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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 74 55.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 22.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-21, 14:25   Link #41
konart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
A decent episode ruined by an epic fail with respect to the "contract." Kiritsugu pledges not to harm Archibald and his fiancee, or intend them to come to harm, if Lancer is ordered to commit suicide. Immediately thereafter, Maya snipes them both.

Sorry, but since Kiritsugu knew of this in advance (if he didn't plan it himself) and allowed Maya to act after the contract was in effect, Kiritsugu at the very least intended harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Once the contract was in effect, Kiritsugu had an affirmative duty to protect them from any harm that he knew was going to occur, and he didn't.

Contract clearly violated, so what's going to happen to Kiritsugu now?
I gueess it's a bit different from the three laws of robotics
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:26   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
A decent episode ruined by an epic fail with respect to the "contract." Kiritsugu pledges not to harm Archibald and his fiancee, or intend them to come to harm, if Lancer is ordered to commit suicide. Immediately thereafter, Maya snipes them both.

Sorry, but since Kiritsugu knew of this in advance (if he didn't plan it himself) and allowed Maya to act after the contract was in effect, Kiritsugu at the very least intended harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Once the contract was in effect, Kiritsugu had an affirmative duty to protect them from any harm that he knew was going to occur, and he didn't.

Contract clearly violated, so what's going to happen to Kiritsugu now?
put on his awesome Rules Lawyer hat

1. The order was given before the contract went into effect.
2. Any intend was again was before the contract went into effect.
3. contract did not require Kiritsugu to protect or warn Archibald

Therefore contract was not violated

Case dismiss.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:27   Link #43
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This episode truly shows the curelness of Kiritsugu is. Unsettling watchign Lancer so angry, so many people. I love how this show is able to make me sympathize with even a pride riden ass like Kayneth.

Great episode all around, tons of emotion and a good fight as well.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:34   Link #44
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That's your interpretation but that's not the way the contract worked. Not everyone believes that inaction is the same thing as the opposing action.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:35   Link #45
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Another great episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xKeir View Post
I was waiting for this episode since reading the Light Novel ...

Honestly, all Lancers in the Holy Grail War gets trolled.

And that is why i love Emiya Kiritsugu.

I loved the ending when Saber changed her tone and felt this .. however meager connection with Kiritsugu when she said of how his words depict one who had hoped for true justice once. Or maybe i'm thinking too much into that one sentence.
No. I liked that aspect of the scene as well, and it wasn’t just communicated verbally, either. There was definitely a part of it, when Saber loosened her grip and dematerialized her sword, in which her hatred towards Kiritsugu turned to a meager amount of pity. I also felt that the symbolism with the spinning wheel was a nice touch.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:43   Link #46
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Kiritsugu is FKN Boss. I love how he is the Try Hard master of the grail war. Also...Saber might whine and disagree with Kiritsugu all she wants but she could not have gotten a better master. What a downgrade Shirou was.

Last edited by Broskander; 2012-04-21 at 14:53.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:54   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
That's your interpretation but that's not the way the contract worked. Not everyone believes that inaction is the same thing as the opposing action.
Kiritsugu didn't do or mean any harm after the contract went into effect. He has won already and he knew it.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:56   Link #48
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I'm a bit confused.

When Sola-Ui got her right hand cut off, how come she stood up right away even after losing all that blood? When she was standing there was also no sign of Maiya until she turned around to see her hand still holding on to the fence (I'm surprised it didn't fall on the ground instead of just hanging there). I'm also surprised at how she was so energetic thinking about her right hand not being there instead of the pain of her arm being cut off.

Hopefully it will be extended when the Blu-Ray DVD comes out.
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Old 2012-04-21, 14:58   Link #49
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Sola was a nutcase I am glad she suffered lol. i don't know how but I felt sorry for Kayneth eventhough he was being a dick; then again I don't blame him after what he went through.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:13   Link #50
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Oh Lancer, yet again you must die this way... (´・ω・`)
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:14   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Contract clearly violated, so what's going to happen to Kiritsugu now?
The simple fact he could do that means the contract has no effect on him for that kind of action.
The word "contract" is often misused in general: it isn't the same as your usual business contract.

Here, the deal was settled by a strong device alike to a curse that would stop Kiritsugu to act that would bring harm to Kayneth and co. Therefore, the fact he didn't do anything for Maya was permissible for the conditions of the spell, since -he- didn't do that, pure and simple.

He has no obligation to protect them either. The simple condition is that he cannot harm them in any fashion, which is didn't himself.



Anyway, glad to have Kiritsugu VS Saber scene done: finally some sense knocked in this war, considering how difficult it was to consider Saber serious with her disruptive heroism and prideful honor which have no place on a real battlefield.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:15   Link #52
Trajan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konart View Post
I gueess it's a bit different from the three laws of robotics
Haha, yeah. Well, Asimov was a genius, these writers, not so much.

It just irks me b/c in addition to showing Kiritsugu is amoral/willing to do anything to win, the writers also intend it to show the cleverness/intelligence of Kuritsugu. It's another example of his ingenious planning and foresight. The problem is, most of his plans have glaringly obvious flaws. If you like to turn your brain off and watch 'splosions, that's fine. But for a series that wants to come across as smart, it's a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
put on his awesome Rules Lawyer hat

1. The order was given before Kiritsugu sign the contract.
2. Any intend was again was before the signing of the contract.
3. contract did not require Kiritsugu to protect or warn Archibald

Therefore contract was not violated

Case dismiss.
1. and 2. Actually, if Kiritsugu never intended to honor the contract when he entered into it, then he didn't bargain in good faith, therefore the contract would be void. But more importantly, its clear that after the contract was signed Kiritsugu still intended Archibald and his fiancee to die, so these two points are irrelevant.

3. Normally, its true that you do not have an affirmative duty to prevent harm from befalling someone. If I see someone choking on food, I can do nothing, watch them die, and not be civilly or criminally liable. However, this contract prohibited Kiritsugu from intending harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Therefore, it gave rise to an obligation on Kiritsugu's part to at least warn Archibald of harm that Kiritsugu knew was certain to befall Archibald.

Here's another way to look at it. There are two things Kiritsugu agrees to:
a) Kiritsugu pledges not harm Archibald and fiancee.
b) Kiritsugu pledges not to intend Archibald and fiancee to come to harm.

According to you, these both mean the same thing: Kiritsugu will not personally harm Archibald/fiancee. But if that's true, why have the second pledge? It must have a different meaning than the first.

*Moreover, since Kiritsugu is the one who wrote the contract, under the common law doctrine of contra proferentem, any ambiguous term in the contract would be construed against him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
That's your interpretation but that's not the way the contract worked. Not everyone believes that inaction is the same thing as the opposing action.
My interpretation is correct, and it is the way the contract should work. Intent is a mental state, not a physical act. Let's say I signed a contract with you that said "you give me $1 million and I won't harm you or intend for harm to befall you." You really think it would be okay if the day before we signed the contract, I offered my partner $500k to kill you, and then sat back and didn't warn you that it was going to happen? Please.

It's true that nothing happened to Kiritsugu after Archibald's death, but that's hardly evidence of anything. It's a mistake. Writers are not perfect. I'm sure if Rider called Saber "Foil" one time some apologist would defend it as intentional, but it would clearly be a mistake. Same thing here.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:16   Link #53
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Oh Lancer that was so tragic to see what happened to him. He was one of my favorites too.

And I was seriously all hating on Kiritsugu until he spoke about why he does things the way he does and then I was sort of agreeing with him....but why does it have to be Lancer?

I wanted to see that noble battle between Lancer & Saber.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:19   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
Haha, yeah. Well, Asimov was a genius, these writers, not so much.

It just irks me b/c in addition to showing Kiritsugu is amoral/willing to do anything to win, the writers also intend it to show the cleverness/intelligence of Kuritsugu. It's another example of his ingenious planning and foresight. The problem is, most of his plans have glaringly obvious flaws. If you like to turn your brain off and watch 'splosions, that's fine. But for a series that wants to come across as smart, it's a problem.



1. and 2. Actually, if Kiritsugu never intended to honor the contract when he entered into it, then he didn't bargain in good faith, therefore the contract would be void. But more importantly, its clear that after the contract was signed Kiritsugu still intended Archibald and his fiancee to die, so these two points are irrelevant.

3. Normally, its true that you do not have an affirmative duty to prevent harm from befalling someone. If I see someone choking on food, I can do nothing, watch them die, and not be civilly or criminally liable. However, this contract prohibited Kiritsugu from intending harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Therefore, it gave rise to an obligation on Kiritsugu's part to at least warn Archibald of harm that Kiritsugu knew was certain to befall Archibald.

Here's another way to look at it. There are two things Kiritsugu agrees to:
a) Kiritsugu pledges not harm Archibald and fiancee.
b) Kiritsugu pledges not to intend Archibald and fiancee to come to harm.

According to you, these both mean the same thing: Kiritsugu will not personally harm Archibald/fiancee. But if that's true, why have the second pledge? It must have a different meaning than the first.

*Moreover, since Kiritsugu is the one who wrote the contract, under the common law doctrine of contra proferentem, any ambiguous term in the contract would be construed against him.



My interpretation is correct, and it is the way the contract should work. Intent is a mental state, not a physical act. Let's say I signed a contract with you that said "you give me $1 million and I won't harm you or intend for harm to befall you." You really think it would be okay if the day before we signed the contract, I offered my partner $500k to kill you, and then sat back and didn't warn you that it was going to happen? Please.

It's true that nothing happened to Kiritsugu after Archibald's death, but that's hardly evidence of anything. It's a mistake. Writers are not perfect. I'm sure if Rider called Saber "Foil" one time some apologist would defend it as intentional, but it would clearly be a mistake. Same thing here.
the wording - No intend to Harm NOT no Intend for Harm to befall you. Slight difference in the wording but very different in the meaning.

Kiritsugu follow the exact wording on his contract. Whether he violated the spirit of the contract doesn't matter as long he didn't violate the wording of it.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:22   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
1. and 2. Actually, if Kiritsugu never intended to honor the contract when he entered into it, then he didn't bargain in good faith, therefore the contract would be void. But more importantly, its clear that after the contract was signed Kiritsugu still intended Archibald and his fiancee to die, so these two points are irrelevant.
Again, this has no relevancy whatsoever. The spell prevents him to do anything against Kayneth and co. only on the moment it has been sealed and thereafter. It doesn't force him to stop any schemes prepared beforehand.

Quote:
3. Normally, its true that you do not have an affirmative duty to prevent harm from befalling someone. If I see someone choking on food, I can do nothing, watch them die, and not be civilly or criminally liable. However, this contract prohibited Kiritsugu from intending harm to befall Archibald and his fiancee. Therefore, it gave rise to an obligation on Kiritsugu's part to at least warn Archibald of harm that Kiritsugu knew was certain to befall Archibald.
You are looking this whole point with a law/court perspective, while it has nothing to do in this case. It is a spell that would simply restrict the practioner will and possibilities to go against the conditions of the said spell.
The spell has the only 1 condition: Kiritsugu cannot harm himself Kayneth and his entourage.
It would be another matter if the condition was "Kiritsugu has to protect Kayneth at all cost".
Quote:
My interpretation is correct, and it is the way the contract should work. Intent is a mental state, not a physical act. Let's say I signed a contract with you that said "you give me $1 million and I won't harm you or intend for harm to befall you." You really think it would be okay if the day before we signed the contract, I offered my partner $500k to kill you, and then sat back and didn't warn you that it was going to happen? Please.
That paragraph explains clearly the fatal flaw of your reasoning: the premise of actual contract is wrong and not applicable here. Think of it as a "restriction curse" not a contract that which is under the directive of laws.

Quote:
It's true that nothing happened to Kiritsugu after Archibald's death, but that's hardly evidence of anything. It's a mistake. Writers are not perfect. I'm sure if Rider called Saber "Foil" one time some apologist would defend it as intentional, but it would clearly be a mistake. Same thing here.
It is not a business contract, and it is -not something that would lead to a penalty-.
It is a curse that would OUTRIGHT prevents Kiritsugu to harm them, therefore, he CANNOT do anything for real. It isn't a "if you fail to do that, punishment time", that's not the way it works and that's the reason why Kayneth could seal the deal, because there is NO magus that can go against a self restriction curse of this caliber.

Even if Kiritsugu wished to do so, the spell would make him unable to points a gun against Kayneth and shoot: the spell is already in effect. From that very moment, Kiritsugu himself cannot harm Kayneth and -he- alone.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:24   Link #56
Trajan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The simple fact he could do that means the contract has no effect on him for that kind of action.
The word "contract" is often misused in general: it isn't the same as your usual business contract.

Here, the deal was settled by a strong device alike to a curse that would stop Kiritsugu to act that would bring harm to Kayneth and co. Therefore, the fact he didn't do anything for Maya was permissible for the conditions of the spell, since -he- didn't do that, pure and simple.

He has no obligation to protect them either. The simple condition is that he cannot harm them in any fashion, which is didn't himself.
False. The second clause clearly encompasses more than just Kiritsugu harming them himself. Otherwise, it is duplicative of the first and there would be no point in including it. This is also reinforced by the fact that the pledge extends even after Kiritsugu's death. If only his personal actions are prohibited, then why would the pledge need to remain in place after his death?

I've admitted above that Kiritsugu was not "punished," and its true he was allowed to stand by and watch it happen. You can think that this works out somehow, but if you're willing to break the 4th wall, the simplest explanation is that the writers didn't carefully consider the situation they were creating.

BTW - Under your intepretation Kiritsugu could just shoot them himself, since he himself didn't kill them, the bullets did, he just pulled the trigger. No difference between that and telling Maya to pull the trigger herself.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:30   Link #57
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Well the thing with contracts even in real ones people try to get around them all the time with wording. That is why you put every possible scenario in the contract.

Morally did Kiritsugu cheat the contract well I would say yes. But the contract isn't concerned with morals and what is right but with wording. It doesn't mention that Kiritsugu cannot intend to harm Kayneth because someone else would do his dirty work. The only thing the contract said is Kiritsugu cannot himself harm Kayneth. Hence the contract was not broken, even if it does seem unfair.
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Old 2012-04-21, 15:37   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan View Post
the simplest explanation is that the writers didn't carefully consider the situation they were creating.
No, the simplest solution is that you're adding too much that doesn't have to be there.
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Old 2012-04-21, 16:06   Link #59
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1) Kiritsugu couldn't harm Kayneth because the contract said that only Kiritsugu couldn't harm him.
2) Maya, on the other hand, wasn't mentioned anywhere on the contract and therefore can act freely.
3) Maya kills Kayneth and company on orders from Kiritsugu.
So, in summary, Kiritsugu never violated the contract.

At least, that's my interpretation of what happened.
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Old 2012-04-21, 16:13   Link #60
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Well, that was just..........cold(in a good way). My mouth just dropped after seeing Sola's arm cut so nonchalantly. I mean WTF, Maiya just came from behind sliced off Sola's arm like it was her birthday cake.
Kiritsugu.............I like cold, calculating guys who won't think twice before burying bullets in someone's head but what I don't like are cheap tricks. Actually I didn't care much about Kayneth to feel anything for him, but Lancer deserved better.
Even though I agree with most of what Kiritsugu said, I'm still on Saber's side. I like her too much to against her(openly anyway)

I think this the third straight episode that I have given 10 rating
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