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Old 2012-04-16, 14:56   Link #41
Sides
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Actually region restriction has become a bigger issue this generation, or let say with DD. Currently DD services are divided into regions with different pricing, say if you live in the UK you tend to pay more than if you live in spain, for no real reason. We are talking about goods that are, probably, stored on the same servers worldwide, has, most-likely, the same publisher in all regions, and it is the same product. So why is it ok to charge people from different regions differently? Physical good are different you have to ship them over air, water and land and then store it in warehouses, so I do think that is justifiable, but this new kind of region restriction is pants, and unless you have access to a vpn connection you won't be able to bypass most of them.
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Old 2012-04-16, 15:29   Link #42
Flying Dagger
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Legal issues and advertisement costs (as well as taxes) may vary from country to country. Local economy may factor into pricing as well.

A game that sells for $60 USD in NA may not work in China where people have less purchasing power.
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Old 2012-04-16, 16:25   Link #43
Keroko
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What legal issues would prevent a company from making a game region free? PC games aren't bothered by it, why consoles? Even economy becomes a weak argument when faced with todays global market. China might have less spending power, but why prevent those who are able to buy it from importing it?

Really, region restrictions are a relic from the old days where the difference between NTSC and PAL actually mattered to the point where games could have problems functioning. This is no longer the case, yet region locks still exist.
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Old 2012-04-16, 17:35   Link #44
Flying Dagger
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
What legal issues would prevent a company from making a game region free? PC games aren't bothered by it, why consoles? Even economy becomes a weak argument when faced with todays global market. China might have less spending power, but why prevent those who are able to buy it from importing it?

Really, region restrictions are a relic from the old days where the difference between NTSC and PAL actually mattered to the point where games could have problems functioning. This is no longer the case, yet region locks still exist.
Getting a game approved and rated in every country, afterwards having it go through customs and a ton of various obstacles.

Ie: you get your game rated by ESRB as Teen, but the customs/other departments may not approve of it because the game is about brainwashing and killing people in your country and promotes politics which your country may not support. An extreme case might be, lets say, a typing game intended for kids and teenagers, but the stuff you type out deal with communism and American invasion of foreign countries - do you think the US government would let such a game be published on American soil? The company might just region lock the game to Asia so their North American branch does not get sued when kids in America gets their hands onto the game and their parents become enraged.

Lets say your game is ready to ship in North America but the Asian countries such as Japan and Korea are taking their sweet time going through even single piece of dialog with a handheld dictionary. A company can just region lock the game and release the NA version ahead of time in North America.
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Old 2012-04-16, 17:49   Link #45
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I guess this thing explains how I feel about DLC :

http://consumerist.com/2012/04/congr...-for-2012.html

I only take DLC that are free, the ones for Agarest (free dungeons and items) are a good example, I don't mind paying DLC that gives "option" such as skins, but I hate those news DLC that brings you contents and are extensive as hell.

Seriously, I don't understand this, are we some cows or sheeps to get eaten like this?
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:05   Link #46
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We know the legal implications of this are fairly minor, as there are as many region-free games out there as there are region-locked. Not to mention the PC platform, which does not even have this limitation on games to begin with (unless it's Nexon). So yeah, I'm having trouble believing the potential lawsuits or banning of games is the reason for region locks still existing.

Particularly that last example you mentioned is a personal pet-peeve of mine. A surprising number of the Tales games have been released in NA have either very late or even never been released in Europe, despite many players being very willing to buy them. The game is already English, so translation is not an issue. What is the issue though? The region lock.

The only way for us to play the game? Either modify our consoles to play games of all regions (illegal) or pirate the game itself (also illegal). And before you say "just wait patiently" I will remind you that communication regarding release dates is... non-existant. So we're never even sure if we'll be getting the game at all.

So let me recapture that: The only way for us Europeans to play Tales games within a reasonable amount of time (and by reasonable I mean 'within a month at most' not the nine months they made us wait for Vesperia or the 5 years we had to wait for Abyss) or in the case of Legendia at all, we have to pirate.

We have to pirate to play a game we would love to buy legally, import costs be damned. We have to pirate it because old publishing restrictions that were created by technology restrictions. Companies are losing money they could have made if only they didn't put a region lock on their games. And we know these games are okay, because it's a Tales game. All Tales games follow similar patterns and none of them have different ratings anywhere.

So why?
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:07   Link #47
Flying Dagger
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You can always just follow the dark path and pirate all the DLCs. I did that with Dragon Age II and ME2.

A lot of DLCs these days bring in money for minimal amount of work.
For example if your art team has a concept for an armor set, worked on a unpolished model but it was rejected in favor of something else. A company can spend a little time to polish up that particular armor and sell it off as a DLC (bioware does this a lot).

If you look on the finance side of things its almost stupid if a company (such as CD Projekt RED) do not sell DLCs for money. Some take the middleground: 38 Studio+Big Huge Games packed a lot of content into each of Kingdoms of Amalur's DLC (haven't played them myself but that is what I get from word of mouth - don't kill me if I am wrong) for $10. DLCs rake in TONS of money.

Some people that love a game would pay money just to get "more" ("we will pay money to see an alternative ending to ME3!!!!"), while other see DLCs (esp DLCs without "content") as the next attempt from dev/publishers to open a black hole in your wallet.

Buying some games these days is more like buying into a platform for companies to sell DLCs on.
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:16   Link #48
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In all fairness, not all DLC is the same. Yes, a growing number of times it's just moneygrabbing, but other times they're genuinely well-crafted experiences.

Fallout has a couple of damn-good DLC's.
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:17   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
Buying most games these days is more like buying into a platform for companies to sell DLCs on.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:19   Link #50
DragoonKain3
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In regards to Region locks, I thought 360 was mostly region locked? That only if the developer intentionally gives access to all three regions (which is rare) would be the only exceptions?


As for DLC, I personally am glad it's there period. If I truly like a game, then I'm pretty much a whore for extra stuff that I'd buy the entire dlc as it comes. Granted it had only happened after one time (Dragon Age 1, where I bought every DLC and still bough the ultimate edition ), but it just goes to show if I like it enough, I go crazy.

If I don't like it enough? Then no biggie, I just move on to the next game rather than buy DLC. Goodness knows theres TONS of games out there... too many for my feeble amount of free time can handle.

Obligatory Extra Credits episode... http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/mass-effect-3-dlc
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:32   Link #51
Flying Dagger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
We know the legal implications of this are fairly minor, as there are as many region-free games out there as there are region-locked. Not to mention the PC platform, which does not even have this limitation on games to begin with (unless it's Nexon). So yeah, I'm having trouble believing the potential lawsuits or banning of games is the reason for region locks still existing.
Some PC games, a popular one being SC2, is "region locked". There are some technical restrictions on the PC. I believe Steam sells games at different prices around the world and they used to be "region locked" (I believe they might have changed this).

Quote:
Particularly that last example you mentioned is a personal pet-peeve of mine. A surprising number of the Tales games have been released in NA have either very late or even never been released in Europe, despite many players being very willing to buy them. The game is already English, so translation is not an issue. What is the issue though? The region lock.

The only way for us to play the game? Either modify our consoles to play games of all regions (illegal) or pirate the game itself (also illegal). And before you say "just wait patiently" I will remind you that communication regarding release dates is... non-existant. So we're never even sure if we'll be getting the game at all.

So let me recapture that: The only way for us Europeans to play Tales games within a reasonable amount of time (and by reasonable I mean 'within a month at most' not the nine months they made us wait for Vesperia or the 5 years we had to wait for Abyss) or in the case of Legendia at all, we have to pirate.

We have to pirate to play a game we would love to buy legally, import costs be damned. We have to pirate it because old publishing restrictions that were created by technology restrictions. Companies are losing money they could have made if only they didn't put a region lock on their games. And we know these games are okay, because it's a Tales game. All Tales games follow similar patterns and none of them have different ratings anywhere.

So why?
Unfortunately, that is one of the major downside about region locking. I am not sure about what happened to the Tales franchise in Europe. If there is money to be made but the company is too lazy/deem is too risky/believe is not financially logical then they might just be stupid (or overly careful and conservative).

Europe is often a victim because not every country has a high number of English speakers and all the various trade laws, legal issues, etc can be a pain (NA release only have to deal with US and Canada).

Developer D1 entrusts Publisher P1 for game distribution in the Asian regions.
License agreement for the entire franchise is sold to Publisher P2 for Europe (that includes future games in the series) for 10 years.
P2 is unsatisfied with the sales of product. Decides to keep license but does not release future products.
Because of the licensing agreement, the game would be region locked so P1's sales would not be affect by the agreement with P2 directly (because P1 might sell the game for $10 more than P2 due to aggressive promotion and game distribution/packaging).


I do not think region lock is not the only thing (and tbh, is not a factor) preventing developers in doing world wide releases.
(I would have added more details but I got dinner waiting)
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:33   Link #52
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1. Are MMO subscription fees outdated?

I've always laughed @ pay-to-play subscription policies. To WoW players, I particularly laugh at you people. Not once have I signed on to these pay-to-play MMO's.

The only model where I'd pay to play: Arcade Machines, particularly DDR.

2. Is it fair to charge beyond the initial purchase to unlock content already on the disk?

No. Unlocking things in a game? That should be earned by playing the game - not by paying into it. Any game designed in this manner - they're not worth playing in the first place.

3. Is it fair to pay full retail cost for a digital copy of a game?

Why buy a game right away? Instead, wait for the game to get old and buy used.

This is particularly true to any moron looking to play the latest edition of Madden. That's just pissing money away.

4. Are virtual console titles (like old NES games) over priced?

Yes. I remember a Super Mario cartridge priced at $0.10. Yea, ten frikkin' cents. To expect to pay 500 Wii points (roughly $5) for the same game... screw that.

I'll just turn to emulators for the old games. Though, some titles are worth getting the on Wii console - if you really are willing to pay that much.

5. Should virtual content be locked to account instead of device?

Pay to buy something - and the content is still in their control -- not yours. Sorry. Put it in my device please.

Unfortunately, some games give you no choice on this matter.
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Old 2012-04-16, 18:43   Link #53
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So let me recapture that: The only way for us Europeans to play Tales games within a reasonable amount of time (and by reasonable I mean 'within a month at most' not the nine months they made us wait for Vesperia or the 5 years we had to wait for Abyss) or in the case of Legendia at all, we have to pirate.
While it doesn't fix the problem, at least the newer games are on the PS3. If it's anything like the reverse would be, all you need is an HD TV and hdmi cable and you'd be able to play a US copy. Granted at this point it seems like Europe is getting JRPGs sooner than the US, but the point still stands for the newer Tales games.
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Old 2012-04-17, 03:03   Link #54
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dagger View Post
I do not think region lock is not the only thing (and tbh, is not a factor) preventing developers in doing world wide releases.
(I would have added more details but I got dinner waiting)
Oh, I know it's not a factor. Which is why it baffles me they still cling to them in a modern market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
While it doesn't fix the problem, at least the newer games are on the PS3. If it's anything like the reverse would be, all you need is an HD TV and hdmi cable and you'd be able to play a US copy. Granted at this point it seems like Europe is getting JRPGs sooner than the US, but the point still stands for the newer Tales games.
Oh, you have no idea how much I enjoy that particular bit of irony. I mean, I know I shouldn't, we're all out of the same luck here, but whenever I see a rage thread about one of the JRPG's that got an early European release, I can't help but grin and think "welcome to our side of the grass."
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Old 2012-04-17, 09:31   Link #55
Benoit
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Yes, because it is oh so difficult to make a PSN account for another country. It's so difficult, I have both a HK and Japanese PSN account but no American account, despite living in America.
While it is possible to do this, you are not supposed to, and Sony is being increasingly aware of this practice. Just like you can but aren't supposed to install the Homebrew Channel on your Wii to bypass the region lock.

Besides, even if you get an account in another region you have to purchase points specifically for it. Not everyone has a credit card to do this easily.

You can go snub someone else, now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko
So let me recapture that: The only way for us Europeans to play Tales games within a reasonable amount of time (snip) or in the case of Legendia at all, we have to pirate.
Seriously? You can import the game, you know. No piracy needed. Importing video games has long stopped being expensive.
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Old 2012-04-17, 10:39   Link #56
-Sho-
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MMO subscription these days well no , these years are big joke.
GW2 will show them.
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Old 2012-04-17, 11:48   Link #57
Keroko
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Seriously? You can import the game, you know. No piracy needed. Importing video games has long stopped being expensive.
Nope, can't play them on my consoles. Region lock. If I want to play them, I have to mod my console. Which is illegal and considered a form of piracy.

There's a reason why I love the PS3. Tales games aren't region locked there.
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Old 2012-04-17, 12:09   Link #58
Flying Dagger
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http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/04/17/wh...er-2-for-free/



I believe "modding" (via soft/hardmod) would only void the warranty of the console, but is not necessary a form of piracy (those copyright are you stepping over?). Some googling reveal this, but the case was settled outside the court. (No mod user was sued - only the creator)

If the game you are downloading/"importing" does not have a license holder in your country. It is not a form of piracy*. This is the same grey area in which unlicensed anime work in the fansubbing community.

*If you do it over BT and you upload the game to licensed regions you technically can get into trouble but usually companies hunt down the major seeders instead of the little fishes. Years ago RIAA tried to hunt down the little fishes with DMCA they get heavily criticized for sending their letters to people who cannot even use a computer. Those letters are mostly scare tactics as it would cost them quite a bit of money and effort to prove their case (esp if you claim the case of operating an unsecured wifi network).
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Old 2012-04-17, 14:05   Link #59
Paranoid Android
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
MMO subscription these days well no , these years are big joke.
GW2 will show them.
While their subscription-free decision will laugh at games like WoW and the business system. It's actually putting ArenaNet at more risk than it would if it was subscription based.

They're depending on microtransactions. Which destroys the quality of mmorpgs for a lot of players. ArenaNet staff can make up whatever they want to say about how their microtransactions but those are just pretty words to cover up the indifference.

I'm one of those players that wouldn't spend a penny on a mmorpg if all cash shop items are all visual effects, UI skins, bgm, w/e. I don't care at all about looks. I play for combat and group events. But the moment there's one potion/equipment/mount that's cashshopped, the game just changed its course to money milking bull shit.

And I'm not the only player that plays like that. And if we forced to pay a monthly subscription, whatever company isn't going to be able to afford to provide continuous support that a good game needs.

They could just not support the game at all after they release it. It'll be simply a good 'free mmorpg'.

$100 for an mmorpg is pretty much free. If Ragnarok never changed to F2P, and I never played on free private servers, I'd have spent over $1100 on that game lol. For WoW that would be several thousand excluding microtransactions. I don't see how ArenaNet can profit from only the initial sale. They have to break their game with cashshopping or ignore the game after release.
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Old 2012-04-17, 15:06   Link #60
-Sho-
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Well , look GW1 , they did a great job with the cash shop. Currently GW2's cash shop looks good too so there's no reason to be afraid.
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