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Old 2012-04-23, 10:05   Link #28561
GuestSpeaker
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Firstly, impressive to whomever got that twist by ep 2, all I can say is I noticed was that they had the same chin, and then made a joke about me being so white and thinking all Asian people look the same.

Secondly, Renall, I have to ask, why are you so angry at Ryu? I understand if from your point of view you thought him stupid and just brushed him off, but why so much anger?
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Old 2012-04-23, 11:36   Link #28562
Renall
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Firstly, impressive to whomever got that twist by ep 2, all I can say is I noticed was that they had the same chin, and then made a joke about me being so white and thinking all Asian people look the same.

Secondly, Renall, I have to ask, why are you so angry at Ryu? I understand if from your point of view you thought him stupid and just brushed him off, but why so much anger?
I'm not angry. Why do people assume calling out stupid things on the internet means the person doing it is angry? I am a bit tired by this point, but I could ask the same fatigue-related question of anybody else who happens to be here.

Regarding Shkanon by ep2: It isn't hard. They're never seen together in ep1/2 and Kanon's body disappears. It was practically the first thing some people guessed, especially since some of them were familiar with Higurashi where a similar thing sorta happens. Certainly you couldn't perhaps guess that's what the whole thing was about, but it was possible to guess Shannon/Kanon as the killer(s) and guess they were one person, and as of ep2 no reds were contradicted by it in general.
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Old 2012-04-23, 11:49   Link #28563
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Oh come now.

You're trying to cast my examples as absurd - which of course they were intended to be - to make it look like the dialed-back example that actually happened is reasonable. That isn't how it works. The examples illustrate the semantic absurdity of defining something that doesn't follow normal rules. The problem is not merely in this definitional trickery, but also in equivocating them with the standard definition without trying to distinguish the two in any way.

You understand that personality death is itself the hint that permits everyone to not be dead, right? I don't actually need any evidence that Hideyoshi has a magic form or an alternate personality (although, it's worth noting, there are multiple characters who could be spun to have one); that death != death is the "hint."
Furniture are represented as separate characters who are properly introduced as such in the narrative. Saying someone could possibly have another personality isn't a license to invent Furniture X for your theory any more than saying "an extra person could have snuck onto the island" is a license to solve everything with Purupurupikoman.

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Nevermind that, and this is kind of an important thing, many of these so-called rule revelations do not come up in a format that - as far as we know - Battler was able to observe. I mean, a hell of a lot of information comes from places like the ep2 prologue flashback and Ange's review of Maria's diary in Alliance. Are we to just assume Battler saw these things (and he has to see all of them)? I have absolutely no way of knowing, as far as my recollection goes, whether he did or not. If he didn't, he doesn't have that information. So what if we did? Because it helps us figure out Shkanon? People had figured that shit out by ep2. It was a theory everyone was aware of, and was only doubted because he cheated to intentionally stir up the issue.
We don't have to assume anything. As I recall, Battler was told everything that happened in the fantasy narrative of EP2 by Beatrice at the end of the game, and he received an infodump of everything Ange did when she got hamburgered. So he has the exact same information as us.
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Old 2012-04-23, 11:56   Link #28564
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Battler knew that the first stories are message bottles (we could see that in "EP5???")

So i think he also saw everything about Shanon's & Kanon's backstory.
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Old 2012-04-23, 12:30   Link #28565
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Furniture are represented as separate characters who are properly introduced as such in the narrative. Saying someone could possibly have another personality isn't a license to invent Furniture X for your theory any more than saying "an extra person could have snuck onto the island" is a license to solve everything with Purupurupikoman.
Except the end result is exactly the same, and you're ignoring the people who actually could (including at least one person explicitly introduced as furniture alongside Shannon and Kanon).

That's the point. It doesn't work as pat as you seem to think it does. It may not be an apocalyptic scenario in this particular case, but it erodes any value that anything else has and basically causes the story to collapse upon its own silly example of the 19th person. In effect, the red creates exactly that scenario that you're trying to suggest I'm advocating (which I'm not, you really need to stop doing that). It's just somehow "different" to people because it's a magical (but not "magical") bodysnatching fairy that has as its internal mechanism whatever is most convenient for the author at a given time. It's actually less plausible than a witch or 19th person, and equally fanciful. Does that not bother you?

More than that, do you honestly believe that Ryukishi plotted out the exact manner in which all of that switching works in the narrative and forced himself to obey specific and comprehensible rules for who can do what and when? I tried to imagine such a ruleset after the fact, and what I came up with is still stupid and overly permissive to the point that I could get away with basically anything if I were him. I am all but certain that he just dreamed up the idea half-cocked, assumed he could do whatever he wanted as long as he could come up with some ways to twist red, and filled in (poorly) the blanks later with additional structure in Chiru to attempt to justify by recton.

No human being behaves like this. No fictional set of personalities works so conveniently. No author dreams this up as a first-and-best concept. There is no way this was his plan all along. It's patently indefensible, even for someone with your intellect.
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:01   Link #28566
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Again, though, the story itself seems to go out of it's way to make a point that she did a fairly crappy job of that, but she still wanted him to figure it out ANYWAYS. I'd say her request IS presented as rather unreasonable, thus why it's a "miracle" she was hoping for and all that.
Ryukishi doesn't seem to have intended that, though. Everything in the narrative indicates that he should've figured it out. So I'm not entirely willing to give Ryukishi the benefit of the doubt on that.

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It's actually less plausible than a witch or 19th person, and equally fanciful. Does that not bother you?
Here's another problem. If Yasu has anything like MPD, which doesn't work that way in real life, then he's in violation of a Knox rule, which Beato's board allegedly follows. If Yasu doesn't have any MPD, then no one can even be dying personality death. It's just one girl putting on different costumes. It's not even symbolically true. The concept of death is absolutely meaningless because then anyone can be dead by PRETENDING to be dead, because hey, Yasu does it.

All of these corpses are guaranteed to be dead. But they're pretending because you can fake death.
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Old 2012-04-23, 14:28   Link #28567
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No. I just wanted to say that this scene presented it as fact that Bomb=heart. It's just there, be it ridiculous or not. Beatrice said she will expose her heart, then her "heart" came out, which claimed to kill Battler, but the "heart" that is talking to Battler represents the bomb. That's a fact. It sounds absolutely ridiculous (that's why I presented it in a sarcastic way), but the evidence is there, whether we like it or not.
Sorry, my bad then.
Though the particular scene wanted to hint towards the bomb, I think 'Beatrice's heart is the bomb' is a way too literal translation.

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More than that, do you honestly believe that Ryukishi plotted out the exact manner in which all of that switching works in the narrative and forced himself to obey specific and comprehensible rules for who can do what and when? I tried to imagine such a ruleset after the fact, and what I came up with is still stupid and overly permissive to the point that I could get away with basically anything if I were him. I am all but certain that he just dreamed up the idea half-cocked, assumed he could do whatever he wanted as long as he could come up with some ways to twist red, and filled in (poorly) the blanks later with additional structure in Chiru to attempt to justify by recton.

No human being behaves like this. No fictional set of personalities works so conveniently. No author dreams this up as a first-and-best concept. There is no way this was his plan all along. It's patently indefensible, even for someone with your intellect.
Though I understand you may find it stupid, or way too far-fetched and impossible even for a fictional work, I cannot agree that Ryukishi hadn't planned this all along. Okay, the plot of each arc was obviously cooked up on the spot, and he has said himself that he tweaked the level of difficulty according to the readers' response to each episode. However, I can't think he just went on and created such a masive novel with a half-cooked idea, I mean, there were hints about Battler's promise and also many core elements of Beatrice's motive since EP1.
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Old 2012-04-23, 16:38   Link #28568
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I'd sure like to see the indepth analysis on this one, regardless of the witch's will implies Beatrice at least couldn't stop the bomb in her games, and the promised reaper could be death, or....


Also an off-topic. You know how some people state the crazy stuff at the end of Game 2 is all because Battler is drunk? I always had another theory.

As we know there are two types of magic, that which is observed (a trick) and that which is not (flat out lie). I am pretty sure most of that magic stuff happened after midnight, so maybe, there just weren't any observers by then?
The observer is Battler who's supposed to have a reliable point of view.
So the options are two:

- his point of view was altered by sleep/alchool and we're basically called to figure out even though he was the detective and was supposed to have a reliable point of view... well, he tossed it out of the window

- Battler was already dead and had moved on the meta plane as it happened in Ep 4 when, after midnight, he sees Beatrice and engages with her a meta battle. However Genji called Battler at 11:30 so either Genji took a long turn to carry him to see Kinzo and Beato so as to waste 30 minutes or Battler should have reached that room before the bomb exploded. Though it's real the text said Battler began to drink at 11:30 so... hum... Genji might have reached him at 11:55 so they'll never reached Kinzo's room. However the banquet chapter says that at 11:59PM Battler was alive and speaking with Beato while Kinzo was present so, unless the bomb exploded earlier, Battler shouldn't have been killed by the bomb.

- Battler had gave up on fighting surrendering and de-fact ending the game with his loss though even we're lead to assume that scene happened on the gameboard it's actually not fantasy but purely Meta and the one getting explanations is MetaBattler (though he likely believes to be pieceBattler...)... which would fit with how MetaBattler's scenes afterward seem to fit with the ones of this Battler.

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No. I just wanted to say that this scene presented it as fact that Bomb=heart. It's just there, be it ridiculous or not. Beatrice said she will expose her heart, then her "heart" came out, which claimed to kill Battler, but the "heart" that is talking to Battler represents the bomb. That's a fact. It sounds absolutely ridiculous (that's why I presented it in a sarcastic way), but the evidence is there, whether we like it or not.
Well, the bomb is the core of Beato's endless magic.
Without it the police could have done more accurate investigations and possibly guess the culprit... if there was one or more. Or people could have survived. The bomb generated the catbox that allows Beato to use her endless magic to spin tons of tales.

Though this isn't a mystery for the Witch hunters who know the island went Kaboom it's a mystery for us (I wonder if the same could be said for Battler as he could have received that particular info from Ange's memories and maybe for him the question had a completely different meaning...)
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Old 2012-04-23, 16:44   Link #28569
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That would have to be because Beatrice isn't simply asking about the bomb in that scene, she's making a cry out to Battler to try to understand her, I think. And it might also be viewed as a slight hint towards Yasu. But of course, it's mainly about the bomb.
Although it could imply that the discovery of the explosives is what originally created the seed of the whole incident. Although I do wonder if it had any connection to EP 6 when "Mother" spoke to Chick Beatrice. She told Beatrice that the time, that she had the right to hate everything and that the time that she will create/revive everything will come.

Interesting enough during that moment, "mother" also mentioned that people will not see Beatrice. It makes me wonder if Shannon/Kanon were only considered to be people that could die because everyone acknowledged them as such.



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Here's another problem. If Yasu has anything like MPD, which doesn't work that way in real life, then he's in violation of a Knox rule, which Beato's board allegedly follows. If Yasu doesn't have any MPD, then no one can even be dying personality death. It's just one girl putting on different costumes. It's not even symbolically true. The concept of death is absolutely meaningless because then anyone can be dead by PRETENDING to be dead, because hey, Yasu does it.

All of these corpses are guaranteed to be dead. But they're pretending because you can fake death.
Funnily enough isn't that a Devil's Proof? Unless you can prove and show every case of every mentally ill person with identity issues, you cannot really disprove that Yasu's identity issues do not exist in the real world.

To be honest, I do doubt that Ryukishi is really that knowledgeable about physiology.

About the red, I think that to lies in the definition of dead. In the end what we consider dead is when the person bodies function stop or mind ceases to exist. Death is when life ends. Unless you want to argue that separate identities count as living, I do think you would have a hard time accepting that they can die. although if you build wholes lives, relationships etc around these identities I could see why you would consider them to equal to other lives.

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I'd sure like to see the indepth analysis on this one, regardless of the witch's will implies Beatrice at least couldn't stop the bomb in her games, and the promised reaper could be death, or....
Me too. I do think that line is rather interesting. It does imply that Beatrice could not stop it. Although the explosives might be the risk that Maria talked about for Beatrice to complete her magic.

To be honest, if you think about the insane amount of risks that "Beatrice" takes in each game:

-committing murders is such complicated manner
-the murders will cease if someone solves the epitaph
-someone could kill Beatrice in revenge
-the bomb that will kill everyone assuming that she does not turn it off

It leads to two conclusions. Either Beatrice wanted a miracle or just to die, which both is supported in the meta games. She wanted Battler to understand her heart and crush it.

Quote:
Also an off-topic. You know how some people state the crazy stuff at the end of Game 2 is all because Battler is drunk? I always had another theory.

As we know there are two types of magic, that which is observed (a trick) and that which is not (flat out lie). I am pretty sure most of that magic stuff happened after midnight, so maybe, there just weren't any observers by then?
To be honest I suspected that at the end was just Battler dreaming. He just wanted someone to show up and explain things. The whole scene with Genji coming to Battler and Beatrice/Kinzo interaction seem pretty dream-like.

Honestly that makes more sense if anything if you think that he is not exactly used to drinking(Kinzo's drinks are pretty strong) and he was in a state where he gave up on trying to be careful. I could easily see him falling asleep pretty quickly.
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Old 2012-04-23, 16:57   Link #28570
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I always thought he "died by alcohol poisoning"

I mean if i remember right the drinks were over 50% vol.

And didn't he empty a whole bottle or something like that?


Detective dying before time runs out is possible, as we see in EP3, and in EP5 or EP6 (not sure which) Erika states that Knox does not rule out the detective being killed.
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Old 2012-04-23, 18:03   Link #28571
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They're never seen together in ep1/2
Actually they were, this is just before we knew it was unreliable.

As for the whole DID misinterpretation. Basically, if you have no knowledge of psychiatry and ignore the fact that the condition as given does not exist (I'm looking at you Black Swan) you can probably more easily figure it out. Novels and movies often use mental conditions that don't exist, which would be cheating if we weren't given pretty good evidence within the story being told that it does. Knox's rule does allow for complex devices hinted at. So if we work from the idea her condition does exist, we can then see A: Ryu spent a chunk of game 6 justifying rather accurately why he calls them different people (the whole memories argument) and it doesn't actually clash with the medical definition of dead. Your heart is still beating (albeit in Shannon's body) but your brain can be dead.

And yes Kanon may have appeared in Ep 3's end, but who knows how true that even was. All we really know is Jessica was lead to the parlour.
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Old 2012-04-23, 20:00   Link #28572
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A: Ryu spent a chunk of game 6 justifying rather accurately why he calls them different people
Except that's not sufficiently 'early in the story' for Knox's definitions.

And MPD as Shkanon experiences it is almost literally magic since she can basically mind-control other people (who happen to be in her heaD) at will.
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Old 2012-04-23, 23:39   Link #28573
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There you go. ShKanon is magic. After all, it's not like it was ever said that Umineko's true solution could not contain Fantasy.
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Old 2012-04-24, 01:21   Link #28574
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Yea, except it renders thinking meaningless, bringing us back to the square one complaint.
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Old 2012-04-24, 08:56   Link #28575
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Actually they were, this is just before we knew it was unreliable.

As for the whole DID misinterpretation. Basically, if you have no knowledge of psychiatry and ignore the fact that the condition as given does not exist (I'm looking at you Black Swan) you can probably more easily figure it out. Novels and movies often use mental conditions that don't exist, which would be cheating if we weren't given pretty good evidence within the story being told that it does. Knox's rule does allow for complex devices hinted at. So if we work from the idea her condition does exist, we can then see A: Ryu spent a chunk of game 6 justifying rather accurately why he calls them different people (the whole memories argument) and it doesn't actually clash with the medical definition of dead. Your heart is still beating (albeit in Shannon's body) but your brain can be dead.

And yes Kanon may have appeared in Ep 3's end, but who knows how true that even was. All we really know is Jessica was lead to the parlour.
1. Never seen together from a reliable perspective - c'mon, you know what was meant.
2. I continue to not understand the need to try and use medical MPD / DID or whatever. I mean, "multiple personalities" is a simple way to phrase things, but the explanation the story itself repeatedly, repeatedly offered - that one can express very different parts of themselves in different contexts - seems way easier to work with. I mean, in your Black Swan example, I wouldn't say an alternate personality was growing, just a part of the person that had been severely repressed and was now being being indulged.
3. About Kanon in EP3, it's a small point, but it's interesting that unlike Shannon, he wasn't presented as being not-dead in the Fantasy - Jessica was talking to his ghost or whatever. Her blindness + "No, no touchies!" was an extremely convenient narrative contrivance.

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And MPD as Shkanon experiences it is almost literally magic since she can basically mind-control other people (who happen to be in her heaD) at will.
i thought you were part of the group that disregards referring to it as MPD or anything, because it makes things sillier?

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Yea, except it renders thinking meaningless, bringing us back to the square one complaint.
I'm so confused by the discussion right now.

Are we arguing whether or not the mystery was at all solvable? Or whether Shkanon was a worthwhile trick to hinge said solva-bility on? Or whether Ryukishi reserves the right to be misleading and vague by stating afterwards "Well, I guess it might not make sense to everybody"?


On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside, I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it."
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Old 2012-04-24, 12:59   Link #28576
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Are we arguing whether or not the mystery was at all solvable? Or whether Shkanon was a worthwhile trick to hinge said solva-bility on? Or whether Ryukishi reserves the right to be misleading and vague by stating afterwards "Well, I guess it might not make sense to everybody"?
The problem was that Ryukishi cheated, and in order to protect his cheating he ended up ruining the characterization of Beatrice and several other characters, made the Red meaningless for any legitimate problem-solving, and brought the whole thing down with him into a stupid semantic Logic Error when he didn't have to.
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Old 2012-04-24, 15:18   Link #28577
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Slight off topic on speculation but about what age are Bernkastel/Lamdadelta/Erika suppose to look like? I have seen depiction of Bernkastels that have her to a young teen to adult. The same with Lamdadelta.

As well that if Bernkastel is Hachijo's cat then what does Lamdadelta represent?

On a meta level of the story, I always felt that the two witches were just metaphor for Beatrice's deadend fate. More so that the witch of miracles was on the human side.

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2. I continue to not understand the need to try and use medical MPD / DID or whatever. I mean, "multiple personalities" is a simple way to phrase things, but the explanation the story itself repeatedly, repeatedly offered - that one can express very different parts of themselves in different contexts - seems way easier to work with. I mean, in your Black Swan example, I wouldn't say an alternate personality was growing, just a part of the person that had been severely repressed and was now being being indulged.
Indeed, I think that is what people use when referring to "multiple personalities".

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On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it."
Yasu even as Lion would have gender issues as Lion did imply that Lion had a complex about it. I think that Yasuda living the life of a witch just massively enlarge those issues.

About the baby not having any wounds. Is even possible? I always had the image of the baby having a huge gash and battered head. Basically looking like it died.

I always wondered if Yasu suffered from brain damage, that Yasuda had trouble formulating memories. It would explain a few things such as:

Not noticing that he/she is three older then his/her given age

You can get away with adults not noticing that via Genji but why not Yasuda? Image that you are five years and you are told that you really are two years old. Yasuda not finding that strange could be explained that Yasuda has trouble remembering the past properly.

Remembering Shannon in the third person and the sudden shift into Shannon's life

Could be explained if Yasuda misremembering things. That Yasuda remembers the events in the third person but not that they happened to Yasuda. Basically that certain events that Yasuda remembers them as "things that happened to someone else".

In fact that all traces of Yasuda is gone when Shannon becomes the main character of the witch's tale.


About the Kuwadorian, how much of a secret was it? People in Ange's future seem to know. If anything I doubt many people would care who helped build it, just an eccentric rich man building another mansion on his private island. Even if someone did investigate into the matter, I doubt that many people would reach the conclusion that he raised his daughter in the Kuwadorian who was also his mistress.
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Old 2012-04-24, 15:27   Link #28578
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Slight off topic on speculation but about what age are Bernkastel/Lamdadelta/Erika suppose to look like? I have seen depiction of Bernkastels that have her to a young teen to adult. The same with Lamdadelta.
It's my understanding that they're fairly young-looking. Bernkastel is supposed to look like Rika but may be slightly older-looking (on the order of a couple years, at most, if at all), and Lambda is supposed to look like a young Takano. More or less. Eva-Beatrice is supposed to look high-school age because she shares her sprite with Young Eva, and that's how old she was during the scenes where that sprite gets used.

I would have to think their appearance would be no older than twelve.

Beatrice would be in the 19-22 range (we know exactly how old she's supposed to be, and we can kinda guess the age of the person from whom Meta-Beatrice takes her appearance). Battler is 18, Ange is 18.

Strangely, Erika is also around 18, at least if we take the claim that she's "about [Jessica's] age" literally. However she doesn't look 18 in the slightest, closer to 16 to me. She could just be a bit short for her age, but I forget how tall she is compared to other characters in OMK, which while not official is about as close as you'd get to an accurate height comparison.
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Old 2012-04-24, 15:51   Link #28579
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When I speak the truth, I will use red [...] Everything I speak in red is the truth
At risk of me sounding pedantic, Beato did actually say that she would speak the truth in red, so maybe characters who haven't made this claim can lie in the red text? None of the other characters make this guarantee, maybe except Eva-Beatrice.
I would still classify that as cheating, though.

The optimist inside me is saying that there are details about the red text that we weren't actually told and are supposed to figure out, and that these apparent lies are supposed to draw our attention to this.

Or, at least, it's more fun for me to think of it that way, even if that may ultimately be fruitless.
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Old 2012-04-24, 16:21   Link #28580
Kealym
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Spoiler for reply to Golden Dust:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Strangely, Erika is also around 18, at least if we take the claim that she's "about [Jessica's] age" literally. However she doesn't look 18 in the slightest, closer to 16 to me. She could just be a bit short for her age, but I forget how tall she is compared to other characters in OMK, which while not official is about as close as you'd get to an accurate height comparison.
It's always been a little wonky. Erika definitely LOOKS younger than Battler and Jessica, despite being described as "about their age." She wears some of Jessica's old clothes. When she argues with Maria in Dawn, she excuses herself with "Teehee sorry, I'm just a kid too." after George is all "I can't abide that, AS AN ADULT." even though George is also grouped with the "children".

Just kinda assume she's 14/15 to max out all possible anime-protagonist-tropes.
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