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Old 2012-04-24, 16:35   Link #28581
cronnoponno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
At risk of me sounding pedantic, Beato did actually say that she would speak the truth in red, so maybe characters who haven't made this claim can lie in the red text? None of the other characters make this guarantee, maybe except Eva-Beatrice.
I would still classify that as cheating, though.

The optimist inside me is saying that there are details about the red text that we weren't actually told and are supposed to figure out, and that these apparent lies are supposed to draw our attention to this.

Or, at least, it's more fun for me to think of it that way, even if that may ultimately be fruitless.
I don't think this really works for most characters.


If you're able to lie with the truth, why would claiming that you will always speak the red with the truth make any difference then?
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Old 2012-04-24, 17:27   Link #28582
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
At risk of me sounding pedantic, Beato did actually say that she would speak the truth in red, so maybe characters who haven't made this claim can lie in the red text? None of the other characters make this guarantee, maybe except Eva-Beatrice.
I would still classify that as cheating, though.

The optimist inside me is saying that there are details about the red text that we weren't actually told and are supposed to figure out, and that these apparent lies are supposed to draw our attention to this.

Or, at least, it's more fun for me to think of it that way, even if that may ultimately be fruitless.
The red truth is simply the truth.

Regardless, Beatrice is the problematic one here with her redefining of terms.
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Old 2012-04-24, 17:46   Link #28583
goldendust
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
At risk of me sounding pedantic, Beato did actually say that she would speak the truth in red, so maybe characters who haven't made this claim can lie in the red text? None of the other characters make this guarantee, maybe except Eva-Beatrice.
I would still classify that as cheating, though.

The optimist inside me is saying that there are details about the red text that we weren't actually told and are supposed to figure out, and that these apparent lies are supposed to draw our attention to this.

Or, at least, it's more fun for me to think of it that way, even if that may ultimately be fruitless.
If we want to talk about that. How is red even regulated in terms of truth? How can you say what is truth or not. For example how does Bernkstel even know Kinzou never once trusted Natsuhi? That Battler knows that Natsuhi is faithful? Can Battler know that Natsuhi did not have an affair with Kinzou before he died?

Red truth IMO only exist to allow certain reasoning. It is suppsoe to cut down many possibilities and confirm facts. You can argue with the Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead could be misleading to the point of cheating if the body of Kanon/Shanon can still be active. Of course assuming that is the solution of the EP3. The youtube user KnownNoMore did make me wonder.

I do think the whole point of the red truth is hints that allow for certain forms of reasoning. The whole need of the red truth came up that Battler refused to reason with the information that was given to him. Coming up with theories without the red is not impossible. You can do with with EP1 although it is much more difficult to get the correct solution without any red to limit the solution.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's my understanding that they're fairly young-looking. Bernkastel is supposed to look like Rika but may be slightly older-looking (on the order of a couple years, at most, if at all), and Lambda is supposed to look like a young Takano. More or less. Eva-Beatrice is supposed to look high-school age because she shares her sprite with Young Eva, and that's how old she was during the scenes where that sprite gets used.

I would have to think their appearance would be no older than twelve.
That makes sense. Although the whole marshmallow massages and licking the whole body with honey does get somewhat uncomfortable to picture if you think they look like twelves year olds.

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Beatrice would be in the 19-22 range (we know exactly how old she's supposed to be, and we can kinda guess the age of the person from whom Meta-Beatrice takes her appearance). Battler is 18, Ange is 18.

Strangely, Erika is also around 18, at least if we take the claim that she's "about [Jessica's] age" literally. However she doesn't look 18 in the slightest, closer to 16 to me. She could just be a bit short for her age, but I forget how tall she is compared to other characters in OMK, which while not official is about as close as you'd get to an accurate height comparison.
Yeah Beatrice seemed like that age.

Erika like you said seems odd. She does not look that old. Although it could be the childish dress, and her generally childish attitude that gives that impression.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Mmm, well, I typically think of Bern as the reading audience, and Lambda as the "business" side of the publishing world, like editors and whatnot. For me, it reflects author theory, and the love/hate dynamic the two share, with Beato as the little author that's being used on one end, and enjoyed on the other.
Hmm, that is an interesting view on it.

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Yeah, but I'm not sure sometimes - the way we phrase things sometimes can make it easier to understand, but might not be as accurate as possible? Like, if I said "Beato and Kanon were fighting for control", what I really mean is "Yasu is having a hard time choosing between two impulses", not "Beato and Kanon are literally duking it out over who gets to control this body, like tiny people in a maid-shaped spaceship."
Indeed, although rather then multiple personalities. It is more that Yasuda cannot decide on an identity.


Quote:
Right, that's what I'm thinking as well - Yasu/Lion's gender drama exists independently of being cliff-puished. Well, originally I thought Lion was made androgynous as a Meta-move by Ryukishi to keep Yasu's gender hidden as well, but now I'm like "Whelp, maybe they're just one of those people who just aren't sure about ... that stuff." Not necessarily physically, but as far as how they identify themselves.
Indeed, I do not think that the physical was the main issue of Yasuda's gender issue. Although my thoery is that Yasuda only really suffered as witch since Genji/Nanjo revealed something that put the kid into utter confusion/repulsion about the body. Although I do think another in difference in handling the issue is safer family environment.

Quote:
My thinking has also changed on this. It was implied that the maid took the brunt of the fall, yes? I'm currently thinking any injury the baby had was relatively minimal, or else perhaps Yasu would've mentioned the resulting scars as something that alienated her from her peers. I mean, as we get it now, she was unpopular originally out of some combination of her own introversion, and "prissy bitches shall be prissy bitches. Those prissy bitches." Kinda similar to Ange, nows-I think about it.
Well wouldn't any scaring be pretty small by the time that Yasuda starts changing with the other girls? I he got the scarring as infant. I know that a scar I had as a little kid that was pretty big gotten pretty small as I older.

Also the same with Maria. I do think that the main problem was lack of stable family which is why they had trouble dealing with other people. Ange had no family but her aunt who hated her. Maria was in the same position, expect that Rosa shown more affection. While Yasuda really did not have any family. Kumasawa was more a of friendly adult rather a family or even maternal figure.

If you had to compare situations. Maria was the better as she had a mother that seem to try to be a good mother but is just not capable of it. Yasuda just did not really have any family growing up. Ange had it the worse since she knew what it was like to have a happy family and her only living family seemed to hate her.

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Well, I can't rule it out, but I think it'd be relatively simple to lie to a child about their age. Kids only know their own age by the adults in their lives repeatedly confirming it, and eventually having the documentation in-hand, and I doubt Yasu got a birth certificate (or whatever they do in Japan) normally since she was allegedly a secret-forest-incest-baby. Any physical difference between peers after 1-2 years of age can just be alot of "early bloomer / late bloomer" as necessary. Man, in my HS graduating class, we had a big Tony who was this 6foot 5 football playing tower, and little Tony, who was barely 5foot2 and didn't look a day over MAYBE 14. Bodies is weird, yo.
Well as someone who celebrated every birthday, I cannot really be objective. However I do remember when I was four, I would think that would be odd if I thought I was two at the time.

Indeed bodies are weird

Quote:
Furthermore, I actually have a very good friend who, due to questionable circumstances, isn't entirely sure of the year he was born in. At first I thought he was just being coy about his age, and I'm assuming his state I.D has to say SOMETHING, but apparently his family just didn't really acknowledge his passing birthdays for awhile as a kid, and he just rolled with it. Eh, it sounds kinda weird to me, but we discussed it very, very seriously one day and I don't have any real reason to think he's lying about it.
Hm, that is interesting.

Quote:
True that - I guess the Kuwadorian had to have been common knowledge by Ange's time since it's said Eva was found there (and if they really explored the island at ALL after the explosion, I guess they would've found it easily.)
To be honest, even Kraus should have known about it if he were to make a resort of the Rokenjima. An island is huge but a mansion is not that hard to find.

Quote:
On the other matter, though, I honestly just conflate Yasu and Shannon in my thoughts. I acknowledge the distinction, but don't make it very sharply.
Well I do not think even think that Yasuda is even a real person. It is just name that was used to have someone describe the Shannon's story in the third person.

If anything Yasuda is just the witch-like aspect of Shannon.
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Old 2012-04-24, 17:52   Link #28584
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Not noticing that he/she is three older then his/her given age

You can get away with adults not noticing that via Genji but why not Yasuda? Image that you are five years and you are told that you really are two years old. Yasuda not finding that strange could be explained that Yasuda has trouble remembering the past properly.
You're thinking so because you're basically thinking to a normal 5 years old.

The real keypoint here is that Yasu was 9 when she started working at the Ushiromiya but everyone believed she was 6. And a small and clumsy 6 years old for the matter which imply she wasn't your standard kid, as she was too small and clusmy for her real age.

In addition it was said in the Fukuin house she didn't really interact much with kids and was sick often so it's possible at 5 she was always in bed.

Plus she evidently wasn't properly schooled which ended up withoholding from her some careful info about how time and human development works.

It can seem pretty obvious for us but at first a kid can't really get that a younger kid doesn't have all his abilities and therefore CAN'T do the things he does. Also he won't immediately connect height and size to being older or younger.

The same goes for counting your age. At 3 kids aren't really sure what 'age' is while at 4 and 5 they start to feel prideful when they can tell you they're already 4 and sometimes they even say 'I'm already nearly 5' but that's because they learn this interacting with adults.

So, back to Yasu.

During the first years of her life she likely wasn't allowed to interact with kids. We don't really know when she started to but let's assume she started when she was 6 and she was placed in a group of 3 years old. Evidently her body size wasn't remarkable enough to make obvious she was older and likely her phisical ability was the same, possible due to the long time she spent in bed so at first glance the difference between her and 3 years old isn't that startling.
She likely also didn't receive any 'extra teaching' that would allow her to have a better understanding of the world.

In Umineko is said she had memory issues and had to write everything down. This doesn't necessary point to a phisical deficit. As memory needs to be trained to start working and there are times in which it's better to start the training, if she started late it would be more difficult for her to learn to memorize things. It didn't help the Ushiromiya likely dumped on her a huge amount of things to memorize without really helping her to learn how to memorize them while making her anxious, all in a time in which a child would also need a good amount of time to just play and relax... a thing Yasu didn't seem to do until Kumasawa teaches her some tricks to remember things.

I like to think it's possible/likely however that her mind despite being in bed, interacting with few people, usually adults and not getting a proper info dump for her age, was more developed than the one of kids 3 years younger than her.

It doesn't really work at her advantage thought as kids who're more mature and more used to interact with adults as well as not very confident of their own phisical abilities often end up cutting themselves from the group even though they long for friendship... which fit with Yasu having no friends.

So, to make short a long story, yes, it's possible that yasu didn't realize she was older... but this would mean that the people around her purposely neglected her cultural development.

Now... if they did so because, hey she was sick in bed so it was unfair to force her to learn things well... it's understandable.

If they did so because they wanted to trick her too into believing she was 3 years younger... well, they basically hampered her maturity growth and this is quite disgusting.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
About the Kuwadorian, how much of a secret was it? People in Ange's future seem to know. If anything I doubt many people would care who helped build it, just an eccentric rich man building another mansion on his private island. Even if someone did investigate into the matter, I doubt that many people would reach the conclusion that he raised his daughter in the Kuwadorian who was also his mistress.
Exactly. They apparently suspected he had a mistress in it as it was made evident that house hosted a woman but they didn't make the connection about her being his daughter.
Though theoretically it was possible to make it as the people that worked there would have known that a child had been raised there.

However it's possible that those servants were changed often as the one in the main house were so while late servants would know that the one in there was a lady the master courted and slept with, the ones that worked there earlier might think to an illegittimate daughter.

Unless the two groups of people were to release their info in full details the only sure thing would be there was a female in Kuwadorian.
For the first group it would be merely an illegittimate daughter raised there who later... left.
For the second group Kuwadorian would be the house that held Kinzo's mistress.

However, there are surprisingly very few info about Kuwadorian Beato (people doesn't even seem to know she was called Beato, they just assumed a female lived there because womanly stuffs were carried there) so the best explanation is that the servants taking care of her either were very loyal or pretty old and were dead by the time the tragedy strike so neither of them could reveal info about this Beato.
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Old 2012-04-24, 18:35   Link #28585
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
In Umineko is said she had memory issues and had to write everything down. This doesn't necessary point to a phisical deficit. As memory needs to be trained to start working and there are times in which it's better to start the training, if she started late it would be more difficult for her to learn to memorize things. It didn't help the Ushiromiya likely dumped on her a huge amount of things to memorize without really helping her to learn how to memorize them while making her anxious, all in a time in which a child would also need a good amount of time to just play and relax... a thing Yasu didn't seem to do until Kumasawa teaches her some tricks to remember things.
Hey, this brings up one quote I found in EP1 that didn't really fit anywhere but was kind of a huge anomaly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Episode 1 from when Shannon was invited to play cards and was about to get Kanon
As Kanon turned over a diary, he spoke without facing Shannon.
"............In that case, the children will be waiting for you. You will have to apologize and tell them that you have the night shift and won't be able to stay with them. ......Go and come back."
??!?! Kanon has a diary? Unless this is mistranslated as a servant workbook log or something. But I don't remember anywhere else where it mentions Shannon, Kanon or Beatrice keeps a diary. I suppose it isn't a big deal that they would have, but this is a big mechanism whereby they can externally share information between personalities...
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Old 2012-04-25, 00:39   Link #28586
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It's a servant workbook log, yea. The japanese term uses an impersonal word not used for autobiographical diaries, and...well, "a diary" isn't very personable at all.
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Old 2012-04-25, 03:47   Link #28587
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Yea, except it renders thinking meaningless, bringing us back to the square one complaint.
We'll have to agree to disagree, sure you can't reason out a real condition, but I (and others I am sure) reasoned out that they were different people living in the same body, hence the reds still applying. Actually I never even bothered to wonder if this condition existed, it seemed unnecessary for the plot.
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Old 2012-04-25, 06:20   Link #28588
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@AuraTwilight: Yeah, Beatrice is the main problem here, I was actually aware of that specific piece of red truth as well :P.

@Golden_dust: But surely there must be some sort of regulation? In episode 4, Battler tries to proclaim his own ancestry and chokes up on his own words and proceeds to later on get locked in a logic error for stating contradicting truths.

Unless the red truth is based on a system of belief, where Battler had already started doubting who his mother really was and therefore tripped on his words.

Or it could be something to do with him being Tohya?

Also, weren't homunculi discussed in EP3? Maybe they are humans but not necessarily people?
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Old 2012-04-25, 07:37   Link #28589
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Remembering Shannon in the third person and the sudden shift into Shannon's life

Could be explained if Yasuda misremembering things. That Yasuda remembers the events in the third person but not that they happened to Yasuda. Basically that certain events that Yasuda remembers them as "things that happened to someone else".

In fact that all traces of Yasuda is gone when Shannon becomes the main character of the witch's tale.
I think Shannon was nothing more than an imaginary friend at the time. If you notice, when she speaks nobody ever responds to her. Moreover, Yasu wasn't an actual name but a nickname stuck to that kid by the servants who teased it, so maybe Shannon is her actual blessed name which she adopted later on, when those older servants were all gone or something.

At any rate, I wouldn't put an imaginary friend past her/him.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Regardless, Beatrice is the problematic one here with her redefining of terms.
Yeah, I'll agree with you that it's kinda cheating, but it's not like she's taking the term 'murder' and changes its meaning to 'apple pie' and saying I committed murder=I baked an apple pie. She's using the tearm 'death' to specify the 'death' of a personality.

I mean, if you think about it, it's not that complicated. If a reader has already figured out Shkannon, then it must be ridiculously simple to them (that's how it was for me, at least). When Beatrice says Six people, Shannon, Kannon, Gohda and whoever else are dead, it makes you think, 'how exactly is a personality killed? Oooh...So that was the catch all along!'.


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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
Unless the red truth is based on a system of belief, where Battler had already started doubting who his mother really was and therefore tripped on his words.

Or it could be something to do with him being Tohya?

Also, weren't homunculi discussed in EP3? Maybe they are humans but not necessarily people?
You're overthinking this.
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Old 2012-04-25, 08:23   Link #28590
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Pursuant to the discussion that was here, then in the ep6 thread: Now we can finally put that nasty Logic Error business behind us once and for all.
Spoiler for EP6 Spoilers, Obviously:
Or maybe not.
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Old 2012-04-25, 09:32   Link #28591
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On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside, I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it."
From EP3, 1st twilight:

All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

From which I can conclude, that if some of them were not in fact physically dead, they still must have the wound.
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Old 2012-04-25, 10:21   Link #28592
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It's a strange red. It says there's a wound, but implies that the cause of the wound is faked in at least some of the victims.

It's an old wound from Yasu's fall as a baby. Zombie Kanon was poking at a hole in his chest, right?

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-04-25 at 23:12.
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Old 2012-04-25, 10:31   Link #28593
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That red wasn't translated accurately. Chronotrig posted a better phrasing of it at some point.
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Old 2012-04-25, 10:42   Link #28594
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
It's a strange red. It says there's a would, but implies that the cause of the wound is faked in at least some of the victims.

It's an old wound from Yasu's fall as a baby. Zombie Kanon was poking at a hole in his chest, right?
Yea, same as Kanon's "wound" in EP1, where the stake was inserted... with the difference that this "hole" was actually reliably observerd.


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That red wasn't translated accurately. Chronotrig posted a better phrasing of it at some point.
Do you recall what the overall difference of the translation was?
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Old 2012-04-25, 10:46   Link #28595
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Do you recall what the overall difference of the translation was?
The basic gist of it is "they all appeared to have fatal gunshot wounds."

In other words, it looked like they had wounds. Whether they actually did have wounds was not clear.
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Old 2012-04-25, 11:09   Link #28596
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It would be nice if the actual translation could be updated with things like that.
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Old 2012-04-25, 11:41   Link #28597
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It would be nice if the actual translation could be updated with things like that.
I was under the impression that the latest ep1-4 patch had done exactly that. Is that wrong?
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Old 2012-04-25, 12:18   Link #28598
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Well, the one I downloaded in October 2011 definitely still has that red phrased as "All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds that became fatal". Have they updated it since then?
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Old 2012-04-25, 12:21   Link #28599
LyricalAura
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I don't think it was ever fixed in the text.

Speaking of which, I wonder if they're still accepting corrections. I have a really long list of things from EP1 since I've been rereading it on the PS3.
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Old 2012-04-25, 14:46   Link #28600
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Pursuant to the discussion that was here, then in the ep6 thread: Now we can finally put that nasty Logic Error business behind us once and for all.
Spoiler for EP6 Spoilers, Obviously:
Or maybe not.
Wow! A most briliant solution, almost made me want to applaud. Though it's also based on the same logic of redefining terms.

By the way, since there's been some debade earlier about the red truth specifing Kanon and Shannon as dead in EP3, here's something interesting I came across by chance:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/dafuckz.jpg/

Seriously...
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