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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 28
10: Amazing... 4 8.33%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 4 8.33%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 13 27.08%
7 out of 10: Good... 12 25.00%
6 out of 10: Average... 7 14.58%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 5 10.42%
4 out of 10: Poor... 3 6.25%
3 out of 10: Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 0 0%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-22, 14:24   Link #61
Rising Dragon
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Nah, I don't think Kio will end up killing Zeheart. If he does it'll probably be an accident. Zeheart feels more tolerant of Earthers on account of living among them and befriending four of them. I think he'd be willing to negotiate otherwise.
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:30   Link #62
atilim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
So because one side has no interest in peace, it's okay for the other side to wipe out the other entirely? Because that's what Flit wants.

Again, attending your son's wedding is something you make time for. The only acceptable excuse would have been something serious enough that would have put Asem in action too.

There's too much Flit siding here. The only people who wish to commit mass-murder/genocide (and there's no argument here; Flit's wording precisely states he wants to wipe out all Vegans) are not good people. Good luck finding any other Gundam characters without serious issues who wouldn't smack Flit in the face. There's no defending someone who wants to wipe out an entire race. There's just no excuse. The only thing that will save Flit from becoming truly evil now is if sopmebody stops him, or he has an epiphany and stops himself, but commiting genocide is not what a good guy does. There's just no arguing that.
Sorry but what do you suggest Earth does then if Vagan refuses any form of peace?

In order to have any form of peace their all parties need to want it, before Flit was in any situation where he could influence politics the Earth Fed. already made (non)public offers for peace. After refusing those offers any form of negotiation is pointless unless the peace offer comes from Vagan and not from the Fed.

And again you don't know the current political situation Flit is in, he could be literately arresting a person that is/was working with Vagan at that moment and letting him escape could mean ton of information being passed that could destroy everything he has been fighting for all this time(extreme scenario but you just don't know).
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:46   Link #63
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by atilim View Post
Sorry but what do you suggest Earth does then if Vagan refuses any form of peace?

In order to have any form of peace their all parties need to want it, before Flit was in any situation where he could influence politics the Earth Fed. already made (non)public offers for peace. After refusing those offers any form of negotiation is pointless unless the peace offer comes from Vagan and not from the Fed.

And again you don't know the current political situation Flit is in, he could be literately arresting a person that is/was working with Vagan at that moment and letting him escape could mean ton of information being passed that could destroy everything he has been fighting for all this time(extreme scenario but you just don't know).
How about not commiting genocide? That's always a nice idea. And I'm no general, but I'm pretty sure wars have been fought and won without exterminating the other side in both fiction and real life, even when both sides were dead set on taking the other down.

It's black-and-white, pure and simple; mass-murder/genocide/extermination = bad/evil. If you honestly believe otherwise, you have fanboy blindness. I'm sorry, but it's true. There's nothing good, at all, about genocide.

And try to stay on topic; Flit's crystal-clear declaration that he wants to wipe out the Vegan. The current political situation has nothing to do with that, nor does it excuse any desires for extermination. Genocide = bad. There's no buts, thoughs, or howevers. You know the only kind of guys that want to erradicate a whole race? Bad guys. In anime, including Gundam, they're called such. In our world, guys similar to this exist. They do things called ethnic cleansing. They're not exactly looked upon in a good light. A guy named Hitler had this thing called the "Final Solution" back around the 1940's that was similar. People don't think very well of that either.

Whatever happened to guys who want to continue wars to the point of extermination being the bad guys? The fascist Titans, the New EF and Space Rebellion, the Alliance and Plant? Flit gets a pass because he was the main character of the first arc? Because he's a badass pilot? I don't think so.
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:54   Link #64
monster
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Wow, just wow, Zant has a giant mobile suit and the chance to kill Flit Asuno, and what does he do? He takes the time to target a single person.

I've complained before about the perceived incompetence of the Vagan, but this is a whole new low, even for them. And I don't care if letting Flit lives for now turns out to be part of Ezelcant's plan. As far as I'm concerned, this war has been going on this long (and will continue to go on much longer) due primarily to Vagan (Ezelcant's?) incompetence, and not just because Mars is far away or the Vagans having less resources.

As for the rest of the episode, meh. Just bring on Kio. Third time's the charm? I hope so, got high hopes for him.

Times skips are great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atilim View Post
Sorry but what do you suggest Earth does then if Vagan refuses any form of peace?
Defeat them and force them to surrender, just like it has been done in history. No one is saying that Earth shouldn't defend itself from attacks, but that's not to say that they should just annihilate their entire enemy population either.
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:55   Link #65
Nivek von Beldo
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Haven't watched the Chapter, waiting for English Subs.

But in the Flit Debate... the whole situation and how he become more and more extremist with the Veigan is not more how the things have unfold to him...

First his mother was killed in the Second Colony Attack, his 'guardian' and friend who was Bruzar die in the third when found about the gundam, the whole mini.war he fight in the First Generation make him think low about them.... and them the Yurin Incident and all, that was the last straw in his psyche as a child.

Now as Adult, Figthing for more than 25 years, the Veigan Refuse any chance of peace, them Grodek tell him about a conspiracy and result to be true and kill another of his friend, them found that the high goverment was involved as a way to burry their mistakes...

I can Understand the Flit fall into darkness even if now become worse than ever... at least in S2 he only want them to return back their hole in Mars. now... i can't read him.

About Asemu Wedding... what if that happen at the moment of the 'Coup D'Etat?
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:05   Link #66
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivek von Beldo View Post
*snip*
Doesn't matter. He doesn't have the right to wipe out a whole population because he had bad things happen to him. Is he suddenly the only person in the world who has suffered?
Your post actually made me realize another fault he has; he's selfish. This whole grudge is selfishness and ego. What makes his suffering so special that he's allowed to wipe out a whole race? Lots of people suffer, Flit. Some suffer even worse than you, but you don't see them all taking up arms and making other peoples' lives miserable, much less desiring genocide. You're not that special by any means.

Quote:
About Asemu Wedding... what if that happen at the moment of the 'Coup D'Etat?
It wasn't. The coup was happening before that. Hence Flit taking int he prime minister, and hence the narration before the scene of the wedding.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:11   Link #67
Liquidzero
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The Federation Strikes BACK!!!

It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Emperor Flit and his right hand Darth Asemu succeed in consolidating Federation Supremacy by weeding out government officials sympathetic to the Rebellion, Han Zeharto is locked in carbonetic sleep by the evil gangster Ezcalant the Hut. Things could not look worse for the Vagan Rebellion.

Stay tuned for Episode VI Return of the Vagan

seriously...well beam sabers were inspired by Star Wars IIRC.

RomaryXAsemu lame pairing. Sure it was implied since the beginning of the arc, but it sure wasn't developed well at all. When I saw them sitting apart on the bench i was like: sweet dump her! They totally copped off the her siding with Zehart, oh I just admired the two of you! At least she was right in admitting she was unfairly projecting her impressions of them. But throughout the arc she rarely showed any actual concern for Asemu at all.

The real loss goes out to Obright though, reverse death flagging someone really tugs at the heart strings.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:16   Link #68
kakakka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Wow, just wow, Zant has a giant mobile suit and the chance to kill Flit Asuno, and what does he do? He takes the time to target a single person.
Why? What?

Zant's main objective was to kill that prime minister. It's not just an attack just because he wants to.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:27   Link #69
SoldierOfDarkness
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Doesn't matter. He doesn't have the right to wipe out a whole population because he had bad things happen to him. Is he suddenly the only person in the world who has suffered?
Your post actually made me realize another fault he has; he's selfish. This whole grudge is selfishness and ego. What makes his suffering so special that he's allowed to wipe out a whole race? Lots of people suffer, Flit. Some suffer even worse than you, but you don't see them all taking up arms and making other peoples' lives miserable, much less desiring genocide. You're not that special by any means.
.
The same can be said of you guys.

Your are pretty much excusing all of the Vagan's actions due to a decision a government CENTURIES ago made.

Quote:
Defeat them and force them to surrender, just like it has been done in history. No one is saying that Earth shouldn't defend itself from attacks, but that's not to say that they should just annihilate their entire enemy population either.
Isn't that what he's doing?

And how exactly would one annihilate the population when it's at Mars to begin with?

I find it hilarious you guys go to great lengths to defend the Vagans and paint them as the victims when it's them that are using civilians as human shields and massacring colonies to begin with. Then when they have no use for their spies they simply execute them. I mean it's okay for the Vagans to play dirty and talk about how they're the superior species to humans but not Flit for moving in to clean it up?

The Federation has zero choice but to stay on the defensive. To send an actual expedition to Mars wouldn't be productive at all. This is WHY they were trying to negotiate peace with the Vagans to begin with. Since it failed it was up to Flit to prepare for their attacks which he has done succesfully so far.

You guys are trying so hard to paint Flit as some evil genocidal maniac is just sad and pathetic. He's the main character. It's not going to happen. What's going to happen is that Kio may serve as the bridge to resolving the crisis with the Vagans.

What doesn't make any sense is if the Prime Minister was in cahoots with the Vagans why did the negotiations failed? He could've steered to a peace treaty that would be favourable to them (Give them portions of Earth for re-settlement) yet that didn't happen.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2012-04-22 at 15:41.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:28   Link #70
atilim
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
How about not commiting genocide? That's always a nice idea. And I'm no general, but I'm pretty sure wars have been fought and won without exterminating the other side in both fiction and real life, even when both sides were dead set on taking the other down.

It's black-and-white, pure and simple; mass-murder/genocide/extermination = bad/evil. If you honestly believe otherwise, you have fanboy blindness. I'm sorry, but it's true. There's nothing good, at all, about genocide.

And try to stay on topic; Flit's crystal-clear declaration that he wants to wipe out the Vegan. The current political situation has nothing to do with that, nor does it excuse any desires for extermination. Genocide = bad. There's no buts, thoughs, or howevers. You know the only kind of guys that want to erradicate a whole race? Bad guys. In anime, including Gundam, they're called such. In our world, guys similar to this exist. They do things called ethnic cleansing. They're not exactly looked upon in a good light. A guy named Hitler had this thing called the "Final Solution" back around the 1940's that was similar. People don't think very well of that either.

Whatever happened to guys who want to continue wars to the point of extermination being the bad guys? The fascist Titans, the New EF and Space Rebellion, the Alliance and Plant? Flit gets a pass because he was the main character of the first arc? Because he's a badass pilot? I don't think so.
If the people from Vagan decide to stop calling themselves Vagan and surrender then you also wipe them out.

At this point it seems to me that the majority of the people form Vagan are extremist that will literally fight till the last breath or until they accomplished their goals.

And judging from Vagans actions (no desire for peace even if they get everything they want) it seems that their goal is to exterminate every human on Earth, at least this is what Flit would think because their is no logical reason to not aim for peace when it is proposed by the puppet government you control.

And Flit's actions and the actions of organizations like Titans and Blue Cosmos is hardly on the same level (excluding Plant because they can justify most of their actions except destroying earth), till now we have never seen Flit to use methods that are unethical, at best he did what has to be done in order to protect innocent people (even the colony thing during Age 2 arc), up till now the soldiers of Vagan are the trigger happy that like to fight in places where their are allot of civilians.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:44   Link #71
Nivek von Beldo
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You're Right Altim and Soldier of Darkness. Shinji103, The veigan are not Zeon, heck even Zeon wasn't that cool.

Here is when AGE is a truly Gundam series... even if the bad guys are bad guys(as Zeon was Nazi Germany in Space), we still root for them somehow... Tomino Would have been Proud...XD

In general my original feeling was than Flit want the Veigan to return that red sphere of them and forget about the Earth...as a defeated people, much like ww2 germany or Japan, but the Veigan Action only push him more and more to a more radical way.


In fact we've been pretty 'clean' in this war... we are the nukes? with not a little mission ala Seed and send several nuclear cruiser to Veigan Homeworld to crush them... that is a simple solution but never have happen... for now

If is true than Kio is Uso 2.0... them after Elzecant reveal his pyscho weapon and all.. maybe peace will achive
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:46   Link #72
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Isn't that what he's doing?
The diiference is Flit won't even leave room for the idea that they would be able to have come to terms with the Vagans in the future.
Quote:
And how exactly would one annihilate the population when it's at Mars to begin with?
Ever heard of space travel?

But seriously, Flit said it himself that he was planning to annihilate all Vagans all along. As far as Flit's concerned, Vagans are evil itself.
Quote:
I find it hilarious you guys go to great lengths to defend the Vagans and paint them as the victims when it's them that are using civilians as human shields and massacring colonies to begin with. Then when they have no use for their spies they simply execute them. I mean it's okay for the Vagans to play dirty but not Flit for moving in to clean it up?
I find it hilarious that you would go to such great lengths at attacking a stance that nobody (certainly not I) is taking.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:46   Link #73
kakakka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Your post actually made me realize another fault he has; he's selfish. This whole grudge is selfishness and ego. What makes his suffering so special that he's allowed to wipe out a whole race? Lots of people suffer, Flit. Some suffer even worse than you, but you don't see them all taking up arms and making other peoples' lives miserable, much less desiring genocide. You're not that special by any means.
That's because he is special. He is a saviour of Earth Sphere!

(You can see how corrupted Flit has become. The First Generation was all light and placing all hopes on saviour!Flit. Now that he has been in the battle for too long, he's become tainted and all he can think about is wiping out the enemy. And he can't turn back now; those who had died and placed their hopes on him would have died for nothing.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The same can be said of you guys.

Your are pretty much excusing all of the Vagan's actions due to a decision a government CENTURIES ago made.
I don't think that's the point. The poster is against Genocide, which what Flit declared he wants to do with clear voice and glaring eyes.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:47   Link #74
monster
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Why? What?

Zant's main objective was to kill that prime minister. It's not just an attack just because he wants to.
Having that line of thinking is exactly what I would call being incompetent. Zant should have been able to see the value in killing Flit (along with the prime minister).
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:52   Link #75
kakakka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Having that line of thinking is exactly what I would call being incompetent. Zant should have been able to see the value in killing Flit (along with the prime minister).
I think he could have killed anyone there if he can.

But Flit is not the target. The prime minister and the government being humiliated by the enemy has more blow to the EF's morale than killing someone that can be replaced.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:52   Link #76
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by atilim View Post
If the people from Vagan decide to stop calling themselves Vagan and surrender then you also wipe them out.
..........huh?

*sigh* I guess some people just can't give up being die-hard fanboys.......There is NO excuse for commiting genocide. You're wrong. Period. As wrong as if you were defending a guy proven to have commited murder with concrete, unedited proof.

Quote:
At this point it seems to me that the majority of the people form Vagan are extremist that will literally fight till the last breath or until they accomplished their goals.
Remember the Japanese? How about kamikazes.? That was pretty "fighting til their last breath" too, y'know. Unfortunatley we ended up dropping the bombs on Japan, but we still didn't erradicate their whole population.

Quote:
And judging from Vagans actions (no desire for peace even if they get everything they want) it seems that their goal is to exterminate every human on Earth, at least this is what Flit would think because their is no logical reason to not aim for peace when it is proposed by the puppet government you control.
Even if that were true and they wanted to exterminate all earthlings, I ask you again, how does that give Flit any right to do the same? Two genocide wrongs make a right now? Unless you they show us that every last human at Mars signed off on a plan made by Ezalcant to wipe out earthkind (and even then.......), then Flit is still wrong and a bad guy.

Quote:
And Flit's actions and the actions of organizations like Titans and Blue Cosmos is hardly on the same level (excluding Plant because they can justify most of their actions except destroying earth), till now we have never seen Flit to use methods that are unethical, at best he did what has to be done in order to protect innocent people (even the colony thing during Age 2 arc), up till now the soldiers of Vagan are the trigger happy that like to fight in places where their are allot of civilians.
You do have a semi point here; Flit hasn't actually done anything yet. Which makes it entirely possible that Sunrise will retcon that rather dark statement and continue like it never happened.
They did the same with several elements of Code Geass (like Suzaku's connection to C.C. that was indicated in the end of season 1) and they abandoned their original plans for the end of R2.
They retconned and tossed out a bunch of things between Gundam 00 S1 and S2; they hastily closed and dismissed the Feldt/Lyle conflict that they'd been building through Feldt's feelings for Neil, they replaced it with the worse-than-FlitxEmily SetsunaxFeldt, and they tossed out SetsunaxMarina, which they'd been building up since before halfway through S1, only to bring it back a bit at the end of the movie.
So who knows, maybe they will just do away with that problematic genocide line of Flit's for arc 3. But in lieu of that.......
He's still wrong. There is nothing right about genocide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nivek von Beldo View Post
You're Right Altim and Soldier of Darkness. Shinji103, The veigan are not Zeon, heck even Zeon wasn't that cool.

Here is when AGE is a truly Gundam series... even if the bad guys are bad guys(as Zeon was Nazi Germany in Space), we still root for them somehow... Tomino Would have been Proud...XD
Aaaaand, what part of this makes genocide justified, how?
I see lots of Flit/Gundam AGE fanboy talking and no justification for genocide. Of course, since there iasn't any justfication for it.......

Quote:
In fact we've been pretty 'clean' in this war... we are the nukes? with not a little mission ala Seed and send several nuclear cruiser to Veigan Homeworld to crush them... that is a simple solution but never have happen... for now
a) I would only guess that you'd need more than just Flit's permission to use nukes (if they still exist; we haven't heard anything about nukes), maybe the prime minister (who was in league with the Vegan) so that wouldn't work. Until now.
b) Nobody in the EF had ludacrice genocidal desires until now.
c) Flit never made any genocidal desiring statements until now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
The same can be said of you guys.

Your are pretty much excusing all of the Vagan's actions due to a decision a government CENTURIES ago made.
monster has got this. You're rather blatantly trying to warp our point to make it sound like we're saying something that we're not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
(You can see how corrupted Flit has become. The First Generation was all light and placing all hopes on saviour!Flit. Now that he has been in the battle for too long, he's become tainted and all he can think about is wiping out the enemy. And he can't turn back now; those who had died and placed their hopes on him would have died for nothing.)
So the best way to make up for the people you got killed, is....to continue on to mass-murder?

I know you're not supporting Flit's genocide statement, but that's what that would end up as if Flit continues on. Just piling more bodies on the bodies he's already piled.



I'm not going to argue this anymore, because there's no point. Genocide is wrong. Period. End of story. I don't care what you say, and anybody else with their head screwed on straight knows this. There's nothing anybody can say or do to change thw wrong-ness of genocide.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:53   Link #77
Gundamx
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When Vegan do genocide it's OK but when Flit try genocide them as payback/self-defense he become the Devil?
GREAT-_-.... Just GREAT!!
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:57   Link #78
monster
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
I think he could have killed anyone there if he can.

But Flit is not the target. The Prime Minister being humiliated by the enemy has more blow to the EF's morale than killing someone that can be replaced.
You don't seem to understand.

Let me explain this again:

1. Zant has a giant mobile suit.
2. Flit is standing right next to the prime minister.
3. Zant could have killed them BOTH.

Did he do that?
No, he did not.
Did he even kill the prime minister?
No, not even that.

My verdict: Incompetence
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:00   Link #79
ReddyRedWolf
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Lets put it this way. To Flit negotiating with the Vegans is moot as their actions and ideology they are cult of personality fanatics out to genocide the rest of humanity. Essentially they are doing this for their leader Ezelcant. You know what that sounds like? Several names comes to mind. Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc... A lot of blood would be spilled for their utopia.

Given Zeheart heard Ezelcant and Zant saw the same vision as Zeheart I can venture to guess much like Decil taking over MS using the Mu Zell helmets of X-Rounders Ezelcant brainwashes his own people to subservience.

Thus it now makes sense some Vegan operators on Ambat were like zombies. Their brains were fried.

This war will only end if someone kills Ezelcant. Freeing Vegans from his influence.
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:01   Link #80
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
When Vegan do genocide it's OK but when Flit try genocide them as payback/self-defense he become the Devil?
GREAT-_-.... Just GREAT!!
Sorry, I just had to make one last

LOL

at how the only way the Flit fanboys can attack the anti-genocide-ers is by accusing us of defending the Vegans' actions when we absolutely are not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Lets put it this way. To Flit negotiating with the Vegans is moot as their actions and ideology they are cult of personality fanatics out to genocide the rest of humanity
Well that's not a problem. Since Flit doesn't want to negotiate with the Vegans, whether it's possible or not. As he specifically said in his own words clear as day. He said "I don't want to negotiate peace with them. I want to wipe them out."


Okay. Now I'm done.
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