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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 16 Rating
Perfect 10 74 55.64%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 22.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 16.54%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-04-25, 22:55   Link #261
kk2extreme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_sora View Post

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Kirei facepalm, something tells me I am going to be disappointed
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Old 2012-04-25, 23:05   Link #262
ChronoReverse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordarrow View Post
The whole killing one to save ten, or hundred to save a thousand is complete bunk. More so, because its not possible to determine how many will be saved should you kill such and such. The butterfly effect comes to mind. A single small event can have multiple,varied, and unpredictable outcomes. This is also true for reality.For all we know killing such and such people would kill even more people than would be saved.
This is an even more bunk line of thinking than Kiritsugu's (which is pretty bad already). You can only examine what is in front of you after all.

If you're going to condemn Kiritsugu because there's a possibility that he's made a mistake then you might as well condemn the opposite for the same reason.



Your thoughts about checks and measures are absolutely correct though (with that said, superheros in literature tend to be vigilante in nature).

In any case, Kiritsugu is not a "good guy" and isn't supposed to be one. He can be, however, a sympathetic character who has went down the wrong path.
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Old 2012-04-26, 02:39   Link #263
jeroz
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I find it funny how people already forgot about the last servant that was ruthlessly murdered in a severely disadvantaged situation: Assassins.

That was war, backstabbing people is just bad taste :P
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Old 2012-04-26, 04:56   Link #264
Craxuan
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The true path of happiness, ironically, is to mind your own business WELL, and to mind someone else's business MODERATELY. Which sounds easy because that's what we're doing every day, but for some people who could not stand strangers suffering to accidents or murder or whatever and want to HELP them, could actually very likely cause a LARGER conflict, hence increasing the possibility of HIGHER casualties. Vice versa is also true of course, but well...

I suppose the last episode of Fate/Zero would explain it better. But to emphasis the point, love and help those you care, but screw those who are strangers MODERATELY. Lawl.
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Old 2012-04-26, 05:02   Link #265
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordarrow View Post
So what do we have in the end? A stand alone, uninhibited, assassin with supernatural powers and no regards for human life? I'd say a mass killer is a apt description for such a person. It is more chilling, that near the end he said he would stain all evils in the world in order to save it. So to answer a question whether or not he would cause a mass genocide. He sure would. Whats the lives of a couple million if you can save untold billions in the future? The real paradox is when he learns through his own personal life and experience that it is impossible everyone can be saved but yet he wants to save everyone through the grail forever. Oh the irony of his beliefs. He is an idealist pretending to be a pragmatist.
No offense, but I can only conclude you have quite a tunnel vision regarding Kiritsugu.
If he -really- didn't care about human life, he wouldn't even have such goal to begin with. Furthermore, he wouldn't even care making an arson warning to evacuate the building, which ultimately allowed Kayneth to be prepared.

Also, it is exactly because you can't save everyone that he bets everything on this war: the holy grail is to be said to grant any wish, and the fact it can materialize heroic spirit of such caliber is quite enough in term of proof, along with how the 3 main families are giving their all to reach it.

You are mixing up real life cirmcunstances with the fictional ones surrounding kiritsugu.
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Old 2012-04-26, 06:31   Link #266
Craxuan
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Huh. If the Holy Grail really does exactly as what it says (Although this one, well, watch next episode to know what happened to the Holy Grail) I wouldn't even worry about the cost, because all human logic is nullified when the wish is granted.
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Old 2012-04-26, 10:12   Link #267
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
In real life, sure. But the winner of this is said to get an omnipotent wish granting device. That means that, if his wish is granted, he would literally save everybody. It's not a "few thousand" he'd save, it'd be a "few billion".
More like a billion-quadrillion-zillion since it would save those in the future as well.
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Old 2012-04-26, 11:02   Link #268
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by Craxuan View Post
Huh. If the Holy Grail really does exactly as what it says (Although this one, well, watch next episode to know what happened to the Holy Grail) I wouldn't even worry about the cost, because all human logic is nullified when the wish is granted.
Could you stop hinting at event things from future episodes.
Because you keep doing it, it's starting to get annoying.

I already know how Fate/Zero is going to end because of Fate/Stay Night, but I don't need to know more.
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Old 2012-04-26, 15:08   Link #269
Ithekro
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"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few...or the one."

It is similar to the idea that by the deaths of about ten people, one could save six to seven billion lives in the present, perhaps untold billions in the future (and perhaps even billions in the past, depending on how the wish was granted).

And those roughly ten people are those fighting the Holy Grail War. Not the civilians on the outside. Not the other mages or church member....just those directly involved in the War. Kill those people to ensure a victory to ensure the wish can be made on the Grail. Even if that wish kills the person making the wish, because, to Kiritsugu, to goal of saving the many, outweights is own life and the lives of the few involved in this War.

But will it come to pass?

Being the series this is....likely not.
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Old 2012-04-26, 15:51   Link #270
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Being the series this is....
A prequel that's very much promoted as such, you mean?
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Old 2012-04-27, 11:24   Link #271
Qilin
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Ah, I'm a bit late to the part, but wow. This episode bluntly portrays Kiritsugu in all his anti-hero glory.

Well, anyway, the scene worked fine for me on the most part. While I don't necessarily agree with his view, I found his character sympathetic. It's not really hard to understand how he became that way. After failing for so many times to save others, he had become disillusioned from the notion that he can do so while remaining untainted by the blood of others.

In the first place, if the Grail is truly an omnipotent wish-granting device, it would make sense to do everything in his power to attain it if reaching it means being able saving the world. Of course, he is definitely one who takes pragmatism to the extreme, so his methods do seem violent and heartless.

On another note, I found it rather funny that Kayneth could still consider protecting his family's honor during his encounter with Kiritsugu when he just shot Risei shortly before after obtaining a command seal. That gesture pretty much places him in the same level as Kiritsugu.
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Old 2012-04-29, 21:47   Link #272
ChainLegacy
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Huh, from a pragmatic point of view I completely agreed with everything Kiritsugu had to say. Saber's responses sounded pretty stupid and idealistic by comparison.
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Old 2012-05-03, 23:08   Link #273
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16th War: End of Honor

In the annals of the ongoing Fourth Holy Grail War, Lancer will be most remembered and missed, but his end was the most humiliating that I cannot even fathom.

Lancer and Saber have few traits in common that made their chivalry so glorious and so in-depth.

The main traits is that they never got to be compatible with their Masters in terms of ideals and ways of life.

Saber being the King of Knights stands her ground equally in opposition to Emiya Kiritsugus' ideals. However, this is not the same for Lancer who bows before his Master Kayneth enduring all types of insults, and the mere mention of his infamous legend puts him at the verge of insanity. Interestingly, this Master-Servant relationship is 180° degrees inverted in the forms of Archer and Tokiomi, whom the latter bows to the King of Heroes in fear of losing the former's trust.

The little boy in me says that Saber's way of Knights is not wrong, as the guidelines are to be established to distinguish between good and evil. However, the adult me is realistic that the world doesn't operate that way, because it is mostly in shades of gray with a very few intermediate and little spots of white and black in between.
Honor and glory do not bring food to the table if the land itself becomes a literal hell on earth where the inhabitants are forced to do inhuman things to survive at subhuman environments.

If Kiritsugu behaves a murdering bastard for his quest to win the Holy Grail, he does so for a very pragmatic and rational reason. If he has to stain his hands when he feels is necessary for him to do so in order to win the Grail is to use it to prevent the never-ending cycle of bloodstain and hatred in human history repeating itself again and again.

I cannot come to hate Kiritsugu for what he did, but his manner on doings things his way not only put me on perspective but to truly frightened me.

So we're down to Five Masters and Four Servants.
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Old 2012-05-03, 23:37   Link #274
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Old 2012-05-04, 01:04   Link #275
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Kiritsugu's approach is the safest approach that any sane man would choose.
I wouldn't blow an entire building or a whole plane to target just one people in it, and I'd like to think I'm still sane.
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Old 2012-05-04, 01:27   Link #276
mAc Chaos
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Yeah I don't know why everybody is like "THIS IS HOW WE WOULD DO IT IRL" with Kiritsugu. People freaked out over Abu Ghraib and stuff like that but if it had a practical effect Kiritsugu would have moved into the place.

What do you think he would do if he found out that somehow, what Caster and his Master were doing was effective in achieving a goal of his?
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Old 2012-05-04, 02:06   Link #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I wouldn't blow an entire building or a whole plane to target just one people in it, and I'd like to think I'm still sane.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Yeah I don't know why everybody is like "THIS IS HOW WE WOULD DO IT IRL" with Kiritsugu. People freaked out over Abu Ghraib and stuff like that but if it had a practical effect Kiritsugu would have moved into the place.

What do you think he would do if he found out that somehow, what Caster and his Master were doing was effective in achieving a goal of his?
If you take things into context and examine the state of the War, you would see Kiritsugu could have made the situation so much more bloody. Instead, he always chose to execute battles as clean as possible without loose ends.

It could have been so, so, so much worse.

Last edited by Touko; 2012-05-04 at 02:22.
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Old 2012-05-04, 04:43   Link #278
erneiz_hyde
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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Spoiler:




If you take things into context and examine the state of the War, you would see Kiritsugu could have made the situation so much more bloody. Instead, he always chose to execute battles as clean as possible without loose ends.

It could have been so, so, so much worse.
Except Fate/Zero isn't IRL.

Kiritsugu would only pass as a delusional mass murderer and a terrorist IRL (and an efficient one at that). But, I get that Kiritsugu is being pragmatic about his actions and they do have justifications in universe. Let's put distinction between the two.

As a side point, I'll try to illustrate your view if brought upon the real world:
"Any country's soldier is a fool if they believe they fight for patriotism. They fight to live for the next battle, and to kill as many enemy and as efficiently as they can along the way. Patriotism was only invented to make them feel better about it; to make sense of the senseless."
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Old 2012-05-04, 11:28   Link #279
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Except Fate/Zero isn't IRL.

Kiritsugu would only pass as a delusional mass murderer and a terrorist IRL (and an efficient one at that). But, I get that Kiritsugu is being pragmatic about his actions and they do have justifications in universe. Let's put distinction between the two.

As a side point, I'll try to illustrate your view if brought upon the real world:
"Any country's soldier is a fool if they believe they fight for patriotism. They fight to live for the next battle, and to kill as many enemy and as efficiently as they can along the way. Patriotism was only invented to make them feel better about it; to make sense of the senseless."

Lol. Shounen logic.

This is a WAR.

The real world equivalent would be a war between nations and factions.

What do you do if your enemy holds a fortress or a bunker that is neigh impregnable? You blow it up with a cruise missile or Predator Drone.

Kiritsugu carries out the battle exactly as it should. And he was humane enough to minimize collateral damage.

This is not DBZ.

You are right this is not IRL, but real life wars are fought in the same manner, employing identical tactics.
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Old 2012-05-04, 12:32   Link #280
erneiz_hyde
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Lol. Shounen logic.

This is a WAR.

The real world equivalent would be a war between nations and factions.

What do you do if your enemy holds a fortress or a bunker that is neigh impregnable? You blow it up with a cruise missile or Predator Drone.

Kiritsugu carries out the battle exactly as it should. And he was humane enough to minimize collateral damage.

This is not DBZ.

You are right this is not IRL, but real life wars are fought in the same manner, employing identical tactics.
Um, would you please kindly point out which part of my post shows this "shounen logic"?
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