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Old 2012-04-20, 18:32   Link #3261
happily_everafter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
And that really is the problem, if Amata is supposed to be overcoming all odds to win his girl and Kagura is supposed to be said odds, he's framed very weakly for it. So either we're supposed to draw from this that Kagura is actually where we think Amata is, or Kagura is a piss-poor excuse for dragging out a romance plot. (What I find worse is that they are dragging it on largely because of Mikono's swaying character and some absurd logic that no one is calling her out on.) They could make Kagura win a battle for once, take Mikono, and let them interact such that we can get some insight into their relationship but they just keep dragging that out too...

There's also the fact that, the way this has been portrayed, I cannot help but feel that the writers have shoved themselves into a corner. They present to you the Sousei love of Apollo and Sylvia, which ends bittersweetly, and juxtapose it over Amata fighting what, to the viewer as of so far, appears to Kagura(Apollo) and Mikono(Sylvia). This paints Amata rather poorly. Conversely, if Amata turns out to be the true reincarnation with Mikono, then he's not fighting fate at all and the whole narrative losses much of its punch.

The last part of this whole fighting destiny thing... is that Amata said to Mikono that he thought their meeting was destiny. Wide swings in coming! And why I stopped bothering with speculating...



Not at all, the narrative itself is actually fun and engaging. Its just that the romance aspects are really pushing their luck on being believable as the show continues to string along these two main romantic leads that cannot articulate a sentence to each other about some dude.
I thought there was enough evidence to prove that Amata is in fact not the "Apollo" we think he is. I thought Fudo was attempting to recreate the legend with Amata at the forefront while Mykage is trying to bring the legend into fruition so he may do something with the original Aquarion.

With that couldn't we say that both Amata and Kagura are indeed the reincarnation of Apollonius [note how I do not say Apollo]. The portion from the original Aquarion could have died the same time as Apollo did for all we know and it would start to bring things together. [With Amata making the new legend with Zessica, since both are reincarnations of Apollonius and Celaine] I could elaborate on my crack-pot theory if you want
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Old 2012-04-20, 19:11   Link #3262
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by happily_everafter View Post
I thought there was enough evidence to prove that Amata is in fact not the "Apollo" we think he is. I thought Fudo was attempting to recreate the legend with Amata at the forefront while Mykage is trying to bring the legend into fruition so he may do something with the original Aquarion.

With that couldn't we say that both Amata and Kagura are indeed the reincarnation of Apollonius [note how I do not say Apollo]. The portion from the original Aquarion could have died the same time as Apollo did for all we know and it would start to bring things together. [With Amata making the new legend with Zessica, since both are reincarnations of Apollonius and Celaine] I could elaborate on my crack-pot theory if you want
That's just it, there has been nothing indicting the sort, and in episode 16, they just basically proved that Mykage knows nothing about the legend of Aquarion from 12,000 years ago, nor anything about Apollo or Silvia outside of the in universe movie. Kagura's, Mikono's and Zessica's vision were all revealed not only to be false visions but also from the said movie.

So Kagura has never had any past visions at all (outside of the false one), so his authenticity is still in question.
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Old 2012-04-20, 19:30   Link #3263
miketyson
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wisteria233: I think it's still unclear what's going on with Mykage. Is it:

(a) he doesn't know what happened 12k years ago (because he was asleep maybe?)
(b) he knows the truth, but his plans need him to give Kagura bad information anyways (for reasons we don't know yet)

...? I don't think we know which is more accurate, yet.
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Old 2012-04-20, 19:38   Link #3264
Vena
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Romantic threat is one thing Vena, but I was also referring to him as a physical threat.
Well I did say that his level of non-romantic threat was that of a joke threat that served as exposition of how our main cast has powered or how powerful they were. I mean, in Episode 6, he was basically turned into Shrade's scratching post.
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Old 2012-04-20, 19:44   Link #3265
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
wisteria233: I think it's still unclear what's going on with Mykage. Is it:

(a) he doesn't know what happened 12k years ago (because he was asleep maybe?)
(b) he knows the truth, but his plans need him to give Kagura bad information anyways (for reasons we don't know yet)

...? I don't think we know which is more accurate, yet.
Well Mykage calls Apollo Apollon and Silvia Silvie so chances are he doesn't know, considering he has to ask where Aquarion is, which is something he would have known if he was around 12,000 years ago.
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Old 2012-04-20, 20:11   Link #3266
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Whatever Kawamori/Okada direction is, I agree that it is better they start to move the strings. I hope that they are not waiting for the beach episode to move. So far surely they are playing soft on both parts. Amata and Mikono are on hold, Zessica was on hold till last episode. Kagura, well he is the only one who worked hard for the little time he had, but if he had to have some more relevant role in the whole story he was on hold in developing his good points. That's why I think that they are holding back til the beach episode. And I'm addressing it to bad writing.

Still, I don't see why Amata should be blamed for going against the fated lovers. if the matter had been handled differently and consistently things would be different now. But we saw the real thing only after 16 episodes. Until now we have seen only movie references. (And it better they will give us a good explanation to that ). That's why I can't see any real definitive change in direction coming. Except for the twist that was foreseen by Ceyenne, twist that if they will wait more it will happen in the last couple of episodes
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Old 2012-04-20, 20:18   Link #3267
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I'd be able to agree with you more if Kagura and, by extension, Mykage were genuinely presented as threats. Mykage is threatening but without knowing what he's actually planning (for all we know he may want to save both worlds and that Fudo's been lying) he's a sort opaque fluid that just sloshes around and move the plot when necessary and hasn't shown himself to actually be against Mikono/Amata, and we know he's pulling Kagura's chain. Kagura, on the other hand, is currently in the MoTW non-threat zone as every time he appears, he losses. I'm not sure how the audience is supposed to perceive him as a threat to Mikono/Amata when Kagura cannot win and, in the only moment he's ever had his hands on Mikono, the writers invert everything we actually know about his character and, to a degree, make him somewhat sympathetic a character. Fudo is a larger threat to Amata/Mikono right now than Kagura is.
Kagura can't work as a serious antagonist threat (at a physical level, anyway) any more, imo. Not unless he actually wins in his next fight, whatever the context of that fight is. If he loses his next physical fight, I will be extremely "ho hum" about that, if not downright "meh". This is an area where you and I both agree.

However, I think that Kagura still works a little bit as a romantic threat because Mikono feels some sort of weird connection with him, and she definitely feels pity for the poor guy.

But note I call him "poor guy", and not with an ounce of irony. And that's because he's become really hard to hate or root against. He's actually pitiable at this point, in spite of all the death and destruction he's caused, imo.

You're right - He's handled more like a classic underdog protagonist (downright Popeye-esque, even ) than as a major villain. If this is all due to some grand bait-and-switch planned by Okada (we actually get Kagura/Mikono at the end) then I tip my hat to her for beautifully subverting several anime romance cliches/tropes.

But without such a bait-and-switch, this is a puzzling handling of Kagura's character at best.


Quote:

You could, honestly, just as easily flip the entire *fight for the girl* theme and aim it at Kagura. Why? Because he has never won, ever. He's this loser, chasing the girl, through torture, defeat, and pain... and he's your damn villain? That's not usually how a villain is supposed to be framed. He's supposed to regularly win and beat the hero, eventually steal the girl, laugh menacingly, and, after a long rescue arc, get beaten and the hero and girl reunited!
In my experience, underdog villains only work as filler villains designed to provide action scenes until the main villains make their move (classic example: the core Team Rocket trio, but not the full organization).

And maybe that's all Kagura is... although the new OP seems to suggest otherwise.


Quote:

And what about Zessica? Your cockblock on the other side is built a sympathetic girl in love who can empathize with our hero and worry about his problems... what? No one else in this show even seems to give a damn about Amata's problems aside from Fudo.
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If you ask me, they've put the secondaries (Zessica and Kagura) through more shit to prove their love for their respective target than the main leads because neither of them (the secondaries) has had their romantic interest handed to them on a silver platter since the first episode.

If you're going to start out as a blazing race horse then you need to introduce some genuine obstacles (Okada's Hanasaku had distance as a genuine obstruction, priorities and family, and later library-glasses girl, True Tears had a hateful mother spreading lies and a brother out to make his sister win at all costs and by any means possible. What does Aquarion have? Kagura who was removed for seven episodes? Zessica who removed herself for six episodes? There's just no believable obstacle for such a drawn out romance, unless, again, its not meant to be the believable romance.)
I strongly agree with this too.

There's nothing wrong with the main pairing here - with Amata/Mikono. In fact, I find them cute together, and they've had a lot of nice scenes together.

But the problem is that the challengers on both sides of it (Kagura on one, Zessica on the other) are coming across as working harder for it/wanting it more than the core pairing themselves do.

In other words, I get a sense that Kagura wants to be with Mikono more than Amata does, and I also get a sense that Zessica wants to be with Amata more than Mikono does. That obviously doesn't reflect well on the presumptive main pairing.

I mean, actions speak louder than words, and the actions are that Kagura is doing everything in his power to get his 'wench', and now Zessica has loudly confessed her feelings to Amata while also showing more consistent concern for Amata than Mikono has, imo.


Again, if this is all setup for a trope subverting bait-and-switch, then it might work out beautifully. But if (as is likely the case) the anime goes through with Amata/Mikono, then it's a strange way to go about it. At the very least, they're going to need to start making a more compelling case for Amata/Mikono by having one or both of them really strive harder to make it happen.
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Old 2012-04-20, 20:36   Link #3268
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Well I did say that his level of non-romantic threat was that of a joke threat that served as exposition of how our main cast has powered or how powerful they were. I mean, in Episode 6, he was basically turned into Shrade's scratching post.
Yeah but since then he's been steadily increasing the damage he could inflict on the cast...

Anyway, this wouldn't be so bad if Kagura has some other objectives that could be allow to achieve- If the writers don't want the kidnap to happen yet, they shouldn't make it his sole existence =_= But regardless, I still stand by what I've said that just because he didn't win, doesn't mean he lost easily.
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Old 2012-04-22, 07:18   Link #3269
Zuul
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post

The last part of this whole fighting destiny thing... is that Amata said to Mikono that he thought their meeting was destiny. Wide swings in coming! And why I stopped bothering with speculating...

I think that destiny line is just part of the corny BS Amata has been spouting left and right.

But it makes him look a bit like an hypocrite.
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Old 2012-04-22, 20:36   Link #3270
Vena
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If you ever get around to visiting here again Triple_R, after this episode we can continue our discussion I wager. I'll spoiler tag what I say since people may not have yet seen the episode.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's nothing wrong with the main pairing here - with Amata/Mikono. In fact, I find them cute together, and they've had a lot of nice scenes together.
Spoiler for Possible Spoilers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But the problem is that the challengers on both sides of it (Kagura on one, Zessica on the other) are coming across as working harder for it/wanting it more than the core pairing themselves do.

In other words, I get a sense that Kagura wants to be with Mikono more than Amata does, and I also get a sense that Zessica wants to be with Amata more than Mikono does. That obviously doesn't reflect well on the presumptive main pairing.

I mean, actions speak louder than words, and the actions are that Kagura is doing everything in his power to get his 'wench', and now Zessica has loudly confessed her feelings to Amata while also showing more consistent concern for Amata than Mikono has, imo.
Spoiler for Possible Spoilers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Again, if this is all setup for a trope subverting bait-and-switch, then it might work out beautifully. But if (as is likely the case) the anime goes through with Amata/Mikono, then it's a strange way to go about it. At the very least, they're going to need to start making a more compelling case for Amata/Mikono by having one or both of them really strive harder to make it happen.
Spoiler for Possible Spoilers:
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Old 2012-04-22, 22:44   Link #3271
miketyson
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Vena: you flatter me, but to give credit where credit is due I'm 99% sure you were the one who first pointed out that inconsistency ("why hasn't Aquarion gone berserk for Amata and Mikono yet?"), all I can claim credit for is
Spoiler for possible spoilers:


In terms of generally "what are these writers thinking (about Zessica/Kagura)?", I think what it has to be is that Amata and Mikono are the main characters, but for there to be meaningful issues around the identities of the reincarnations the writers decided there needs one more of each lead (whence Zessica and Kagura)...but for them to believably fit into the reincarnation shenanigans, etc., and to make them plausible they need to be built up into at least "major minor character status". That's all there is too it, I'm thinking. Note this isn't meant to take a stance on the actual reincarnation shenanigans, just that to have them also in the running means committing to a certain level of focus and certain amount of screentime.

In particular, they can't have Zessica exit the stage so soon, because she's working two jobs (romantic foil to the leads, but also involved in the reincarnation shenanigans).
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Old 2012-04-23, 00:47   Link #3272
Zuul
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^The way it's written it's difficult for me to think Mikono is in love with Amata. She's never shown sparing him a though. Right after episode 1/2 I would have bought it but now. I'm also actually questioning Amata's feelings. The dude that won't try to move on anything unless he fears Mikono is going to be taken away.

You cannot possibly start strong and then nothing happens for 17-2 episodes straight. I'm now coming with my kitchen psychology for explaining why they are clutching to one another while apparently not being that motivated in becoming more romantically involved. It's probably just sloppy writting and the fact they choose the wrong type of pairing to be dragged for 26 episodes. They should have stuck to the 'I hate you at first' formula. It leaves room for actual developement and not stagnation/backpedaling like now.

Now I'm reduced to cross my finger expecting they won't feel like 'developping' (stagnating is a more acurate word in fact) their main pairing to not lower the mood of the episode.
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Old 2012-04-23, 01:06   Link #3273
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Wouldn't having both Kagura and Zessica as "major minor characters" kinda redundant though? IMO one of them is more than enough to create obstacles for Mikono/Amata. Now we have the main relationship stagnant in ep 17, Zessica confessed and then got rejected by Amata and Kagura who I think has less chance than Zessica. It's weird that the plot only gets intense this late into the series and the final result will probably be Mikono/Amata because it's too late for other characters.

And for a main female lead (Mikono) the writers sure make her unlikeable. I wonder why. If Ano natsu can have two interesting love interests in Kanna and Ichika why can't Aquarion do the same? I like Mikono but Okada is making her too indecisive and passive for my liking. Amata really needs to be more straightforward soon. Perhaps he should meet his mother.

Last edited by crayven; 2012-04-23 at 01:18.
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Old 2012-04-23, 01:07   Link #3274
Vena
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You cannot possibly start strong and then nothing happens for 17-2 episodes straight.
The problem, all in all, is Kagura and how he's used in the story. He's never addressed completely, and every time he appears he causes Amata and Mikono to backpedal because neither of them opens their mouth to speak. Worse off, is that Okada (since she's the one who's written every one of those episodes, iirc) has used every second available to make Kagura and Mikono's bond honestly look like something of a disadvantaged protagonist (as Triple_R and I talked about earlier). What else are we meant to think when (on average) five episodes of Amata and Mikono are wound back by (on average) five minutes of Kagura and Mikono.

Spoiler for Genesis reference for sake of comparison:
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Old 2012-04-23, 01:44   Link #3275
Zuul
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Wouldn't having both Kagura and Zessica as "major minor characters" kinda redundant though? IMO one of them is more than enough to create obstacles for Mikono/Amata. Now we have the main relationship stagnant in ep 17, Zessica confessed and then got rejected by Amata and Kagura who I think has less chance than Zessica. It's weird that the plot only gets intense this late into the series and the final result will probably be Mikono/Amata because it's too late for other characters.

And for a main female lead (Mikono) the writers sure make her unlikeable. I wonder why. If Ano natsu can have two interesting love interests in Kanna and Ichika why can't Aquarion do the same? I like Mikono but Okada is making her too indecisive and passive for my liking. Amata really needs to be more straightforward soon. Perhaps he should meet his mother.
The relationship looks borderline abusive at this point. Instead of being happy with Mikono, most of the time Amata looks like a beaten puppy.
Episode 3, he couldn't gattai because he was being miserable because of her.
Episode 7, he almost lose to Jin because he was being miserable because of her.
Episode 13, 15, 17 was feeling miserable because of her.

It's rare it's actually shown in a positive light.


Not that everything has to be blamed on Mikono in my own opinion. Amata seems to put her on some sort of pedestal which prevents him from being confrontational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
The problem, all in all, is Kagura and how he's used in the story. He's never addressed completely, and every time he appears he causes Amata and Mikono to backpedal because neither of them opens their mouth to speak. Worse off, is that Okada (since she's the one who's written every one of those episodes, iirc) has used every second available to make Kagura and Mikono's bond honestly look like something of a disadvantaged protagonist (as Triple_R and I talked about earlier). What else are we meant to think when (on average) five episodes of Amata and Mikono are wound back by (on average) five minutes of Kagura and Mikono.

Spoiler for Genesis reference for sake of comparison:
That's exactly the kind of relationship I was thinking of when I was writting about 'I hate you at first ' relationships.

At first, seeing Amata and Mikono bonding so strongly from day one, I though they would use Kagura actually kidnapping Mikono for more than one episodes to avoid the stagnation and repetetiveness and their going nowhare despite having nothing in their way, and test their commitment. But it never happened.

I'm astounded that confirmed writters could end up doing such blatant mistakes. I'm not even speaking of that awkward 'fight destiny' theme.

That's why I'm one to still hope in some sort of bait and switch counting on troll Kagura (maybe with the help of troll Mikage). He's the one getting cockblock by Amata not the other way around. It is his love story !! Believe it !

Well that's why I want to believe because the writting is more satisfying this way.

Last edited by Zuul; 2012-04-23 at 02:15.
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:30   Link #3276
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That's why I'm one to still hope in some sort of bait and switch counting on troll Kagura (maybe with the help of troll Mikage). He's the one getting cockblock by Amata not the other way around. It is his love story !! Believe it !

Well that's why I want to believe because the writting is more satisfying this way.
In the end we'll all realize that Kagura and Mykage are the heroes of the story and Amata is in fact a reincarnation of nobody.

I like Zessica's development, but Amata's such a stale character. He's going nowhere. I'm starting to get the feeling this show is being hijacked by Zessica and Fudo Zen. They seem to have more screen time than Amata atm.
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Old 2012-05-04, 14:32   Link #3277
kuromitsu
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I have no idea where to put this, so...

I watched the BD/DVD version of eps 1-2.

Spoiler for ep 1 & 2 BD version:

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-05-04 at 14:48.
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Old 2012-05-05, 23:24   Link #3278
stardrago
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wow really? so I know like zero-raws put it up but I can't play that format, does anyone know who can put it up somewhere, like on Daily Motion or tudou, cause i tried those places but know one seems to put them up yet.
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Old 2012-05-06, 03:09   Link #3279
cyberdemon
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wow really? so I know like zero-raws put it up but I can't play that format, does anyone know who can put it up somewhere, like on Daily Motion or tudou, cause i tried those places but know one seems to put them up yet.
you just need the right codecs downloaded to play it
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:46   Link #3280
mixordia
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New Aquarion EVOL POLL:

Male:
http://anime.biglobe.ne.jp/userranking/chara/32229/

Female:
http://anime.biglobe.ne.jp/userranking/chara/32228/


Current male positions:
1. Jin
2. Kagura
3. Operator Guy
4. Shrade
5. Cayenne

Current female positions:
1. Sasanka
2. Zessica
3. Mikono
4. MIX
5. Yunoha
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