlightening, more like apparently a lot of devs have the same question.

The business network questions around AD and networking for the ARM devices are quite worrisome (unless they plan on a purely consumer market for ARM devices o.O).

Otherwise, I certainly applaud the SKU reduction... sadly whether I like it or not, I'll probably have to at least understand whats going on under the hood to help clients with it.
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