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Old 2012-04-24, 21:00   Link #861
Impassive Harlequin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
*confused*. Why would you go for Termins Est? We know next to nothing about her. She's only appeared once.

Saying the spirit kings are self centered doesn't really make sense. They haven't done anything to warrant that. I mean they do have a horde of priestesses each, but other than freezing Rinslet's sister they haven't actually done anything bad.

Ok. I'm going to do some book summaries after work today. Maybe I might do a chapter if I have time. Prepare to be BLOWN away. Just kidding about being blown away.
Well simply because she hasn't been claimed and also because someone said that she was a kuudere... cuteness+white hair(well silver works too)+kuudere is the best possible combination for me, add "mystery" in that equation and it gets even better XD

thank you for taking the time to do summaries
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:26   Link #862
Sylphic
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I would agree with the fire king over reacting if we actually knew what the nature of Claire's sister's betrayal was. It's unexplained.

I don't recall reading anything about setting the whole continent on fire. All of the countries in the book are on the same continent and are doing fine. On top of that, no one outside of Claire's country even knows about the "calamity queen". Maybe I missed something.
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:29   Link #863
Moe Connection
Basileus Basileōn
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
I would agree with the fire king over reacting if we actually knew what the nature of Claire's sister's betrayal was. It's unexplained.

I don't recall reading anything about setting the whole continent on fire. All of the countries in the book are on the same continent and are doing fine. On top of that, no one outside of Claire's country even knows about the "calamity queen". Maybe I missed something.
Claire's sister stole an important fire spirit from the fire spirit king temple. And there's an error with your knowledge. Almost everyone in the world knows who the calamity queen is. She's just that infamous.
Spoiler for spoiler:
Hence, the Spirit Kings are selfish,tyrannical deities.
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Last edited by Moe Connection; 2012-04-24 at 22:46.
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:37   Link #864
Richocet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Claire's sister stole an important fire spirit from the fire spirit king temple. And there's an error with your knowledge. Almost everyone in the world knows who the calamity queen is. She's just that infamous.
Spoiler for spoiler:
Hence, the Spirit Kings are selfish,tyrannical deities.
Thats so...I don't have the words to describe my utter distaste for this kind of attitude...and they wonder y certain people would wanna go against them??
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:44   Link #865
Sylphic
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Not really.

Oh right, she stole a fire spirit. I forgot. Obviously it must have been of great importance. We can't judge the nature of that until we know what she did exactly and why.

As for Rinslet's sister, that's just wrong. The Japanese novel implies that she did something that offended the water king, perhaps accidentally. She wasn't frozen simply because she was disliked. She wasn't close to succession as the main priestess either. She was recommended to serve with the hundreds of other priestesses.

As for Calamity Queen, no one outside of the main country has a clue. Check Volume 4, in the ball prior to the blade dance, the ones remarking she is the sister of the calamity queen are nobles from her country. The other countries have no clue. Someone even asks her to dance.

I could be wrong though.
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:48   Link #866
Moe Connection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
Not really.

Oh right, she stole a fire spirit. I forgot. Obviously it must have been of great importance. We can't judge the nature of that until we know what she did exactly and why.

As for Rinslet's sister, that's just wrong. The Japanese novel implies that she did something that offended the water king, perhaps accidentally. She wasn't frozen simply because she was disliked. She wasn't close to succession as the main priestess either. She was recommended to serve with the hundreds of other priestesses.
Same thing. He disliked her because she did something wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post
As for Calamity Queen, no one outside of the main country has a clue. Check Volume 4, in the ball prior to the blade dance, the ones remarking she is the sister of the calamity queen are nobles from her country. The other countries have no clue. Someone even asks her to dance.

I could be wrong though.
When the crown prince of a country asked claire for a dance, one of the nobles from his entourage cautioned the prince because he recognised that she's the sister of the calamity queen due to her hair colour.
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Old 2012-04-24, 22:57   Link #867
Sylphic
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Hmm ok I guess I'm wrong about the Calamity Queen then. I'm going to be rereading if I can make time to translate. I totally missed anything about setting the whole continent on fire during my read through.

I dunno about the water king though. Who knows what Rinslet's sister did. It could have been pretty serious. She wasn't disliked, she was frozen as punishment for an offense. That's why Rinslet wants to ask for forgiveness rather than a simple please unfreeze my sister wish

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richocet View Post
Thats so...I don't have the words to describe my utter distaste for this kind of attitude...and they wonder y certain people would wanna go against them??
Probably because they hand out blessings like water too. The winning country of the blade dance is supposed to be blessed with so much prosperity that it becomes a matter of national security for all their neighbors. They also give everyone their spirit tech and powers.

All they ask for in return is steady stream of donations of lolis!
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Old 2012-04-24, 23:07   Link #868
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Originally Posted by Sylphic View Post

I dunno about the water king though. Who knows what Rinslet's sister did. It could have been pretty serious. She wasn't disliked, she was frozen as punishment for an offense. That's why Rinslet wants to ask for forgiveness rather than a simple please unfreeze my sister wish

I doubt it was a serious offense. If it was, there's no way people didn't know about it. Eye witnesses are bound to slander Rinslet's sister anyway they can--they fact that they didn't know what happened probably meant that it wasn't serious enough, and only the Water King and Rinslet's sister knows what happened.Either way, it's no way as serious as what Claire's sister did, and he shouldn't have frozen people for petty offences.Only tyrants act this way.
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Old 2012-04-24, 23:22   Link #869
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As i said before, it is too hard to make out their personality due to the fact that so far their havent been any siprit king appearence, only people talk about them and their action, the only thing that is clear is the fact that in aworld where people lives depend on the spirit, they are literally absolute being and maybe thats where their self centered come from.
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Old 2012-04-25, 00:21   Link #870
Moe Connection
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
As i said before, it is too hard to make out their personality due to the fact that so far their havent been any siprit king appearence, only people talk about them and their action, the only thing that is clear is the fact that in aworld where people lives depend on the spirit, they are literally absolute being and maybe thats where their self centered come from.
Excessive, indiscriminate and selfish as well. Their punishments were disproportional to the offender's crimes. Whatever you say, you can't refute that they are arbitrary,cruel and unreasonable--definitions of a despot. In fact, they are worse tyrants than Gilgamesh. At least he wouldn't punish you if you didn't commit any crime.
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Old 2012-04-25, 00:21   Link #871
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
I doubt it was a serious offense. If it was, there's no way people didn't know about it. Eye witnesses are bound to slander Rinslet's sister anyway they can--they fact that they didn't know what happened probably meant that it wasn't serious enough, and only the Water King and Rinslet's sister knows what happened.Either way, it's no way as serious as what Claire's sister did, and he shouldn't have frozen people for petty offences.Only tyrants act this way.
There's also the possibility that spirits have different set of law and value than human. Minor offence for us might be something worthy of total raze of continent for them, just like how killing an entire family for the sake of revenge for your father is considered the norm in ancient China.
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Old 2012-04-25, 00:26   Link #872
Moe Connection
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
There's also the possibility that spirits have different set of law and value than human. Minor offence for us might be something worthy of total raze of continent for them, just like how killing an entire family for the sake of revenge for your father is considered the norm in ancient China.
What? That's not true. You don't do that in CHina, at least I don't recognise that norm. What I do know, however, is that in China, treason is punishable in days of the emperors, by exterminating all those who are related to the offender by nine degrees. Yongle Emperor, exceptionally,exterminated Emperor Jianwen's teacher's relations by ten degrees, including his students and friends because he refused to recognise him as legitimate emperor for usurping his nephew's throne.
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Old 2012-04-25, 00:54   Link #873
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
What? That's not true. You don't do that in CHina, at least I don't recognise that norm. What I do know, however, is that in China, treason is punishable in days of the emperors, by exterminating all those who are related to the offender by nine degrees. Yongle Emperor, exceptionally,exterminated Emperor Jianwen's teacher's relations by ten degrees, including his students and friends because he refused to recognise him as legitimate emperor for usurping his nephew's throne.
That is called, 株灭九族。 If I remember correctly, the idea is to kill any and all descendants for nine generations. The idea to make sure there won't be anyone who could possibly take revenge. It's an example of "cutting out the roots" zhan (can't remember the character) 草除根
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Old 2012-04-25, 01:14   Link #874
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Originally Posted by whsie View Post
That is called, 株灭九族。 If I remember correctly, the idea is to kill any and all descendants for nine generations. The idea to make sure there won't be anyone who could possibly take revenge. It's an example of "cutting out the roots" zhan (can't remember the character) 草除根
Not nine generations, it's nine degrees. They kill not only your descendants, but the following category: The criminal's living parents
-- The criminal's living grandparents
-- Any children the criminal may have, over a certain age (which is usually variable depending on the time period)
-- Any grandchildren the criminal may have, over a certain age (which is usually variable depending on the time period)
-- Siblings and siblings-in-law (the siblings of the criminal and that of his or her spouse, in the case where he or she is married)
-- Uncles of the criminal, as well as their spouses
-- The criminal himself
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Old 2012-04-25, 01:17   Link #875
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
What? That's not true. You don't do that in CHina, at least I don't recognise that norm. What I do know, however, is that in China, treason is punishable in days of the emperors, by exterminating all those who are related to the offender by nine degrees. Yongle Emperor, exceptionally,exterminated Emperor Jianwen's teacher's relations by ten degrees, including his students and friends because he refused to recognise him as legitimate emperor for usurping his nephew's throne.
It was practiced in early china history I think, in the qin shi huang rein IIRC. Whsie get it right, the purpose was to make sure the chain of revenge doesn't continue because at that time, not getting revenge for your father's death is considered unfilial act and highly looked down upon, so if you don't kill the other people whole family, his son is expected to get his revenge on you, hence starting a chain of revenge. I'm not sure whether the revenge is punishable by law or not though if it's done before getting a court order. No matter what, it can be said to be a very cruel norm/law by today standard since you're basically killing innocent people just because they're a family of a convict.

But, let's stop the off-topic discussion here. What I meant with my example was, a spirit, especially their king, moral value and law might not necessarily mirror human's and not necessarily evil(well, they are if viewed from human perspective I guess lol). After all, they are a different kind of existence from human, just like how human is a different existence than animal, which also have their own set of law(usually within their pack).
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Old 2012-04-25, 01:26   Link #876
Moe Connection
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
What I meant with my example was, a spirit, especially their king, moral value and law might not necessarily mirror human's and not necessarily evil(well, they are if viewed from human perspective I guess lol). After all, they are a different kind of existence from human, just like how human is a different existence than animal, which also have their own set of law(usually within their pack).
But can't we just agree that from a human perspective, they are tyrants when compared to deities such as Bible God, Buddha etc? Their actions even put some of the greek gods to shame. The punishment of prometheus and humans in general by sending Pandora to open her jar was the only thing I could think of that's just as indiscriminate.
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Old 2012-04-25, 01:32   Link #877
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hm, I wasn't aware the intent of the punishment went that far (no revenge= non filial). Of course, I just remember this from a random conversation. Never really studied it in detail. Regarding that, I don't think it started from Qin Shi Huang. Even though he was known for his cruelty under Han Fei Zhi's philosophy, I think that term originated from the Ming Dynasty. But then again, this is all from memory.

Actually, history has not exactly shown god to be merciful. Even the biblical God supposedly flooded the world (Noah's Ark).
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Old 2012-04-25, 01:49   Link #878
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Indeed. But even among human, you have a law that state a theft is punishable by a cut of hand so I'm unwilling to judge the spirits king as evil because for me the line of being evil or not lies in the intent. Doing cruel things because of their own set of laws is not evil for me, just cruel, while doing cruel things just for the sake of seeing people suffer is evil.

Just like you said, the spirit kings action is cruel and excessive by human standard, but there's no indication that they do it in the brim of the moment just to see human suffer so far in the novel. They always do the punishment as a reaction to a human's mistake(if Sylphic's is right about Rinslet's sister being frozen due to an offense, no matter how small it is, not because the spirit king dislike her, since I haven't read that far yet). Maybe if we see from their perspective, Rinset and claire's sister offence is a huge matter for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
hm, I wasn't aware the intent of the punishment went that far (no revenge= non filial). Of course, I just remember this from a random conversation. Never really studied it in detail. Regarding that, I don't think it started from Qin Shi Huang. Even though he was known for his cruelty under Han Fei Zhi's philosophy, I think that term originated from the Ming Dynasty. But then again, this is all from memory.

Actually, history has not exactly shown god to be merciful. Even the biblical God supposedly flooded the world (Noah's Ark).
Sorry for double posting, but editing post is a hassle on tablet pc lol. The revenge is practiced as far back as han dynasty, so it definitely doesn't stem from Ming dynasty, although I'm not sure if it was made unto a law or just a custom during han dynasty. I also only heard this from my late grandfather though, so I can't be sure of it.

I agree with your second statement. Don't forget that biblical god was also said to punish people to be unable to communicate just because they got too close to him by building babel tower, which is something unthinkable if done by human(it's like me shooting at someone's leg just because I don't like them getting close to me lol).

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2012-04-25 at 08:13.
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Old 2012-04-25, 02:08   Link #879
Kleeyook
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I'm from Theravada sect and I don't like it when people refer to Buddha as a god. He's an enlightened person who's close to god (even supreme beings have to respect him) but he's definitely human. When Buddhism spread to China, the Chinese just changed it a bit to make Buddhism more similar to their religion.

Even gods from Hindu are not very nice despite their concept to uphold dharma. The only one I consider flawless is Brahma. Vishnu's avatars are not too nice. The rest of the gods are varied in their personality but the leader of the gods, Indra, has a habit of boning sages' wives, aka adultery. They're the nicest bunch we have compared to Greek, Norse, Aztec and Babylonian though.

BTW, according to Chinese history, there are times when ten of thousands people were executed for the crime one guy committed. Chinese is also the bloodiest nation in history. I read a lot of Chinese comics (manhua) and the revenge practice appears in most of them, so much I got tired.
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Old 2012-04-25, 02:12   Link #880
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This is a little part of our lovely Ellis

Spoilers
Spoiler for A Scene in The Store
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This is dedicate for Ellis mania.

Sorry for bad english!!!
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