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Old 2012-04-22, 08:47   Link #28541
GuestSpeaker
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I have to agree, I read the games after all arcs were out, but it just made solving the mystery more fun as I had less time to wait to see if I was correct. For me someof the best moments were seeing the confirmation of Shkannon theory (since at least game five I am pretty sure I'd been thinking they were the same person, and certainly before game six was through) and having Will confirm support my solution of the linked closed murders (or even better my confession). I do not think reading it later ruined it, maybe I didn't wrack my brains as long as others, but as long as you didn't cheat the answers or read all the mysteries straight and gave it some thought in your downtime it was still good. I would say the only aspect us latecomers miss is the fun of arguing over ways to solve the closed room mysteries before the answers were known, which would definitely have been great. Maybe in his next work if he throws in a mystery or two.
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Old 2012-04-22, 10:32   Link #28542
UsagiTenpura
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It seems pretty obvious that some people learned to think from the author's pov, and ends up having no problems with Shkanontrice theory.

Nothing really to say about it, but I'm glad to see it exists.
And I'm also glad to see that people who thinks the narrative is better then the logic puzzle exists.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'm not sure that this is what you're saying but...For the Witch Hunters, the Rokenjima Serial Murder Case is not a mystery novel but an actual event, therefore, nothing guarantees that it is solvable for them, like any incident occuring in real life.
I think a large part of the fans have some troubles with this.
If "not a fiction" then "not solvable". You end up as a crazy conspiracy theorist for playing around with the idea of the hidden truth of Rokkenjima.
If "solvable" then "fiction" and thus certainly not prime.


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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Well, no. And you're being fallacious. Renall and I have already raised much easier alternatives, like Shannon and Kanon have been removed from the board or Yes, they were dead, but I REVIVED THEM!
How about saying Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are a single entity in arc 1? You really don't like mysteries do you?
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Old 2012-04-22, 12:37   Link #28543
Xenon_gun
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I would like to chime in again on this one.
Aside from the motive, the only other problem I have with the Shkanontrice theory is that while it works taking a multitude of reds that were shot out and is beautifully foreshadowed in normal text, it also trips itself up in semantics and subjectivity.

Here are some things that hint at "Something's odd!":

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 1
In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon! Kanon did not commit suicide.
This is a difficult one for most theories.
Okay, let's say at the moment that Beatrice killed him. Beatrice is a witch, not a human, and she resides in his body...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 2
No one exists in this room except your group. 'Your group refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda and Shannon. When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room. Jessica is also included. Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case of this servant room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding.
Obviously, the dormant personality doesn't have to be accounted for at all in the red. Also, it doesn't count as 'hiding'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 2
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name!
Works perfectly with the personality rules in play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 3
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! There is no one hiding in the six rooms! The six people died instantly!
The presumed scenario is that Yasu moves to the chapel while the adults are checking the other rooms, and transforms into Kanon. At first glance, there is no problem at all in this red.

However, if there is no one hiding in the six rooms, and these six are dead... then who is in Kanon's body? Does this mean that Beatrice can 'hide' in Kanon's body and avoid getting called out? Or is she Hiding in Plain Sight (with a +20 modifier at that)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 3
There are no more than 18 people on this island. No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game.
This is where the logic breaks. Beatrice is right to ask, "What am I?"
Really, what is she? Should she be treated as a human? If so, then the other reds are erroneus. Is she a witch? In that case, this red doesn't work.

To sum up my viewpoint, Shkanontrice would work perfectly as a who- and howdunnit, were there no or less red text.
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Old 2012-04-22, 13:18   Link #28544
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon_gun View Post
However, if there is no one hiding in the six rooms, and these six are dead... then who is in Kanon's body? Does this mean that Beatrice can 'hide' in Kanon's body and avoid getting called out? Or is she Hiding in Plain Sight (with a +20 modifier at that)?
In EP6 Kanon also did not hide in Shanon/Beatrices Body, at the logic error, as he did not exist in the room. They litterary "disappear", without leaving a trace.



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Originally Posted by Xenon_gun View Post
This is where the logic breaks. Beatrice is right to ask, "What am I?"
Really, what is she? Should she be treated as a human? If so, then the other reds are erroneus. Is she a witch? In that case, this red doesn't work.
No! Even on the contrary. This is a hint! "She" will now kill him and it is 24:00 right now, The only human left alive was Battler and no other things beside humans can influence this game.
That means it is a THING, a WEAPON, just like the Winchesters. But since no human besides Battler was alive, and he very likely did not accidently trigger any strange things that may lead to an accident, it must be an indirect weapon, like a trap.

But since in every game it is triggered at 24:00 and it kills Battler every time, regardless of what his location is, we can conclude: IT'S A DELAYED-ACTION BOMB!
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:10   Link #28545
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
No! Even on the contrary. This is a hint! "She" will now kill him and it is 24:00 right now, The only human left alive was Battler and no other things beside humans can influence this game.
That means it is a THING, a WEAPON, just like the Winchesters. But since no human besides Battler was alive, and he very likely did not accidently trigger any strange things that may lead to an accident, it must be an indirect weapon, like a trap.

But since in every game it is triggered at 24:00 and it kills Battler every time, regardless of what his location is, we can conclude: IT'S A DELAYED-ACTION BOMB!
Just to clarify, the red I quoted here was related to Nanjo's murder in EP3. Related reds are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 3
No actions caused by Jessica's body had any relation to or influence on the murder of Nanjo! This also applies to Battler and Eva. Neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo! Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him...!! Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board! The one who killed Nanjo was definitely a human! A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes!
At this point, both Shannon and Kanon are specified as dead.
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:28   Link #28546
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Saying you don't care and will just wait to see it in the Answer Arcs seems like picking the easy solution to me (and poses the danger of understanding nothing becuase of the roundabout way the answers are given).
Regarding that I wonder if Ryukishi's attitude that mystery fans need to work out mysteries on their own otherwise they are not true fans of mystery as commented by Will, is really the right one to have as an author. In my experience one of the main enjoyment of the mystery genre is also to just enjoy watching the gears turn in the detective's mind.

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I have to agree, I read the games after all arcs were out, but it just made solving the mystery more fun as I had less time to wait to see if I was correct. For me someof the best moments were seeing the confirmation of Shkannon theory (since at least game five I am pretty sure I'd been thinking they were the same person, and certainly before game six was through) and having Will confirm support my solution of the linked closed murders (or even better my confession). I do not think reading it later ruined it, maybe I didn't wrack my brains as long as others, but as long as you didn't cheat the answers or read all the mysteries straight and gave it some thought in your downtime it was still good. I would say the only aspect us latecomers miss is the fun of arguing over ways to solve the closed room mysteries before the answers were known, which would definitely have been great. Maybe in his next work if he throws in a mystery or two.
Same here. I read them all at once as well. While I admit that a lot of my speculation turned out to be incorrect(had to revise my theories per game). I did enjoy the ride especially the climaxes were awesome.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post

No! Even on the contrary. This is a hint! "She" will now kill him and it is 24:00 right now, The only human left alive was Battler and no other things beside humans can influence this game.
That means it is a THING, a WEAPON, just like the Winchesters. But since no human besides Battler was alive, and he very likely did not accidently trigger any strange things that may lead to an accident, it must be an indirect weapon, like a trap.

But since in every game it is triggered at 24:00 and it kills Battler every time, regardless of what his location is, we can conclude: IT'S A DELAYED-ACTION BOMB!
Funnily enough the first time I interpreted that line to be that Battler was poisoned/drugged which explains the "magic" events, why Maria died via poisoning, as well that it is the answer to "who am I"(delusion created by drugs).

Although the 5th debunked that and 7th confirmed that it was a bomb.


However one thing I am not sure about. Is why Beatrice seemed so torn up at the question of "who aaaam I". Will's answer was that she is the promised death god that pulls down the curtain on witch's games. The explosives have connection to Beatrice as it creates the cat box which could allow Beatrice to exist. However I am not really sure if that is it.
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Old 2012-04-22, 14:58   Link #28547
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Regarding that I wonder if Ryukishi's attitude that mystery fans need to work out mysteries on their own otherwise they are not true fans of mystery as commented by Will, is really the right one to have as an author. In my experience one of the main enjoyment of the mystery genre is also to just enjoy watching the gears turn in the detective's mind.
I'm not that well ackquainted with mystery as a genre apart from a few classics, but to put in Umineko's terms, since the author went to all the trouble of making it solveable for you and put in hints and foreshadowings, it would be at least inconsiderate to them not even trying to tackle it.

Of course, it's always the literary worth of an author's work that determines its value, but when labeling their work as mystery and go to all the trouble of making the detective point out many trivial-seeming details and explain a series of clues that led him to whichever conclusion, they ought to have presented those for the reader in advance so as to make the novel anything more than a pretentious pile of baloney.

Quote:
However one thing I am not sure about. Is why Beatrice seemed so torn up at the question of "who aaaam I". Will's answer was that she is the promised death god that pulls down the curtain on witch's games. The explosives have connection to Beatrice as it creates the cat box which could allow Beatrice to exist. However I am not really sure if that is it.
That's pretty much it.
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Old 2012-04-22, 15:35   Link #28548
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'm not that well ackquainted with mystery as a genre apart from a few classics, but to put in Umineko's terms, since the author went to all the trouble of making it solveable for you and put in hints and foreshadowings, it would be at least inconsiderate to them not even trying to tackle it.
To be honest, I would not consider myself as having intimate knowledge about the mystery genre since the mystery genre is a small portion of the bulk that I read. Most what I read have mystery elements to them anyway.

Indeed that Umineko was solvable so you should put effort into thinking although Battler/Will does a bulk of the work for the reader. Although it rubs me the wrong me the wrong way about how Will said it.


Quote:
Of course, it's always the literary worth of an author's work that determines its value, but when labeling their work as mystery and go to all the trouble of making the detective point out many trivial-seeming details and explain a series of clues that led him to whichever conclusion, they ought to have presented those for the reader in advance so as to make the novel anything more than a pretentious pile of baloney.
Personally I do think that has less to do with integrity but with also re-reading experience. It makes the re-reading more entertaining when you can retrace the steps of the detective from the start. At least IMO about mystery.

Quote:
That's pretty much it.
Indeed but when rereading the dramatic scene during the climax of the 4th game all of the question arcs where Beatrice ask in anguish her final question and touched the core of the mystery of Umineko(who is Beatrice?).

That it refers to explosives having a connection with Beatrice while making sense for Will's explanation but it does not feel right for that scene.
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:07   Link #28549
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Quote:
1. Eh, I'll assume you've always had this problem 'cause I'm pretty certain EP1 isn't entirely solvable without Lambda's reds at the very end of Alliance
No, I'm not, because every other trick is something that Battler could solve with his extensive knowledge of mystery conventions; the Red shouldn't actually be necessary, but Beatrice muddles the issues with illsuions and attacking him emotionally.

Quote:
But that would surely violate Knox's rules about clues presented.
Those don't apply in real life. To a character who actually knows Kanon, they have no way to tell the difference. The Detective has no way to distinguish between "Kanon" and "Shannon pretending to be Kanon", so "Kanon is Dead" is a meaningless statement no matter how you slice it; it's always reversible. Personality Death is meaningless.

Quote:
Besides, in the end it doesn't realllyyy matter if game piece or meta battler couldn't solve it all that easily, because we could solve it (and some did) with the info provided. Also, the reason you can find the correct answer without the reds is that if you do have the correct answer, all mysteries fall into place with one trick (ie Shkannon). The red just helps cut down speculation.
I'm aware. My complaint isn't about how easy Shkannon was to solve; it was super obvious. My complaint is that Battler has no fair means of solving it on the Gameboard because he has a completely different relationship to the characters than any of us, and Beatrice is exploiting that to fuck with him for no reason in a way that ultimately keeps him from reaching the goal she wants him to reach. It's counter-intuitive to Beatrice's character and counter-productive to her motivations. Aside from this one thing, Beatrice never cheats like this. Battler could "understand her heart" and not realize that there was an exception to the rules of her playstyle.

Quote:
How about saying Shannon, Kanon and Beatrice are a single entity in arc 1? You really don't like mysteries do you?
Oh go fuck yourself, Usagi, this isn't what I mean and you know it. And if you don't know it, then don't bother because you have no understanding of what my problem is.

Either way, your statement is offensive and insulting.

UsagiTenpura hates Eddie Murphy, therefore they hate black people. See the problem with those sorts of sweeping generalizations?

Quote:
To sum up my viewpoint, Shkanontrice would work perfectly as a who- and howdunnit, were there no or less red text.
I'd actually agree with this. The whole problem, from my point of view, is that the Red Text does nothing with the Shkanontrice problem but make it harder to figure out for Battler, and it invalidates the Red for all other scenarios, problems, and puzzles by a ripple effect because of the consequences of semantic deception. If Shannon and Kanon can be dead by personality death and use the same word for it, then maybe Hideyoshi and Eva aren't dead either! Eva faked her death and became Evatrice! Hideyoshi is now Gonzaburo! Maria is Sakutarou!

[QUOTE]
However, if there is no one hiding in the six rooms, and these six are dead... then who is in Kanon's body? Does this mean that Beatrice can 'hide' in Kanon's body and avoid getting called out? Or is she Hiding in Plain Sight (with a +20 modifier at that)?

See that Magenta text, Xenon? That's Meta-World for "Objectively Awesome."


Quote:

However one thing I am not sure about. Is why Beatrice seemed so torn up at the question of "who aaaam I". Will's answer was that she is the promised death god that pulls down the curtain on witch's games. The explosives have connection to Beatrice as it creates the cat box which could allow Beatrice to exist. However I am not really sure if that is it.
As an aside, are you sure this is it? I remember his answer being something more like "It doesn't matter who you are. Everyone dies, and your identity doesn't matter to the present world."
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:07   Link #28550
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Although it rubs me the wrong me the wrong way about how Will said it.
I think Ruykishi is expressing his contempt for those who didn't even try to solve it and were bitchying about not getting an answer. There were plenty of people who gave up once the goat-heads and Kanon's blade appeared for example.


Quote:
Personally I do think that has less to do with integrity but with also re-reading experience. It makes the re-reading more entertaining when you can retrace the steps of the detective from the start. At least IMO about mystery.
Yeah, I'd have to agree to that. Even though I did get the correct solution, my second reading of Umineko was almost as enjoyable as the first one. There were always many foreshadowings or hints that I had missed even in early parts of EP1.


Quote:
Indeed but when rereading the dramatic scene during the climax of the 4th game all of the question arcs where Beatrice ask in anguish her final question and touched the core of the mystery of Umineko(who is Beatrice?).

That it refers to explosives having a connection with Beatrice while making sense for Will's explanation but it does not feel right for that scene.
That would have to be because Beatrice isn't simply asking about the bomb in that scene, she's making a cry out to Battler to try to understand her, I think. And it might also be viewed as a slight hint towards Yasu. But of course, it's mainly about the bomb.
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:36   Link #28551
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LOL, problem solved! And we had it next to us all the time!

"The Heart of Beatrice" is the Bomb!


I mean Beatrice said "I will expose my heart now", then the "ghost Beatrice" otherwise known as Bomb!Beatrice appeared... and that ghost, or at least what it represents, IS "The Heart".

It was so obivious that i never considered it... so maybe to "understand everything", we must research more about the bomb...
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Old 2012-04-22, 16:41   Link #28552
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I'm aware. My complaint isn't about how easy Shkannon was to solve; it was super obvious. My complaint is that Battler has no fair means of solving it on the Gameboard because he has a completely different relationship to the characters than any of us, and Beatrice is exploiting that to fuck with him for no reason in a way that ultimately keeps him from reaching the goal she wants him to reach.
What exactly do you mean by "on the Gameboard" here? Because if you mean Piece-Battler, then a) he never gets any red truth, so it's just a matter of disguises that he should be able to figure it out by investigating competently, and b) starting with EP3, the incident is already over in the real world and the games are designed for Meta-Battler to solve, so who cares if they're solvable by Piece-Battler or not?

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
If Shannon and Kanon can be dead by personality death and use the same word for it, then maybe Hideyoshi and Eva aren't dead either! Eva faked her death and became Evatrice! Hideyoshi is now Gonzaburo! Maria is Sakutarou!
I guess you could theorize those things if you totally ignored the requirement for hints. Well, Evatrice might be reasonable in a game where she appeared.

It might be fun to do a forgery where Sakutarou possesses Maria's corpse to avenge her death in the fantasy plot.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
As an aside, are you sure this is it? I remember his answer being something more like "It doesn't matter who you are. Everyone dies, and your identity doesn't matter to the present world."
"Illusions to illusions. The promised reaper lowers the curtain on the tale, regardless of the witch's will."
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Old 2012-04-22, 17:38   Link #28553
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What exactly do you mean by "on the Gameboard" here? Because if you mean Piece-Battler, then a) he never gets any red truth, so it's just a matter of disguises that he should be able to figure it out by investigating competently, and b) starting with EP3, the incident is already over in the real world and the games are designed for Meta-Battler to solve, so who cares if they're solvable by Piece-Battler or not?
Battler, in any iteration, because he has a personal relationship with everyone who exists on the Gameboard, except Erika.
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Old 2012-04-23, 02:03   Link #28554
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Personality Death is meaningless.
Maybe to you and me, but not to Beatrice. (And that's precisely the point)
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
It seems pretty obvious that some people learned to think from the author's pov, and ends up having no problems with Shkanontrice theory.
I wouldn't go as far as to say I have no problems with it. In terms of the love story it's cute, and in terms of being commentary on differing world views it's kind of interesting. But strictly in terms of a logic game it's crap. It's really just a matter of our expectations.
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Old 2012-04-23, 03:22   Link #28555
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Maybe to you and me, but not to Beatrice. (And that's precisely the point)
Yes, but Beatrice wants Battler to understand that, so it's up to her to give him the tools to do so and understand his handicaps. That's my problem.
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Old 2012-04-23, 06:49   Link #28556
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yes, but Beatrice wants Battler to understand that, so it's up to her to give him the tools to do so and understand his handicaps. That's my problem.
Again, though, the story itself seems to go out of it's way to make a point that she did a fairly crappy job of that, but she still wanted him to figure it out ANYWAYS. I'd say her request IS presented as rather unreasonable, thus why it's a "miracle" she was hoping for and all that.
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Old 2012-04-23, 07:10   Link #28557
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
LOL, problem solved! And we had it next to us all the time!

"The Heart of Beatrice" is the Bomb!


I mean Beatrice said "I will expose my heart now", then the "ghost Beatrice" otherwise known as Bomb!Beatrice appeared... and that ghost, or at least what it represents, IS "The Heart".

It was so obivious that i never considered it... so maybe to "understand everything", we must research more about the bomb...
Maybe I'm just taking this the wrong way, but it kinda feels like you're making fun of what I said. If you disagree you can just say so.

Yeah, Beatrice's heart isn't the bomb itself, but it's one of the core elements of her motive. I mean, her crazy suicidal bet wouldn't be possible without the existence of the bomb, it's not like the bomb is yet another personality or anything. That ghost Beatrice is just the illusion that the witch side is allowed to display as an explanation of the presented result.
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Old 2012-04-23, 07:55   Link #28558
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Illusions to illusions. The promised reaper lowers the curtain on the tale, regardless of the witch's will
I'd sure like to see the indepth analysis on this one, regardless of the witch's will implies Beatrice at least couldn't stop the bomb in her games, and the promised reaper could be death, or....


Also an off-topic. You know how some people state the crazy stuff at the end of Game 2 is all because Battler is drunk? I always had another theory.

As we know there are two types of magic, that which is observed (a trick) and that which is not (flat out lie). I am pretty sure most of that magic stuff happened after midnight, so maybe, there just weren't any observers by then?
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Old 2012-04-23, 08:33   Link #28559
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Maybe I'm just taking this the wrong way, but it kinda feels like you're making fun of what I said. If you disagree you can just say so.

Yeah, Beatrice's heart isn't the bomb itself, but it's one of the core elements of her motive. I mean, her crazy suicidal bet wouldn't be possible without the existence of the bomb, it's not like the bomb is yet another personality or anything. That ghost Beatrice is just the illusion that the witch side is allowed to display as an explanation of the presented result.
No. I just wanted to say that this scene presented it as fact that Bomb=heart. It's just there, be it ridiculous or not. Beatrice said she will expose her heart, then her "heart" came out, which claimed to kill Battler, but the "heart" that is talking to Battler represents the bomb. That's a fact. It sounds absolutely ridiculous (that's why I presented it in a sarcastic way), but the evidence is there, whether we like it or not.
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Old 2012-04-23, 08:51   Link #28560
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
More than that, I don't think we should go back to the light bulb example at all. It's almost as nonsensical as as Renall's "locked = made of wood" example is.

If I were to say "Fred and Natsuhi are dead" and later it was suddenly revealed that, unconnected to anything, "Fred" actually referred to a light bulb, I think anybody would be quite reasonable in getting mad at me. However, that isn't even remotely comparable to a situation where I describe a person-like being as dead and then spend the entire rest of my story explaining the philosophy behind it.
Oh come now.

You're trying to cast my examples as absurd - which of course they were intended to be - to make it look like the dialed-back example that actually happened is reasonable. That isn't how it works. The examples illustrate the semantic absurdity of defining something that doesn't follow normal rules. The problem is not merely in this definitional trickery, but also in equivocating them with the standard definition without trying to distinguish the two in any way.

You understand that personality death is itself the hint that permits everyone to not be dead, right? I don't actually need any evidence that Hideyoshi has a magic form or an alternate personality (although, it's worth noting, there are multiple characters who could be spun to have one); that death != death is the "hint."

To suggest that "the entire rest of my story [explains] the philosophy behind it" is overly generous at best. If the "philosophy" is "by living in denial and refusing to be clear about things, I can make anything true," I guess you're right. But that's just my very point.

Nevermind that, and this is kind of an important thing, many of these so-called rule revelations do not come up in a format that - as far as we know - Battler was able to observe. I mean, a hell of a lot of information comes from places like the ep2 prologue flashback and Ange's review of Maria's diary in Alliance. Are we to just assume Battler saw these things (and he has to see all of them)? I have absolutely no way of knowing, as far as my recollection goes, whether he did or not. If he didn't, he doesn't have that information. So what if we did? Because it helps us figure out Shkanon? People had figured that shit out by ep2. It was a theory everyone was aware of, and was only doubted because he cheated to intentionally stir up the issue.

Like others have said, without the red it's actually easier for us and particularly for Battler. Who is the one who was meant to solve things. That proves the red was intentionally and maliciously deceptive on an authorial level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
It seems pretty obvious that some people learned to think from the author's pov, and ends up having no problems with Shkanontrice theory.
There you go again with your elitism.

"Oh, people have problems with the author cheating? They just don't get it."

I understand what Ryukishi wanted to do. It was a stupid, amateurish move by an amateurish writer who thought he could pull it off, then panicked and disguised it when his big trick was immediately spotted by seasoned readers. The fact that he's claimed that he is an amateur doesn't excuse him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenon_gun View Post
At this point, both Shannon and Kanon are specified as dead.
I believe the idea here is that Shkanon had moved out of the rooms by the time Meta-Beatrice had spoken that red and thus didn't count as being in the rooms at all. Sometime between the discovery of the bodies and the proclamation of deaths, Beatrice had taken over the body and left the room, and wasn't "hiding" in it. The room proclamation essentially doesn't account for the possibility that any of the bodies are actually still in them, only the bodies of the "victims."

I don't like it, but that may have been Ryukishi's intention with that one. Of course, one can apply the very same rule to the others, since they're not provably dead. Only "victims" are in the rooms. Nevermind that Shannon and Kanon are "victims," so the red should apply to them and force them to be in the rooms. I'm pretty sure Ryukishi will with a straight face tell you that Shannon/Kanon were murdered but weren't victims... or that "not existing" supersedes "existing as a victim." Or that Beatrice pretending to be Kanon's corpse is somehow different from hiding, because words mean whatever Ryukishi wants them to mean as long as they're convenient for him.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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