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View Poll Results: Critique of Episode 28
10: Amazing... 4 8.33%
9 out of 10: Excellent... 4 8.33%
8 out of 10: Very Good... 13 27.08%
7 out of 10: Good... 12 25.00%
6 out of 10: Average... 7 14.58%
5 out of 10: Below Average... 5 10.42%
4 out of 10: Poor... 3 6.25%
3 out of 10: Bad... 0 0%
2 out of 10: Very Bad... 0 0%
1 out of 10: Torturous... 0 0%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-23, 15:27   Link #141
atilim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Win the war first (by which I mean destroy the Vagan's warmaking capability) and negotiate at gunpoint like any civilized army? It really isn't that difficult to figure out.



Yes, but when does that ever happen?
Isn't that the same thing as wiping out people that call themselves Vagan.

If I was the leader of the Fed. after defeating Vagan I would of course allow them to live in the Fed, but I wouldn't allow them to live in large numbers in the same area/colony and I wouldn't allow them to call themselves Vagan anymore.

And here I just destroyed Vagan.

Also your assuming that their blind devotion for their leader and their cause allow them to surrender. During eps 15 when the Vagan ship was about to get destroyed the people their where more then happy to keep working no mater how pointless it was. Also lets not forget the fact that they use the X-Rounder helmet which proven to be dangerous for the brain of the user, the Vagan soldiers are more then willing to use the helmet.

I find the concept of peace with suicidal people a little bit unlikely and give it enough time Vagan will probably kill themselves since they don't mind dying.

Last edited by atilim; 2012-04-23 at 18:00. Reason: wouldn't sould have been would
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Old 2012-04-23, 17:48   Link #142
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atilim View Post
Isn't that the same thing as wiping out people that call themselves Vagan.
Depends on what the terms end up being.


Quote:
If I was the leader of the Fed. after defeating Vagan I wouldn't of course allow them to live in the Fed, but I wouldn't allow them to live in large numbers in the same area/colony and I wouldn't allow them to call themselves Vagan anymore.
And depending on circumstances, I might be a lot more merciful. Hell, I'd have to be - the logistics of what you propose aren't a trivial problem. Unless we're talking about genocide, but if I don't condone genocide when it's caused by rage, I'll condone it even less when it's cause by laziness.

Quote:
And here I just destroyed Vagan.

Also your assuming that their blind devotion for their leader and their cause allow them to surrender.
Yes, and why wouldn't I? For that matter, once enough of their capabilities are destroyed, it doesn't really matter if they surrender or not. I can just let them stew.

Quote:
During eps 15 when the Vagan ship was about to get destroyed the people their where more then happy to keep working no mater how pointless it was. Also lets not forget the fact that they use the X-Rounder helmet which proven to be dangerous for the brain of the user, the Vagan soldiers are more then willing to use the helmet.
So? Those are their vanguard. Their most fanatical soldiers. We know nothing of those at the back of the lines, let alone their civilians.

And we know nothing of how desperate they are, and how a dose of hope would mellow them out.

And we're not even sure they consider the helmet dangerous - Flit did precisely because he didn't know the tech behind it, but the Vagans created it.

Quote:
I find the concept of peace with suicidal people a little bit unlikely and give it enough time Vagan will probably kill themselves since they don't mind dying.
That's like saying it's ok to kill all arabs because a few of them crashed planes into the Twin Towers or blew themselves up.

Considering the quality of the writing, I don't expect an in depth exposition of how the Vagans really are, but we haven't seen anything so far that'd justify genocide. Any such thing would be motivated by revenge, not survival.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2012-04-24 at 01:17.
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Old 2012-04-23, 18:31   Link #143
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atilim View Post
I find the concept of peace with suicidal people a little bit unlikely and give it enough time Vagan will probably kill themselves since they don't mind dying.
As stated already it's not that complicated.

The Vagans are pretty much loyal to Lord Ezcelant to the end and will die for him.

The only way to avoid complete destruction would be to take him out.

Quote:
So? Those are their vanguard. Their most fanatical soldiers. We know nothing of those at the back of the lines, let alone their civilians.

And we know nothing of how desperate they are, and how a dose of hope would mellow them out.

And we're not even sure they consider the helmet dangerous - Flit did precisely because he didn't know the tech behind it, but the Vagans created it.
We don't know if the civilians are even anywhere near the Earth Sphere. Again they could all be at Mars awaiting the green light when the Earth is there's for the taking.
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Old 2012-04-23, 19:57   Link #144
Bonta Kun
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I can't be the only person that thinks that super Vagan suit has possibly the worst colour scheme ever?
Theres alot of problems with this series and all but all of it suddenly seems to really pale in comparison to this woefully coloured MS-__-

Thats the only thing I'll mention here, god knows what they thinking about there.
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Old 2012-04-23, 20:07   Link #145
WefiDasst
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Wish they put some time into relationships between characters.

Im sure we going to see all three Pilots fighting some Epic final battle.
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Old 2012-04-23, 20:37   Link #146
Revolutionist
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Being gracious in victory and showing mercy to your enemy is what leads to lasting peace, not the total annihilation approach.

In this episode the PM says: "This war will go on until one side is completely destroyed" and Flit replies: "That's been my intention all along. Because my goal is the extermination of Vagan!"

Does that really sound like a hero to you guys?

Asemu in the other hand doesn't fight for revenge or to exterminate the other side. As cheesy as it may sound his reason for fighting makes him a proper hero.

Flit is obsessed with revenge, it's basically consumed him. He went from fighting to protect people and being a savior during the Bat extermination days, to trying to exterminate the Vagans.

In the end it doesn't matter if Vagan don't want peace, because Flit doesn't want it either. He's onece more using the Vagans failure to compromise to justify and rationalize his obsession with genocide.
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Old 2012-04-23, 21:54   Link #147
Skye629
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Thoughts

1. Asem as the White Wolf: I don't mind the Tribute, the uniform and suit fits Asem IMO so keep that as a momento, but I only want to see that white AGE-2 once and never again, because if all 3 gens fight side by side in their Gundam's its gonna be stupid with an all-white one

2. IDK y everyone (well most) said Zeheart and Asem made up, they didn't they simply had different reasons for blowing up the Vegan station (which both involved saving the Earth). They did this, and shook hands for old times sake since they happened to work together again. In gen 3 they're still gonna be on opposite sides period so it will be interesting to see how that turns out

3. Flit not attending his sons wedding, it seems DOWNRIGHT COLD, but dont forget he more or less just shook the whole EF Government to its very core, hes a high priority target now and if he attended he may risk putting all he care for in danger, not to mention EF security in AGE is shit

4. Gen 3, wouldn't it be funny if Kio despite his innocent looks become a sadistic killer whenever he pilots the AGE-3? Unlikely but would be quite interesting rofl

5. Liking the Gen 3 Feddie mass production suit designs better than the Vegan ones
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Old 2012-04-23, 22:01   Link #148
kakakka
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Flit has been fighting for too long now.

Now that I think about it, Flit will be "home" more during Kio's arc, because of his retirement from the force. He'll be more hands-on in sculpting Kio into a soldier that will fight Vagans in his stead, than Asem. I wonder what that will turn out.

Last edited by kakakka; 2012-04-24 at 01:25.
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Old 2012-04-23, 22:11   Link #149
WefiDasst
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Think the reason behind flit not being at the Wedding is that he's basically high in the ranks, and helping to reform the EFF/or Working on important stuff.
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Old 2012-04-23, 22:43   Link #150
larethian
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Originally Posted by WefiDasst View Post
Think the reason behind flit not being at the Wedding is that he's basically high in the ranks, and helping to reform the EFF/or Working on important stuff.
I kind of agree. IIRC, on Asem's birthday, it was mentioned that he only managed to get 1 day of leave because of his duties.
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Old 2012-04-24, 01:22   Link #151
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
As stated already it's not that complicated.

The Vagans are pretty much loyal to Lord Ezcelant to the end and will die for him.

The only way to avoid complete destruction would be to take him out.



We don't know if the civilians are even anywhere near the Earth Sphere. Again they could all be at Mars awaiting the green light when the Earth is there's for the taking.
So? I never objected to killing the soldiers that are already invading. I objected to genocide - going to Mars and killing everyone.
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Old 2012-04-24, 01:26   Link #152
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Being gracious in victory and showing mercy to your enemy is what leads to lasting peace, not the total annihilation approach.

In this episode the PM says: "This war will go on until one side is completely destroyed" and Flit replies: "That's been my intention all along. Because my goal is the extermination of Vagan!"

Does that really sound like a hero to you guys?
And yet we had every Nazi an Imperial Japanese war criminals executed as much can be proven in court.

We've already seen Flit spare young Decil. So no he wont genocide women and children.

What he will destroy is the very idea of Vegan and their military capacity.

Because really no matter how many times you kick them off their invasion forces in Earth sphere they coming back to attack wont end until you take the battle to them or they've wasted every man and woman trying to take over Earth.

Think of the Vegans as North Korea without the saber rattling. They are resource poor and yet puts importance to the military. The elite like Decil and Magician 8 treated better than others. A society driven by cult of personality and an ideology of a superior race.

Realistically Vegans does not have the numbers to pull it off. They are facing the collective might of the Earth Federation and the colonies. I doubt the Euba-Zalam alliance will just take Vegans attacking their colonies laying down.
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Old 2012-04-24, 02:19   Link #153
Gundamx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
Being gracious in victory and showing mercy to your enemy is what leads to lasting peace, not the total annihilation approach.

In this episode the PM says: "This war will go on until one side is completely destroyed" and Flit replies: "That's been my intention all along. Because my goal is the extermination of Vagan!"

Does that really sound like a hero to you guys?

Asemu in the other hand doesn't fight for revenge or to exterminate the other side. As cheesy as it may sound his reason for fighting makes him a proper hero.

Flit is obsessed with revenge, it's basically consumed him. He went from fighting to protect people and being a savior during the Bat extermination days, to trying to exterminate the Vagans.

In the end it doesn't matter if Vagan don't want peace, because Flit doesn't want it either. He's onece more using the Vagans failure to compromise to justify and rationalize his obsession with genocide.
Huh? It's the other way:
In the end it doesn't matter if Flit don't want peace, because Vegan doesn't want it either.
After all they are killing a lot of Innocent while ignoring all peace treaty from FED.
While Flit was in defense side the whole time.


And to people who said the Vegan are evil so it's ok while Flit is a hero so it's Big NO or he become worse the Vegan(If not the Devil himself...)
You make me remember joke from Gintama, it's called the Jaian theory:
When the big bully guy who bully everyone 24/7 days year done one simple good thing he suddenly become one of most great/good guy with good/big heart.
(Zeheart = He still plan to have whole earth for Vegan Eden even if he have to sacrifice himself you know ...)

BUT when the goody good little girl done one act of selfish/wrong she become the most evil character even wore than Jaian....
(Flit = Revenge is bad so you are worse than Vegan if not the Devil himself...)
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Old 2012-04-24, 02:49   Link #154
Dengar
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It's been established from the start that Flit is no hero of justice though. I fail to see the problem people have with this. It's not like not being a hero suddenly makes him a villain instead. No matter how you coat it, the extermination of an entire population is not a noble thing. And is not a thing that will lead to peace.
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Old 2012-04-24, 03:45   Link #155
KaiDamien
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
What part of Vegans blackmailing and bribing Fed officials did you not get.

In terms of the prime minister it was family dirt. Well that dirt is pretty much public knowledge given the UE now known a Vegans were Mars colonist remnants.
No i'm just curious in the aspect of how extensive the damage the corrupts did. And i can't recall anything that they did (other then the cover up) that was 'game-changing' in the war.
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Old 2012-04-24, 04:36   Link #156
atilim
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Originally Posted by KaiDamien View Post
No i'm just curious in the aspect of how extensive the damage the corrupts did. And i can't recall anything that they did (other then the cover up) that was 'game-changing' in the war.
I would go as far as to say that the only reason why their is a war is because of the corrupt officials.

We have seen the mobile suit factory plants in a Fed. colony
We have seen Vagan able to infiltrate and integrate in colony without any trouble
We have seen Vagan mobile suits smuggled in colony without any trouble

The first one alone allows Vagan to keep their war going, the second one allows them to gather information and if necessary destroy the colony or building.

Also during the last major battle you saw how the the top of Vagan knew about a secret weapon Flit was using, if they didn't know the existence then they wouldn't have dodged the attack which would have destroyed allot of their ships and mobile suits.

And personally I'm also wondering in what ways the corrupt politicians and military leaders prevented the advancement in mobile suit development. It isn't hard to imagine that by removing low profile but important people that the MS development of the Fed
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Old 2012-04-24, 06:06   Link #157
RES-01 Perses Gundam
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Originally Posted by atilim View Post
I would go as far as to say that the only reason why their is a war is because of the corrupt officials.

We have seen the mobile suit factory plants in a Fed. colony
We have seen Vagan able to infiltrate and integrate in colony without any trouble
We have seen Vagan mobile suits smuggled in colony without any trouble

The first one alone allows Vagan to keep their war going, the second one allows them to gather information and if necessary destroy the colony or building.

Also during the last major battle you saw how the the top of Vagan knew about a secret weapon Flit was using, if they didn't know the existence then they wouldn't have dodged the attack which would have destroyed allot of their ships and mobile suits.

And personally I'm also wondering in what ways the corrupt politicians and military leaders prevented the advancement in mobile suit development. It isn't hard to imagine that by removing low profile but important people that the MS development of the Fed
What I think is that they escalated the conflict between the Feddies and the Vagans. By trading with the Vagans, they allowed the Vagans access to Earth's resources and made it more economical for them to fight a full-scale war in the Earth sphere. They also leaked crucial info to the Vagans on the Feddies' battle capabilities, allowing the Vagans to draw up reliable contingency measures during their skirmishes with the Feddies.

But I won't go as far as saying that the corrupt faction alone was sufficient to cause a war between the Feddies and the Vagans. The basis for war between the two warring parties was already established way before the corrupt faction gained prominence. They merely created some aggravating conditions for the war. I'm sure Ezelcant would have found some other ways to fight a sustainable war with the Feddies, even if it would take a longer time to implement and put into fruition.
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Old 2012-04-24, 10:23   Link #158
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atilim View Post
And personally I'm also wondering in what ways the corrupt politicians and military leaders prevented the advancement in mobile suit development. It isn't hard to imagine that by removing low profile but important people that the MS development of the Fed
I'm also wondering how the hell the Federation failed in its negotations with the Vagans to begin with if the Prime Minister was involved.

I mean it's not that hard. Set up a huge military failure for the Federation which would give the Minister an excuse to set up a peace treaty in favour of the Vagans.

The only reason this is is because the Vagans are not interested in co-existing with the Earth Sphere to begin with.

Quote:
It's been established from the start that Flit is no hero of justice though. I fail to see the problem people have with this. It's not like not being a hero suddenly makes him a villain instead. No matter how you coat it, the extermination of an entire population is not a noble thing. And is not a thing that will lead to peace.
It's been established from the start the the GUNDAM is the symbol of hope and as a saviour to the people. That's the whole premises of this series. The AGE Gundam itself.

I don't think anyone here ever said anything about justice. Flit at the start talked about protecting the people he loved and cared for.

So far the show's been consistent with that theme as the Federation's resistance has revolved around the Gundam itself.

Quote:
I objected to genocide - going to Mars and killing everyone.
Until I see them actually been serious about going to Mars then that's just plain spectulation on your guys part to try to paint Flit as some genocidal maniac.

Given the fact that Flit isn't part of the new government and that he's retired by Kio's time the chances of that happening is very low.
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Old 2012-04-24, 11:35   Link #159
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post


Until I see them actually been serious about going to Mars then that's just plain spectulation on your guys part to try to paint Flit as some genocidal maniac.

G.

LOL

what do you call this, jesting? Certainly looks like he's just joking about that idea, right?
Spoiler for pic:
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Old 2012-04-24, 12:22   Link #160
atilim
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
LOL

what do you call this, jesting? Certainly looks like he's just joking about that idea, right?
Spoiler for pic:
I don't see him saying ''I'm going to send soldiers to Mars and destroy everything their''

On the other hand this is what Vagan exactly does
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