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Old 2012-04-16, 23:01   Link #1061
larethian
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Ah-haha, seems like this shipping debate will never end even when I focusing on other things. It's fun, though I can't afford the time to list out long points.

Though one of my concerns does stem from the PSP game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw Fushimi saying somewhere he's writing the game scenarios (though I can't remember where). I'm afraid why volume 10 has something resembling a harem war is an aftereffect of him writing those scenarios .

But I think Ayase being a real sister of Kyousuke is way too far-fetched.
And having Daisuke accept an incestuous relationship will be too much out of character. If that happens, it will be a big-time 'fail' on characterizations, a no-no in writing of any story. Daisuke just told Kyousuke he will leave Kirino in his hands. How this gets interpreted as him accepting an incestuous relationship is totally mind-boggling to me, when it can have other possibilities (like what Sumeragi had previously speculated for eg.).

But if Daisuke really pulls a "Kirino is not our flesh-and-blood, that's why I'm leaving her to you, Kyousuke", I'll totally clutch my head and go WTF!, Fushimi!, and will never read his books again. Seriously speaking, I don't care whether the Westermarck effect is proven or disproven, I find it quite unnatural to develop romantic feelings with someone of the opposite gender living under the same roof since young even when she's not blood-related and is supposedly very good-looking. If anyone seriously have that kind of experience in RL before, it's time to speak up.
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Last edited by larethian; 2012-04-16 at 23:13.
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Old 2012-04-16, 23:14   Link #1062
bakAnki
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Originally Posted by Mystic_Vegetto View Post
But wait, you said "One of the Drama CD's"...I thought there was only 1 though? Was there another Drama CD that they released?
There's three, I guess. Or is it one drama CD that has 3 scenarios?

I've only listened the Ayase one, when she was taught by Kyousuke to play Love Touch game (parody of Love Plus NDS game where Saori Hayami is also voicing one of the available heroine ^^; ) so she can understand Kirino hobby. Though it fails, as she got the yandere bad end thus when she meet Kirino to show she could imitate the girl from the game, she's acting yandere ("Let's get rid of onii-san who's standing in our way" )...


Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Though one of my concerns does stem from the PSP game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw Fushimi saying somewhere he's writing the game scenarios (though I can't remember where). I'm afraid why volume 10 has something resembling a harem war is an aftereffect of him writing those scenarios .
For the second PSP game he wrote Kirino's not-blood-related route, Kanako route, Saori route, Kuroneko's Yamineko route, and Ayase's epilogue.

I don't know what routes he wrote for the first one though, but IIRC on the second game interview he mention since he had written Ayase route for the first game, he left it to other writer for the second game and later he happen to had more time so he could write her new epilogue.
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Old 2012-04-16, 23:50   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Though one of my concerns does stem from the PSP game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I saw Fushimi saying somewhere he's writing the game scenarios (though I can't remember where). I'm afraid why volume 10 has something resembling a harem war is an aftereffect of him writing those scenarios .
Indeed, the developments with Ayase in this volume constantly reminded me of her route in the psp game. I guess it is somewaht safe to say that that route was like a small teaser for this volume (Kanako included as well).

I would really like to see even more of the dad getting involved with the siblings. I remember the anime showing Yoshino checking out Meruru. Maybe the dad got into it as well .
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Old 2012-04-17, 04:54   Link #1064
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I'm having a bit of difficulty reconciling Kuroneko's incest comment with her earlier two comments about "I like you as much as your sister does" and "when it comes to liking you I won't lose to your sister". Does Ruri think there's a possible incest going on, or is it that she used to think there was but now thinks there isn't?
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Old 2012-04-17, 05:12   Link #1065
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I think reading a few comments of mine on the issue might help you.
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Old 2012-04-17, 06:56   Link #1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
I've only listened the Ayase one, when she was taught by Kyousuke to play Love Touch game (parody of Love Plus NDS game where Saori Hayami is also voicing one of the available heroine ^^; ) so she can understand Kirino hobby. Though it fails, as she got the yandere bad end thus when she meet Kirino to show she could imitate the girl from the game, she's acting yandere ("Let's get rid of onii-san who's standing in our way" )...

Ah, I remember that one. Hilarious. I think I saw a script for it somewhere before... I can translate it and post it here if anyone wants.

As for any of the short stories getting a chance of getting animated, I hope to see the Valentine's Day and the House-sitting one. Or we might get something entire original like the 1st season (episode 9, was it?)


Quote:
For the second PSP game he wrote Kirino's not-blood-related route, Kanako route, Saori route, Kuroneko's Yamineko route, and Ayase's epilogue.

I don't know what routes he wrote for the first one though, but IIRC on the second game interview he mention since he had written Ayase route for the first game, he left it to other writer for the second game and later he happen to had more time so he could write her new epilogue.
For the 1st game, he wrote Kanako's and Ayase's route. He also supervised Kirino's and Kuroneko's route. He mentioned these in the author's note in that PSP short story I mentioned a while back.



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Originally Posted by type-R! View Post
I would really like to see even more of the dad getting involved with the siblings. I remember the anime showing Yoshino checking out Meruru. Maybe the dad got into it as well .
It wasn't Meruru, it was MaiCity (MaiSora in the novel) - the anime adaptation of Kirino's cellphone novel.



Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Seriously speaking, I don't care whether the Westermarck effect is proven or disproven, I find it quite unnatural to develop romantic feelings with someone of the opposite gender living under the same roof since young even when she's not blood-related and is supposedly very good-looking. If anyone seriously have that kind of experience in RL before, it's time to speak up.
As much as I do not wish to talk about it...I actually do know someone like that in RL. Siblings, too. And no, I'm not joking.


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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I think reading a few comments of mine on the issue might help you.
I'd like to hear it too.

Regardless of whether Kuroneko is okay with incest or not, I think it is safe to say she is fully aware of Kirino's feelings. And no, I'm not backing down from this one (Kirino's feelings, I mean).

Like larethian said, the sibling's relationship changed dramatically after Kirino's return from America. And now, Fushimi doesn't know how to stop. He's slowly losing control.

And yes, I can understand this sudden buzz that we might actually get a non-blood-related development. There are hints before. It just got worse with vol 10. Daisuke's uncharacteristic calm demeanor was a bit surprising and alarming, considering they were talking about their children engaging in incest. (This was more or less emphasized (or exaggerated, depending on your stance) when we had the worried and spazzing mother as a comparison.) I guess some would see it as foreshadowing (and you can bet my balls that it was intentional on Fushimi's part. The sly little...).

So really, I wouldn't be surprised if he does go down this route. I mean, who would've guessed we'd get a sudden harem turn in vol 10? Who would've guessed their relationship would improve so well to a level that people are starting to wonder, even speculate, that incest is in play?

And then there are others. Like this,
Quote:
But if Daisuke really pulls a "Kirino is not our flesh-and-blood, that's why I'm leaving her to you, Kyousuke", I'll totally clutch my head and go WTF!, Fushimi!, and will never read his books again.
wwww I don't blame you.

Meh, Fushimi can't please everyone. I'm fine with just enjoying the ride.

If you ask me, I'd rather he not pull the non-blood-related card, even if he is going down the Kirino route. It would definitely be interesting if he could pull off that route while not destroying the premise of the story (comedy, family, etc). Though I wouldn't mind too much. *shrug* Whatever helps Fushimi sleeps at night.
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Last edited by VVolf; 2012-04-17 at 07:17.
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Old 2012-04-17, 07:06   Link #1067
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Quote:
But if Daisuke really pulls a "Kirino is not our flesh-and-blood, that's why I'm leaving her to you, Kyousuke", I'll totally clutch my head and go WTF!, Fushimi!, and will never read his books again.
One thing I don't want to happen if it is going to be a kirino's end.
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Old 2012-04-17, 10:05   Link #1068
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Seriously speaking, I don't care whether the Westermarck effect is proven or disproven, I find it quite unnatural to develop romantic feelings with someone of the opposite gender living under the same roof since young even when she's not blood-related and is supposedly very good-looking. If anyone seriously have that kind of experience in RL before, it's time to speak up.
Engaged to a second-cousin who lived practically next door for most of my first 13 years of life. Okay, it isn't the same roof, but it was practically so.


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Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
I'd like to hear it too.
The part where you said we should agree to disagree (the bluffing).


Quote:
Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
Regardless of whether Kuroneko is okay with incest or not, I think it is safe to say she is fully aware of Kirino's feelings. And no, I'm not backing down from this one (Kirino's feelings, I mean).
I agree too. However, the main difference between your thoughts and mine is that I do not believe Kirino has any incestuous feelings.


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Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
Daisuke's uncharacteristic calm demeanor was a bit surprising and alarming, considering they were talking about their children engaging in incest. (This was more or less emphasized (or exaggerated, depending on your stance) when we had the worried and spazzing mother as a comparison.) I guess some would see it as foreshadowing (and you can bet my balls that it was intentional on Fushimi's part. The sly little...).
Or Daisuke knew about Yoshino's plans and was just keeping himself detached? The more I look into the situation, the more I feel that the parents are actually happy with how the siblings are getting along with each other. Could it be related to the split between the siblings in the past, causing the dysfunctional relationship in the first place?


BTW, one thing I noticed is that most seem to not think that the pre-consulting relationship was dysfunctional. I think that's a fundamental issue which could explain why many feel Kirino actually has incestuous feelings.
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Old 2012-04-17, 11:27   Link #1069
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Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
I've only listened the Ayase one, when she was taught by Kyousuke to play Love Touch game (parody of Love Plus NDS game where Saori Hayami is also voicing one of the available heroine ^^; ) so she can understand Kirino hobby. Though it fails, as she got the yandere bad end thus when she meet Kirino to show she could imitate the girl from the game, she's acting yandere ("Let's get rid of onii-san who's standing in our way" )...

I managed to find it! The Ayase fan in me is nosebleeding all over from the lines her 'character' says...
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Old 2012-04-17, 11:52   Link #1070
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Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
Like larethian said, the sibling's relationship changed dramatically after Kirino's return from America. And now, Fushimi doesn't know how to stop. He's slowly losing control.

And yes, I can understand this sudden buzz that we might actually get a non-blood-related development. There are hints before. It just got worse with vol 10.
The way the first paragraph connects to the second is the part that puzzles me a bit about either the novel and/or the way some people interpret it. I haven't yet read the novel, but at least in the anime I think Kirino's behaviour was always a bit suspect. Even among anime viewers, there were basically two interpretations of the story: that this was a story about pure sibling reconciliation, or that this was a story (at least potentially and partly about) "less pure" sibling romance. With the anime version at least, I think either argument could be supported from the text, though the latter depends a bit more on "inference" (i.e. the hidden meanings behind the words said and gestures shown). Neither interpretation could be proven at the time because the story hadn't developed sufficiently to reveal where it was heading.

Now, it seems that the story has continued down a certain path that suggests that Kirino and Kyousuke's feelings for each other will be "an issue". But rather than saying "the author is losing control; he doesn't know how to stop", isn't this just an extension of the same hints that were present even in the early novels? Couldn't this have really been part of the plan all along, just people assumed it wouldn't be the case?

To be clear, I'm not talking about the way the novel will eventually end or how they resolve their feelings, which I'm rather agnostic about (I think there are many viable possibilities at this point, and I could support any of them if they're well-developed). I just find it strange that some people seem to imply that "no way; those themes weren't there at first", as if now, all of a sudden, the author "changed his mind". I think it's more likely that some people just didn't catch the hints in the earlier volumes, but now the author's making it more blatant/obvious so it can't be avoided. This is basically the problem with a story that allows for multiple interpretations; one of them will ultimately be proven correct (or, if they can't accept it, I suppose someone can just blame the author for "changing his mind" or "being influenced" or "selling out" or whatever).

Again: talking about themes being present, not whatever ending this will take, which I think is a separate issue.
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Old 2012-04-17, 12:07   Link #1071
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Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
There's three, I guess. Or is it one drama CD that has 3 scenarios?

I've only listened the Ayase one, when she was taught by Kyousuke to play Love Touch game (parody of Love Plus NDS game where Saori Hayami is also voicing one of the available heroine ^^; ) so she can understand Kirino hobby. Though it fails, as she got the yandere bad end thus when she meet Kirino to show she could imitate the girl from the game, she's acting yandere ("Let's get rid of onii-san who's standing in our way" )...
Yeah I've listened to it before. It was really good. But wasn't it Kanako in the end that she wanted to get rid of? Since she was imitating the game and all. Kirino's reaction...was priceless. And so was Kyousuke's too when he reacted to Kirino's reaction.

But wasn't that Drama CD part of a 2-Disc Set? The first disc used stories from the novels while the 3rd had the new story written by Fushimi himself that we were just talking about. I wanted to know if there are any other Drama CD's besides that one. Didn't the CE of the 1st PSP Game come with a Drama CD?

@relentlessflame

I couldn't have said it better myself. The hints were there, it was just a matter of whether or not you picked up on it or not.
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Old 2012-04-17, 12:50   Link #1072
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I just read the first 20 and last 20 pages of the novels, and boy, I never expected this turn of events. I'll read it in its entirety on my off day, but I hope the author doesn't pull the focus from Kuroneko too much . And Kyousuke damn better stay faithful.
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Old 2012-04-17, 13:10   Link #1073
bakAnki
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Originally Posted by type-R! View Post
Indeed, the developments with Ayase in this volume constantly reminded me of her route in the psp game. I guess it is somewaht safe to say that that route was like a small teaser for this volume (Kanako included as well).
They become closer but her route on PSP game and LN v10 gives different feels for me. On the PSP game Kyousuke keeps 'bugging' her with his constant confession while since LN v9 it was Ayase herself whom make her move to make Kyousuke sexually harass her

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Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
As for any of the short stories getting a chance of getting animated, I hope to see the Valentine's Day and the House-sitting one. Or we might get something entire original like the 1st season (episode 9, was it?)
Are the short stories canon, by the way? All I know is that the Ayase's story from drama CD was mentioned on her route on PSP game but PSP game of course is obviously not canon.

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Originally Posted by ID555 View Post
I managed to find it! The Ayase fan in me is nosebleeding all over from the lines her 'character' says...
You know, when I listened to it the first time I know absolutely nothing about Love Plus I didn't know they used its reference (well in fact I tried Love Plus recently because Manaka is voiced by Saori Hayami xD), so when I listened to it again just a moment ago I had a grin on my face when Ayase said, "Osu, Ayase da yo!" like Manaka, even the character's name on the game is Ayaka, combination of Ayase and Manaka xD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic_Vegetto View Post
But wasn't that Drama CD part of a 2-Disc Set? The first disc used stories from the novels while the 3rd had the new story written by Fushimi himself that we were just talking about. I wanted to know if there are any other Drama CD's besides that one. Didn't the CE of the 1st PSP Game come with a Drama CD?
Japanese Wiki only list the three stories on Drama CD section, I don't know if there's more from Blu-Ray/DVD bonus or the special edition of PSP game ^^;;


Btw, Watarai made another fan-art of Ayase & Kyousuke again x3
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Old 2012-04-17, 13:33   Link #1074
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Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
Are the short stories canon, by the way? All I know is that the Ayase's story from drama CD was mentioned on her route on PSP game but PSP game of course is obviously not canon.
They shouldn't be canon...but vol 10 mentioned Kirino's Valentines Day chocolate. Not sure/can't remember if it was referring to the short story though...

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Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post
Btw, Watarai made another fan-art of Ayase & Kyousuke again x3
lol

I always loved his/her Ayase artwork.

Basically,

Ayase is all wet. Kyousuke decides to lend her a change of clothing.

Kyousuke, "Here's a new sweater for you to change into-"
Ayase, "Can I burrow this one instead?"
Kyousuke, "Ah, that one's still hasn't been washed yet-"
Ayase, "(adamant) Can I burrow this?"

Honestly, I will never understand women and their fascination for wearing our used clothing...when I asked my ex girlfriend that, she said she liked the scent...



-----------

Okay, long post ahead for relentlessflame's post.

@relentlessflame

First of all, good to see you here too. Your posts are always fun and inspiring to read.

I'm not sure if you're asking about the non-blood-related or the incest hints though. So I'll explain them both.

The former? There's a few, nothing much to be taken seriously. Like I said, there are hints that support, and some that discourage, it. Kirino is definitely a Kousaka, since Kyousuke said he had witnessed her birth. So Kyousuke is the remaining possibility. As to why vol 10 made it worse, I've already covered that part a few posts back.

Now, the incest.

Okay, the first thing we should all be clear about, is that the ambiguity was deliberate on Fushimi's part, and it has always been a central/reoccurring theme in the series. And why wouldn't he, it makes for good marketing. Even if it's Kyousuke's own words from the novel, Fushimi has stated we should not take anything at face value.

So, naturally, it was always up for us readers on how to interpret it, and that's what I'm doing right now.

The incest hints/ideas were always there, right from the start (there's no denying it). Heck, some people even got that idea simply from the title. It's the elephant in the living room, yet also one of the main draws of the series. For me, even though they were always present, they had only struck me as nothing but teases. The two siblings were just that - siblings trying to patch up their broken bond. Their interactions/relationship never went overboard, nor were there any serious indication that they viewed each other as anything more than family.

Until volume 5, when Kyousuke begged Kirino to return with him. That was the turning point.

It's not so much as what happened in that novel (although it was quite alarming that Kirino gave up everything for a simple "I miss you", or Kuroneko's "Yes, I like you, no less than how your sister does too"), but rather how it changed their relationship.

Let's face it, in order to show their increasingly close bond, Fushimi will have to come up with something new every time, and each one will naturally surpass the last. It was only a matter of time when they would escalate to eyebrow-raising proportions.

From then on, the so called "teases" started to get a little out of hand, especially when romance started to take play.

Vol 7 practically revolved around Kirino trying to get Kyousuke's attention. The date (which was real on Kirino's part, confirmed in vol 8. She conned Kyousuke into taking her out), the fake boyfriend incident (we still don't know why she did it *hint hint*), the sticker photos on their phones, the little accident in vol 8 when Kyousuke landed on Kirino but didn't get up (he just stared at Kirino's beet red face), the fact that Kyousuke refused to get back with Kuroneko because Kirino didn't like it, Kirino started calling him "Kyousuke" - "I don't want 'Kyousuke' to get a girlfriend, but I hate seeing 'aniki' cry more" (why the deliberate differentiation? My answer: she's seeing him as a brother AND one of the opposite sex), "I won't make a girlfriend until Kirino has a boyfriend, but I don't want her to have one either", etc...I'm sure I'm missing a few. And Vol 9 took it to another level altogether...

Not saying anything is certain (again, interpretations vary. I respect everyone's views) but these developments are way too misleading to simply pass them off as simple sibling affection...especially on Kirino's part. I've said it once and I'll say it again, Kirino is definitely in love with Kyousuke, even Kuroneko knows this (partly why Kuroneko's words in vol 10 - you know which - didn't faze me one bit).

The bro/siscon elements are still there, yes, but it's their incredibly close - bordering on intimacy - relationship and actions that made me realized that it wasn't that simple.

Sure, it's okay for extremely close siblings to be against one another from engaging in romance, but the means in which these two did it begs to question whether such an act was something of a more sinister nature.

To me, it's a resounding yes. That kind of affection is not normal, bro/sis-con or not.

However, although it's beyond just sibling affection, it's still not quite into the taboo zone. Yet (because Fushimi will need to come up with something even more daring than the above). Do I want it to go down that route? Yes, because they are the most well-developed couple. I've said it before, the idea of KyousukexKirino came naturally to me. It's not for the incest. Even if they're truly non-blood-related, I'd still root for Kirino.

Incest or not, Kyousuke's and Kirino's feeling will have to be dealt with, that's for sure, unless we are seriously getting an open ending...

So really, if the anime (vol 1~5) has already given you the incest idea, let's just say vol 6 onwards would probably make your eyes pop out...

Again, this is MY interpretation and by God, I will stand by it. Feel free to disagree. I WILL accept and respect your views, but if you're going at argue, please do so with an open mind. The last thing I need is someone telling me I'm wrong by dangling the words "incest" like a fricken talisman in front of me...
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Last edited by VVolf; 2012-04-17 at 16:13.
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Old 2012-04-17, 22:10   Link #1075
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^Personally, I still don't feel the non sibling love between Kyousuke and Kirino... Maybe because all that 'I hate you but I love you' stuff is too sibling-like.
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Old 2012-04-17, 23:46   Link #1076
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^Personally, I still don't feel the non sibling love between Kyousuke and Kirino... Maybe because all that 'I hate you but I love you' stuff is too sibling-like.
I personally think that the way it's playing out, it's a lot more "tsundere" than anything sibling-like. I was pretty close to my two little sisters growing up but, suffice it to say, there was nothing resembling the sort of tension (particularly the sexual tension) shown even in the early part of this story, not to mention what seems to have developed since then. I know they justify part of this due to their apparent estrangement, so they were like "strangers living under the same roof"... but, even if you take that at face value, them recovering from strangers to normal siblings (who seem to have some amount of physical attraction to each other too) is not going to be easy. So I've honestly never been able to see their relationship as sibling-like, despite Kyousuke's rather big-brother-like apparent intentions at the start ("I'll put up with Kirino's unreasonable requests because she's my sister.")

Again, this is not a commentary on how the series will end or what will develop from here on out. But only to say that, to me, the theme has always been there because something seemed off; I could never pass anything off as "they're just siblings". Of course, as everyone has said, exactly why things felt off could be explained and lead to any number of resolutions, and I also tend to believe those that suggest that the stereotypical sibling endings we might imagine don't seem very probable.

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Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
Incest or not, Kyousuke's and Kirino's feeling will have to be dealt with, that's for sure, unless we are seriously getting an open ending...
Ultimately, I think this is what it comes down to me for me (and thanks very much for your kind words and detailed reply). It seems to me that it's "an issue" (a major issue) that has to be dealt with. It seems clear, for many reasons, that the path to any possible ending has to go through Kirino.

If you believe that Kirino thinks she wants to have Kyousuke to herself in every sense of the word, then the options in the story in my mind are basically: a) she sacrifices her feelings so that Kyousuke can be with the person he really loves (if that's the case, then the "reveal" has to wait longer so it's clearer that Kyousuke does really have another girl in his heart, otherwise he'll reject her sacrifice and choose her), or b) her feelings are reciprocated and either it works out or it doesn't to varying degrees. (There's also a c) that they do try going out for a while and eventually decide to go back to being siblings... but that's sort of a weird path to take, and I think unlikely since they've played the separation card a few times now with opposite effect. And I'm sure more options and variations I didn't think of...)

If you believe that Kirino is just confused and doesn't really love Kyousuke "that way" (and everything presumably works itself out somehow when the issues from the past are revealed and dealt with so they can be reconciled as siblings), then I wonder how they tie everything back to the central premise but still have Kyousuke end up with someone else. Just going "oh, I'm so glad I resolved that misunderstanding with Kirino; with that out of the way I can date whoever I please" is rather... plain, and doesn't really have to do with anything. If that's the case, it's almost better for them to have an open ending and for him to end up with no one (just end as soon as the misunderstanding is resolved), but then all of these chapters in the interim are really sort of pointless and meandering. (Could have just ended the story the same way the "false ending" of the anime did; everything from 5+ would be pretty much superfluous filler that didn't do anything but delay the reconciliation and keep the story going.)

So yeah... anyway, that's how I see it from my vantage point anyway, granted without all the small details from the novel. It seems more logical from my perspective to follow my gut feeling from the anime (and influenced by the PSP game) and think that Kirino's feelings are leading somewhere, even if the final destination is unclear. But, in either case, envisioning a "perfect ending" (certainly one that would please everyone) seems harder the further we go into this.
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Old 2012-04-18, 02:08   Link #1077
larethian
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@relentlessflame
Surprised to see you active in an LN thread filled with spoilers, which you tend to avoid
Unfortunately, I have really insufficient time to really post my points and start an extended discussion in response to your few past long posts. Man, doing just that short overview of v10 alone took me about 2 hours to draft that post. So normally, I just leave things be and go back to lurking, but it doesn't mean I 100% agree or 'surrender' in a discussion with conflicting views, ok? Just saying.

But just one glaring point (imho) to support VVolf's statement on 'Fushimi going out of control' (though I don't necessary agree with some other points of interpretation by VVolf, but it's fine and I'm going to hold my peace since we respect one anothers' views ): having Ayase going dere on Kyousuke was fine since there's plenty of foreshadowing from her behavior. But to add Kanako (with very weak flags) to the shuraba mix...... it feels to me like he's doing it for the sake of doing it......, so 'out of control' may be pretty apt.

With regards to the point on hints vs teases, the converse can also be true. Anyway, I'm going to hold my peace again.

Finally, it boils down to the feeling of a particular feel of 'consistency' and expectation building (or rather lack of 'strange' expectations throughout) when reading the first 5 volumes, and gradually a change in the 'feel' after that. Perhaps, this is just due to the fact that the first 5 volumes utilize plot devices involving Kyousuke 'rescuing' Kirino from her pinches and strengthening their bonds and then changing to romance focus later after volume 5. Not saying that this is wrong, but it just changes the 'feel' for me (but at a somewhat subtle rate). To me, those situations which could be viewed as 'hints' are really 'teases' to me. Because there's always a joking feel to them when they appear. And it's quite hard for me to believe a LN, read by not just adolescents but also teenagers and elementary school students and even girls (based on Fushimi's comments on his fan letters) will go down that route. To date, I don't know of any LN going down that route without pulling a not-blood related card. I rather not spoil on other series and anyway it's not like you guys might know of those titles since they have yet to be animated. Though there's one particular suggestive series (also imouto kind, but not OniAi) that I don't know much about. And I do stand to be corrected since no matter how much I'm into LNs in general (though 'specializing' more in action fantasies), there are simply too many of them for me to keep track of.

Also, just an additional piece of info which may not really be important. When Fushimi first wrote Oreimo (v1 covered in episodes 1-3), it was not a serialized series. (src: afterword of volume 2). And whenever the author described Kirino feeling gross (especially in the first few volumes) (recall, just as an example, the time when Kyousuke asked the question when he found out about Kirino's obsession with imouto eroge to verify whether she has a particular 'fantasy' about him), I felt that she's really feeling gross. Anyway, regardless of what Kirino thinks or wants, I'm very much convinced from Kyousuke's actions and monologue that he's just a siscon and doesn't really feel the 'forbidden' desire for Kirino, so I very much doubt that the series will end on that kind of note. (Even in v10, it was mentioned once or twice that he's still hurting from the breakup memories with Kuroneko, as far as I can recall).

Anyway enough of my rambling for now. (the more I type, the more I want to type; there are a lot of things I want to 'counter' or post my views, but I'm simply running out of time)

@VVolf
Btw, I did go back and read some of the afterwords of the first few volumes, check the last page of the afterword of v4. I either missed that or must have forgotten that. Seems like readers have a 'say' in the later developments.


As to where I think it will go from here, for now, I still believe in Kuroneko succeeding in her Arcadia plan in v8. (heck, even Fushimi said Kuroneko's popularity was surprising in v6's afterword).

So long, until v11.

(shit, in the end, I still took more than an hour for this even when I wanted to get it over with in 15 minutes. jeez, forums are dangerous places).
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Old 2012-04-18, 08:02   Link #1078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakAnki View Post


You know, when I listened to it the first time I know absolutely nothing about Love Plus I didn't know they used its reference (well in fact I tried Love Plus recently because Manaka is voiced by Saori Hayami xD), so when I listened to it again just a moment ago I had a grin on my face when Ayase said, "Osu, Ayase da yo!" like Manaka, even the character's name on the game is Ayaka, combination of Ayase and Manaka xD


It can't be as advanced as Love Touch, right?

I think I've become a pervert like Kirino and putting Ayase's dialogue on loop...
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Old 2012-04-18, 10:56   Link #1079
VVolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
@relentlessflame
But just one glaring point (imho) to support VVolf's statement on 'Fushimi going out of control' (though I don't necessary agree with some other points of interpretation by VVolf, but it's fine and I'm going to hold my peace since we respect one anothers' views ): having Ayase going dere on Kyousuke was fine since there's plenty of foreshadowing from her behavior.
Oh, what I meant by "going out of control" was only referring to the ever improving relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino. After vol 9, I was sure Ayase was gonna join in the fray, and there has been foreshadowing before that too. I mentioned that a few post ago.

And yeah, I guess we can at least agree that the harem felt pretty abrupt, particularly Kanako and ojou-Saori.

Don't worry. I'm fully aware of your stance in this. I won't try to convince you otherwise. ^^ It's the fun in reading this series. Almost nothing is definite, so it's only normal that how we interpret things would differ from one another.


Quote:
Because there's always a joking feel to them when they appear.
Actually, Fushimi does that all the time...when things get too serious/goes too far in a certain direction, he throws in a joke or a hilarious situation either to lessen the tension, throw us off guard, as a throwaway line, or simply to redirect the storyline away from where it's going (away from potential dangerous areas).

Most of the time, its for the sake of ambuigity. The sly old bugg-...


Quote:
To me, those situations which could be viewed as 'hints' are really 'teases' to me.
I can see how you got that feeling. The incest theme was toyed around since the beginning afterall. Who's to say if it's a simple tease or a reoccurring foreshadowing, especially when it gets more and more suggestive with the past few volumes.


Quote:
To date, I don't know of any LN going down that route without pulling a not-blood related card.
I do! No wait...that wasn't an LN. Dang...


Quote:
I rather not spoil on other series and anyway it's not like you guys might know of those titles since they have yet to be animated. Though there's one particular suggestive series (also imouto kind, but not OniAi) that I don't know much about.
Try me (er...I meant that in a non-aggressive way). I'm into LNs as well, and some of those I've read haven't been animated yet.

Oh, OniAi! "おにいちゃんだけどあいさえあればかんけいないよねっ", right? I just started reading that. Incredibly hilarious, and yes, it does pull the non-blood-related card.

Er...right, back on topic.


Quote:
When Fushimi first wrote Oreimo (v1 covered in episodes 1-3), it was not a serialized series. (src: afterword of volume 2). And whenever the author described Kirino feeling gross (especially in the first few volumes) (recall, just as an example, the time when Kyousuke asked the question when he found out about Kirino's obsession with imouto eroge to verify whether she has a particular 'fantasy' about him), I felt that she's really feeling gross. Anyway, regardless of what Kirino thinks or wants, I'm very much convinced from Kyousuke's actions and monologue that he's just a siscon and doesn't really feel the 'forbidden' desire for Kirino, so I very much doubt that the series will end on that kind of note. (Even in v10, it was mentioned once or twice that he's still hurting from the breakup memories with Kuroneko, as far as I can recall).
Almost all series are like that, since a lot are simple one-shots that got recognized/won prizes in various writting contests. Whether or not they get to be serialized determines solely on sales (of the first volume).

Can't say I agree with you on the gross part being true all the time. She's your typical tsundere, especially in front of Kyousuke. And you know how they work...they say things that aren't what they feel in order to hide their true feelings (mostly out of embarassment).

Again, speculation, and in this case (Kirino saying gross as she means it), it differs from time to time. The author said we shouldn't take anything at face value, as I said before.

I can't say much for Kyousuke. I can only say for certain about Kirino. Kyousuke is just as much a tsundere as she is after all...(in his own way). I agree with your view on him hurting after the break up with Kuroneko though (who wouldn't? It was against his will...so to speak).

What I do want to say, however, is that it really wasn't after Kuroneko's confession that Kyousuke started to really consider her as a love interest. Er...maybe I should rephrase that. Not the confession, but that kiss in volume 5.

The point I'm trying to make is - the female must make the first move first in order for Kyousuke to start taking notice (or at least telling us readers about his feelings for the girl), and such a move must be in a romantic manner (so Ayase doesn't count, and we all know how Kyousuke's repeated "sexual harrassments" were more or less just teasing).

Which is why I'm hella interested in hearing his thoughts if/when Kirino confesses.

Not saying he wasn't interested in Kuroneko before the kiss. He just never told us that before it.


Quote:
Anyway enough of my rambling for now. (the more I type, the more I want to type)
You have no idea how much that applies to me as well...a sequela from my University theses.


Quote:
Seems like readers have a 'say' in the later developments.
A lot of authors do (though I don't like it. I'm looking at you, Yomi Hirasaka of "Haganai/BokuTomo". But I guess that's business for any author...). Fushimi said once that he was surprised that Kuroneko was so popular. I'm sure that had contributed to Kuroneko being able to take the central role in vol 5, and of course, to be the first girl to succeed.


Quote:
I still believe in Kuroneko succeeding in her Arcadia plan in v8.
I'm half and half on this. One part of me believes that she still has the upper hand. Yet another part of me basically declared her death sentence when Kyousuke chose Kirino's feelings over hers (and his), and that her dream world was just that - a dying dream she's merely clinging onto.

Then again, there are those who intepret it as a threesome/harem (see? I just pulled a Fushimi here. Throwaway lines ftw)
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Old 2012-04-18, 14:26   Link #1080
Syokool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
What I do want to say, however, is that it really wasn't after Kuroneko's confession that Kyousuke started to really consider her as a love interest. Er...maybe I should rephrase that. Not the confession, but that kiss in volume 5.

The point I'm trying to make is - the female must make the first move first in order for Kyousuke to start taking notice (or at least telling us readers about his feelings for the girl), and such a move must be in a romantic manner (so Ayase doesn't count, and we all know how Kyousuke's repeated "sexual harrassments" were more or less just teasing).
Well, he isn't Araragi-kun after all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by VVolf View Post
I'm half and half on this. One part of me believes that she still has the upper hand. Yet another part of me basically declared her death sentence when Kyousuke chose Kirino's feelings over hers (and his), and that her dream world was just that - a dying dream she's merely clinging onto.

Then again, there are those who intepret it as a threesome/harem (see? I just pulled a Fushimi here. Throwaway lines ftw)
I don't interpret it as this will end in a threesome (or a harem) ending. Maybe, it's due to all spoilers and summaries there and here that people have a lot of different opinions.
Just like the father is approving incest and stuff.

Things like incest ending, non-blood-related sibilings, and etc etc can't be taken as if they are true until the very end (and perhaps, even then, we could have a open end).
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