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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 74 55.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 22.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-23, 09:57   Link #221
Sheba
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You know, in the light of the recent events, I can't help but think that the time period when the 4th Grail War takes place is more than appropriate for Kiritsugu who is the closest thing in Type-Moonverse, or even in the current batch of anime, to a 1990s anti-hero.
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:18   Link #222
AnimeFan188
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Whether it's Fate/Stay-Night, Carnival Phantasm, or Fate/Zero. One thing remains
constant:

It sux to be Lancer.

I wonder why they decided to make the Lancers the whipping boys of the Fate-verse?
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:22   Link #223
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
Whether it's Fate/Stay-Night, Carnival Phantasm, or Fate/Zero. One thing remains
constant:

It sux to be Lancer.

I wonder why they decided to make the Lancers the whipping boys of the Fate-verse?
Luck of the Irish
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:28   Link #224
DragoZERO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
You know, in the light of the recent events, I can't help but think that the time period when the 4th Grail War takes place is more than appropriate for Kiritsugu who is the closest thing in Type-Moonverse, or even in the current batch of anime, to a 1990s anti-hero.
It's the Nasuverse.
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:59   Link #225
Xagzan
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Whew, that was one heavy and deep episode. Love it.

Yeah, I can see how this anime is way more well put-together than the FSN anime.
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Old 2012-04-23, 14:04   Link #226
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Whew, that was one heavy and deep episode. Love it.

Yeah, I can see how this anime is way more well put-together than the FSN anime.
The reason the FSN anime wasn't well put together was because DEEN did a bad job. The visual novel is much better and thought provoking.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-04-23 at 16:01.
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Old 2012-04-23, 14:11   Link #227
Xagzan
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I believe you, that's why I made sure to specifically say the anime was better put together. I'm sure the FSN VN story was just as good.
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Old 2012-04-23, 14:21   Link #228
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Moekou View Post
The difference is that being killed isn't always a negative thing in some's eyes-especially the eyes of people with ancient values that were deemed heroes. Lancer would have felt great joy to be slain by Saber and vice versa had they been able to conclude with an honorable duel. The assumption that everyone should prioritize the Grail is folly. Just two Grail wars earlier, an emphasis on honorable conduct was the norm for many societies. Enemies wept for the deaths of great enemy generals that killed many of their friends. It was only in the last century that the world of war grew much more cynical.
Quote:
On the latter date, Imperial Field Marshal Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim, and Johann Tserclaes, Count of Tilly, attacked Magdeburg for its rich stores of goods. When the city was almost lost, the garrison mined various places and set others on fire. After the city fell, the Imperial soldiers went out of control and started to massacre the inhabitants and set fire to the city. Of the 30,000 citizens, only 5,000 survived. For fourteen days, charred bodies were carried to the Elbe River to be dumped to prevent disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg
only the last century?

Quote:
With the departure of the Royal Family, Naples descended into anarchy and news reached Palermo in January that the French had entered the city under General Championnet and proclaimed the Parthenopaean Republic.[144] Nelson was promoted to Rear Admiral of the Red on 14 February 1799,[145] and was occupied for several months in blockading Naples, while a popular counter-revolutionary force under Cardinal Ruffo known as the Sanfedisti marched to retake the city. In late June Ruffo's army entered Naples, forcing the French and their supporters to withdraw to the city's fortifications as rioting and looting broke out amongst the ill-disciplined Neapolitan troops.[146] Dismayed by the bloodshed, Ruffo agreed to a general amnesty with the Jacobin forces that allowed them safe conduct to France. Nelson, now aboard the Foudroyant, was outraged, and backed by King Ferdinand he insisted that the rebels must surrender unconditionally.[147] He took those who had surrendered under the amnesty under armed guard, including the former Admiral Francesco Caracciolo, who had commanded the Neapolitan navy under King Ferdinand but had changed sides during the brief Jacobin rule.[148] Nelson ordered his trial by court-martial and refused Caracciolo's request that it be held by British officers, nor was Caracciolo allowed to summon witnesses in his defence. Caracciolo was tried by royalist Neapolitan officers and sentenced to death. He asked to be shot rather than hanged, but Nelson, following the wishes of Queen Maria Carolina (a close friend of his mistress, Lady Hamilton) also refused this request and even ignored the court's request to allow 24 hours for Caracciolo to prepare himself. Caracciolo was hanged aboard the Neapolitan frigate Minerva at 5 o'clock the same afternoon.[149] Nelson kept the Jacobins imprisoned and approved of a wave of further executions, refusing to intervene despite pleas for clemency from the Hamiltons and the Queen of Naples.[150] When transports were finally allowed to carry the Jacobins to France, less than a third were still alive.[151] On 13 August 1799, King Ferdinand gave Nelson the newly created Dukedom of Bronté in the Kingdom of Sicily, in perpetual property, enclosing the Maniace Castle, the accompanying Abbey, and the land and the city of Bronte, this as a reward for his support of the monarchy.[152]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Nelson,_1st_Viscount_Nelson


honorable conduct?
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Old 2012-04-23, 14:47   Link #229
Moekou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
only the last century?

honorable conduct?
[/SIZE]
I'm obviously not saying massacres didn't happen before. Attrocities have been happening since the stone age, and quite often at that. What I mean is that honor and chivalry were not deemed stupid ideas until more recently. In the Civil War, despite how bloody it was, it was very common for generals to publicly shed tears for opponents. In fact, in the case of Joseph Johnson, he even died because he refused to wear more in bone-chilling cold despite his poor health at his enemy rival's funeral, as he deemed it disrespectful to a man responsible for killing a lot of his friends and underlings. As Kiritsugu said, soldier were often still lead by the illusion of glory. Even if atrocities were happening, the population still believed in heroism. It was the trench warfare of WWI that really changed the way people thought about war.
But even then, when the Red Baron, famous for killing nearly a hundred Allies, was shot down, the Allies gave him a burial in the highest honor, and some even reportedly wept for the loss of such a great "hero" despite him being on the other side.

But yes, this is not going to happen today. Just imagine some Taliban fighter being honored for being skilled! For warfare today it is just us vs the enemy. I wonder if that's for better or for worse?
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Old 2012-04-23, 15:04   Link #230
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Moekou View Post
I'm obviously not saying massacres didn't happen before. Attrocities have been happening since the stone age, and quite often at that. What I mean is that honor and chivalry were not deemed stupid ideas until more recently. In the Civil War, despite how bloody it was, it was very common for generals to publicly shed tears for opponents. In fact, in the case of Joseph Johnson, he even died because he refused to wear more in bone-chilling cold despite his poor health at his enemy rival's funeral, as he deemed it disrespectful to a man responsible for killing a lot of his friends and underlings. As Kiritsugu said, soldier were often still lead by the illusion of glory. Even if atrocities were happening, the population still believed in heroism. It was the trench warfare of WWI that really changed the way people thought about war.
But even then, when the Red Baron, famous for killing nearly a hundred Allies, was shot down, the Allies gave him a burial in the highest honor, and some even reportedly wept for the loss of such a great "hero" despite him being on the other side.

But yes, this is not going to happen today. Just imagine some Taliban fighter being honored for being skilled! For warfare today it is just us vs the enemy. I wonder if that's for better or for worse?
the American civil war was a anomaly as almost every general on both side went to west point around the same time and serve together in the Mexican war. You are talking about people who were best man in each others wedding before the war.

if you look at continental Europe and do some research on the 30 yr war and Napoleonic war, you would realize while Honor and chilvary were on people's lip. It was only lip service, armies in Europe and elsewhere routinely did what had to win regardless of any notion of Honor or fair play.
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Old 2012-04-23, 15:09   Link #231
ChronoReverse
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Xellos, you're missing the point by a mile here.
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Old 2012-04-23, 15:50   Link #232
Ithekro
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World War II was probably the last time there was any honor shown. It wasn't common and usually outside of combat. There was respect for ones enemies. "An Officer and a Gentleman" I think is the term. It shown mostly in the Navy and Air Forces of the various combatants of the time. Especially in the air. There is still a lot of respect on the Allied side for several high ranking (and high scoring) Luftwaffe pilots and some for their Japanese Naval Air Arm allies. Though generally when it comes to the Japanese officers, it is their Naval Officers that get respect from the Allies. Then there is Rommel who is respected still.

There were Allied soldiers who were respected by the Axis officers. Though it seems the Armies of all involved had their share of bastards who where the ones that got things done.

Honor and glory are pretty much gone and only left for naval battles and dogfighting. Both of which are pretty much gone now. It is rare to have a naval action anymore and most air combat is done with missiles so no need for a dogfight, nor are there many instances with huge kill numbers for fighter pilots so Aces and the like are also something uncommon. Thus the "Knights of the Sky" is something of the past as well.

In World War One there were instances of ceasefires for holidays were soldiers from both sides might sit and drink together. Or instances where wounded from one side would be deliver them back to their enemy's side of the trenches.


Today there is no such respect. But then there hasn't been a large scale war between equals in a long time. It is almost always one large power verses a smaller power with a lot of guerilla and/or terrorist tactics. Very rare for to have a stand up army verse army fight, much less a naval action or more than a few air duels.
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Old 2012-04-23, 15:55   Link #233
ChronoReverse
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Ugh, Xellos wasn't wrong you know. Honor is rarely anything more than lip-service in war. For every tale you have of "honor on the battlefield" you have a hundred of atrocities.

The point is that the notion of honor has blinded many throughout the years but more recently people are far less fooled by it.
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Old 2012-04-23, 16:06   Link #234
Vicious108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I hope the scene between Reisei and Kayneth is extended when the BD set comes out. I would like to see if Reisei does mention that Waver and Kiritsugu collected their extra Command Seals already. Perhaps we'll find out something about that in the coming episodes too.
One thing I can't agree with is that Kayneth though it would be a good idea to kill the supervisor after the Seals had been awarded to others already. He has only one Seal. It doesn't matter if his opponents have 4 or 40, he's never overcoming that disadvantage. Had he left the supervisor alive, perhaps there might be future opportunities to win more Seals. Killing the supervisor now shuts that door.
Yeah, it's already been established that it was hardly a particularly well thought out move on Kayneth's part, but given his actions, facial expressions and mannerisms during this final appearance, I think it's safe to say that it wasn't just his body that had deteriorated.

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Originally Posted by Crontica View Post
I just hope Waver makes it out of this bloodbath alive or more than that if he ever survives, to specialize in avoiding stumbling onto such catastrophes to begin with.
But he doesn't want to do that. He'd rather die in one of these catastrophes trying to make a name for himself than live on safely but without being acknowledged. Like Rider said, he is a fool. Albeit one of the lovable kind.
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Old 2012-04-23, 17:42   Link #235
erneiz_hyde
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I heard in passing once before that tanks got invented was because the British still tried to uphold chivalry even in war. At the age of gunpowder such thing is outdated, but with taaaanks they can still pose as being that formidable knight of chivalry even in gunpowder age. The British were such gentlemen weren't they?
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Old 2012-04-23, 23:10   Link #236
Leo_Otaku
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Noooo Lancer You were so awesome too! Poor guy had to have such shitty masters.

Ugh I lost all respect for Kiritsugu ...I really could care less about his back story too...
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Old 2012-04-24, 02:43   Link #237
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku View Post
Noooo Lancer You were so awesome too! Poor guy had to have such shitty masters.

Ugh I lost all respect for Kiritsugu ...I really could care less about his back story too...
It just sucks to be Lancer. I swear everyone summoned during these wars should confirm their class and if it's Lancer just refuse. Better than getting screwed over because the universe hates Lancers.
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Old 2012-04-24, 03:11   Link #238
Silvance
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That was just... heartbreaking seeing Lancer's final moments. He even thought Saber voluntarily took part in the entire scheme. So long, my favorite servant, you'll be missed for sure. T-T
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Old 2012-04-24, 08:58   Link #239
Xagzan
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Ultimately though, I loved how at first there's this great battle between two knights who have similar thoughts on chivalry. You see them start to fight and you think it's going to be this honorable, idealized duel, almost in the vein of those spirits' own heroic tales.

And then Kiritsugu comes and subverts the hell out it. Awesome contrast.

I also liked the Mercutio vibes I got from Lancer at his death, the way he met his end because of another's battle, and the curses he called upon all of them, even Saber, kind of a "plague on all your grail wishes!" or something like that
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Old 2012-04-24, 13:21   Link #240
Kokukirin
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Lancer's legendary 'E' luck is not just for show.
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