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Old 2012-04-23, 11:58   Link #81
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post

We've mostly seen Danzou at his worst, but my guess is that he was probably extremely competent and proved himself essential several times in the past (just that his means were very extreme). He also seems to carry some heavy influence over the village. Notice Tsunade wasn't about to take away his authority, even though she didn't like or trust him
Well, Shikaku called Danzou a fascist and psychopath in front of the Fire Country's leadership. Which is pretty damning and something you don't call someone with redeeming qualities. And since Shikaku represented the jonin, I would say he also spoke for them. Danzou was not liked. Yet Konoha's leadership did nothing about him.

Why did they willingly turn a blind eye toward him? You can argue he was needed since Danzou was doing a lot of dirty work for Konoha. Things Sandaime wouldn't do. He was following the ninja system and using ninja as tools for both Konoha's gain and his own. He didn't believe in the Will of Fire and that Konoha ninja were family. I would say Hiruzen even thought Danzou was a great asset on his own until he morphed into J. Edgar Hoover and was really running things. Remember, Hiruzen was the guy who still saw some good in Orochimaru and couldn't bring himself to kill him. Which ended up costing countless lives and Konoha dearly. He didn't have the best judgement.

And what did Golden Boy Minato do about Danzou? He was Hokage for about two years and apparently didn't do anything about Danzou either.
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Old 2012-04-23, 13:11   Link #82
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Sarutobi was always weak emotionally, he also spared Orochimaru because of his emotions. He tried to avoid conflict, to avoid people dying, since obviously he was neither a coward nor a weakling, so any conflict inside the village was not threatening him personally but his subordinates (ANBU, jounins, genins, everyone). Danzou was his childhood friend, so Danozu took full advantage of this and created his personal army and it seems he also was good at politics since he had the elders backing him even against the Uchiha clan.

I think calling these traits weaknesses is a matter of taste, i personally would definitely call these weaknesses because these later resulted in many tragedies (Orochimaru attacking Konoha, Danzou plotting against Konoha, etc.). It's like you save 100 lives today, but you risk that 1000 lives will be lost tomorrow. And it also leads to the corruption of the system to let people like Danzou live. As Orochimaru said to Sarutobi, he could have killed him 10 years before, when he discovered Orochi's treason, but as time passed Orochimaru became too strong. The same is true of Danzou, Sarutobi should have removed him from power or even killed him a long long time ago. Danzou had the time to create a strong army, and then killing Danzou became very risky, it would risk a civil war which the old hokage didn't want. Especially after the 4th hokage died, Sarutobi was too old to deal with both Danzou and the Uchiha, so he had to choose between the two. Minato himself was obviously under the influence of Sarutobi, and therefore in that short time that he was hokage he didn't think of getting rid of Danzou by force, despite that he was the only one who could have done it in a relatively painless way. But that was also Sarutobi's fault, to delay it until the 4th died and he was too old to do anything.

But in defense of the 3rd and 4th hokages we must also see that these times were very hard war times, children like Obito had to be sent to the war. In such war times the leaders focus on external enemies, they try to use every resource of the village, for which they accept that some people like Danzou, who can be used in a war, will do bad things and will use this chance to grow stronger. In a war often one can choose only between bad and worse, and if the destruction of Konoha is the worse, than the leader has to choose the bad.
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Old 2012-04-23, 20:31   Link #83
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Sarutobi was always weak emotionally, he also spared Orochimaru because of his emotions. He tried to avoid conflict, to avoid people dying, since obviously he was neither a coward nor a weakling, so any conflict inside the village was not threatening him personally but his subordinates (ANBU, jounins, genins, everyone). Danzou was his childhood friend, so Danozu took full advantage of this and created his personal army and it seems he also was good at politics since he had the elders backing him even against the Uchiha clan.

I think calling these traits weaknesses is a matter of taste, i personally would definitely call these weaknesses because these later resulted in many tragedies (Orochimaru attacking Konoha, Danzou plotting against Konoha, etc.). It's like you save 100 lives today, but you risk that 1000 lives will be lost tomorrow.
Madara was a brutal warlord who gouged out his own brother's eyes to preserve his own. Did that stop Shodaime reaching out the olive branch to form an alliance with a power-hungry tryant? And because Shodaime did that it led to Madara's rebellion and defeat, which led to his revenge with the Kyuubi, which lead to the Uchiha segregation, which lead to the coup, which lead to the massacre,etc....so that means Shodaime's responsible for Konoha's near destruction, the Uchicha massacre and the death of Naruto's mum and dad because he wanted to work towards peace with his enemy?

Every action has possible consequences, that includes acts of compassion, altuism and mercy. It's the basic M.O. of the heroes in Naruto to avoid hatred and paranoia but it doesn't always work out in the end (unless you're Naruto). Sarutobi letting Oro live is example of that. But just because sparing Oro had bad results, it doesn't mean taking the opposite approach is automatically the better decision. It's not like characters such as Hanzou, who deal with every possible threat with killing suffer better fates.

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Why did they willingly turn a blind eye toward him? You can argue he was needed since Danzou was doing a lot of dirty work for Konoha. Things Sandaime wouldn't do. He was following the ninja system and using ninja as tools for both Konoha's gain and his own. He didn't believe in the Will of Fire and that Konoha ninja were family. I would say Hiruzen even thought Danzou was a great asset on his own until he morphed into J. Edgar Hoover and was really running things. Remember, Hiruzen was the guy who still saw some good in Orochimaru and couldn't bring himself to kill him. Which ended up costing countless lives and Konoha dearly. He didn't have the best judgement.
We don't know their relationship was like. Yet, I don't think Hiruzen turned a blind eye a towards Danzou, if by that you mean he was being willfully ignorant of his nature. Just like Sarutobi recognized there was a dark side to Oro from the very start, I'm sure he would see that in Danzou but believe that he could still be a positive force within the village. Definitely, he should've kept the reigns on Danzou tight, especially after the Uchiha massacre, even if he did ultimately allow it to happen. Sarutobi ceded decisions to Danzou and the Elders that he didn't like. But that is part of leadership--not just doing whatever you want.

And Danzou exploited his authority horribly, but he never acted against the village until he started his Sharingan collection and saw a chance to grab the Hokage title from Tsunade. There was never any grounds to simply get rid of him, he had too much influence, knew too many secrets. It would be dangerous.
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Old 2012-04-23, 23:47   Link #84
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And Danzou exploited his authority horribly, but he never acted against the village until he started his Sharingan collection and saw a chance to grab the Hokage title from Tsunade.
I don't think this qualifies as exploiting neither.
Everything Danzou did was for the common good of the village. Him wanting to become the Hokage was for the reason that he thought he is the only adequate candidate and Tsunade was to weak as a leader.
He also loved his village, and was willing to do everything to protect it, without beeing bound by any morals.
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Old 2012-04-24, 00:51   Link #85
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Madara was a brutal warlord who gouged out his own brother's eyes to preserve his own. Did that stop Shodaime reaching out the olive branch to form an alliance with a power-hungry tryant?
You can't compare the two things, in case of Hashirama and Madara we have two independent clans which are enemies and are fighting so desperately that it threatens the existence of their clans. As i wrote in my post there are external and internal enemies, and there's a big difference. Madara was an external enemy, just like in the Konoha vs other village cases. Madara was a leader of his own clan who was completely independent from Hashirama, and the Uchiha were the biggest threat to the Senju.

After the two clans reached an agreement and Hashirama became the leader Madara has changed his mind, but his own clan turned against him, so he left the village. That's the opposite of Danzou, Danzou had his own private army and he never left the village. Furthermore Hashirama had no emotional connection to Madara, we can safely assume that as a leader he acted rationally. We also know that he did fight Madara before the alliance, and Madara survived, which means Madara was not spared or something like that.

My point was that the 3rd hokage was strong enough and had enough influence over his own vlllage and his ninja that he could have killed both Danzou and Orochimaru when it became clear that they are or will be a threat to the village, but he didn't do so because of his emotional connection to them. And a good leader must act rationally even if it means to have personally painful decisions. Of course there is the main character who is a "fool" that risks everything to save his friend Sasuke, that's definitely not a rationally good leader behavior But the author gets away easily with Naruto's actions because Naruto is not a grown up man who is a leader of a military organization and a lot of civilians, he is just a child who wants to save his friend.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Every action has possible consequences, that includes acts of compassion, altuism and mercy. It's the basic M.O. of the heroes in Naruto to avoid hatred and paranoia but it doesn't always work out in the end (unless you're Naruto). Sarutobi letting Oro live is example of that. But just because sparing Oro had bad results, it doesn't mean taking the opposite approach is automatically the better decision.
I was arguing that it was because of personal ties to these characters, not because of "altruism and mercy". We see how rational and cold Sarutobi is when it comes to other issues: sacrificing Neji's father who was an innocent man, and handling of the Uchiha case.
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Old 2012-04-24, 02:32   Link #86
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Sarutobi was always weak emotionally, he also spared Orochimaru because of his emotions. He tried to avoid conflict, to avoid people dying, since obviously he was neither a coward nor a weakling, so any conflict inside the village was not threatening him personally but his subordinates (ANBU, jounins, genins, everyone). Danzou was his childhood friend, so Danozu took full advantage of this and created his personal army and it seems he also was good at politics since he had the elders backing him even against the Uchiha clan.

I think calling these traits weaknesses is a matter of taste, i personally would definitely call these weaknesses because these later resulted in many tragedies (Orochimaru attacking Konoha, Danzou plotting against Konoha, etc.). It's like you save 100 lives today, but you risk that 1000 lives will be lost tomorrow. And it also leads to the corruption of the system to let people like Danzou live. As Orochimaru said to Sarutobi, he could have killed him 10 years before, when he discovered Orochi's treason, but as time passed Orochimaru became too strong. The same is true of Danzou, Sarutobi should have removed him from power or even killed him a long long time ago. Danzou had the time to create a strong army, and then killing Danzou became very risky, it would risk a civil war which the old hokage didn't want. Especially after the 4th hokage died, Sarutobi was too old to deal with both Danzou and the Uchiha, so he had to choose between the two. Minato himself was obviously under the influence of Sarutobi, and therefore in that short time that he was hokage he didn't think of getting rid of Danzou by force, despite that he was the only one who could have done it in a relatively painless way. But that was also Sarutobi's fault, to delay it until the 4th died and he was too old to do anything.

But in defense of the 3rd and 4th hokages we must also see that these times were very hard war times, children like Obito had to be sent to the war. In such war times the leaders focus on external enemies, they try to use every resource of the village, for which they accept that some people like Danzou, who can be used in a war, will do bad things and will use this chance to grow stronger. In a war often one can choose only between bad and worse, and if the destruction of Konoha is the worse, than the leader has to choose the bad.
I agree. The way the Third made his choices resulted into this giant mess.
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Old 2012-04-24, 09:55   Link #87
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I don't think this qualifies as exploiting neither.
Everything Danzou did was for the common good of the village. Him wanting to become the Hokage was for the reason that he thought he is the only adequate candidate and Tsunade was to weak as a leader.
He also loved his village, and was willing to do everything to protect it, without beeing bound by any morals.
Everything Danzou did was for his own self-interest and then rationalized into claiming being in charge would help Konoha whereas in truth litterally every single action we've seen Danzou take have harmed the village deeply.
That's the funny thing about Danzou, he saw himself as an utilitarist who didn't care about the means as long as he reached a favorable outcome but the consequences of his actions were terrible for Konoha all the time.
From his own perspective Danzou should have murdered himself for the sake of Konoha.

Oh and Sabaku Kyu, the first time (that we know off) that Danzou acted against the village was when he made a secret deal with Hanzou in order to seize power from Sarutobi... And created Pain in the process.
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Old 2012-04-24, 12:09   Link #88
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Everything Danzou did was for his own self-interest and then rationalized into claiming being in charge would help Konoha whereas in truth litterally every single action we've seen Danzou take have harmed the village deeply.
Hey now, Danzou offering to sacrifice himself for Team Tobirama may have had self-serving motives, but it didn't hurt anything!
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Old 2012-04-24, 16:16   Link #89
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Excellent flashback so far, Danzo really was an asshole so no surprises there.
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Old 2012-04-24, 20:32   Link #90
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You can't compare the two things, in case of Hashirama and Madara we have two independent clans which are enemies and are fighting so desperately that it threatens the existence of their clans. As i wrote in my post there are external and internal enemies, and there's a big difference. Madara was an external enemy, just like in the Konoha vs other village cases. Madara was a leader of his own clan who was completely independent from Hashirama, and the Uchiha were the biggest threat to the Senju.
Same thing just different circumstances. Hashirama wouldn't have extended the truce if he didn't have faith Madara had enough integrity to honor it. He was wrong. Both Hashirama and Hiruzen were allied with irredeemable villains and vainly hoped that they would be able to work with them for a peaceful future. In both cases, the villain spit on that notion and plot against them anyway

Quote:
My point was that the 3rd hokage was strong enough and had enough influence over his own vlllage and his ninja that he could have killed both Danzou and Orochimaru when it became clear that they are or will be a threat to the village, but he didn't do so because of his emotional connection to them.
Simply killing anyone you believe to be a threat in cold blood is not acting rationally. Hanzou went that route and ended up creating a powerful enemy who killed him and wiped out his entire family.

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I was arguing that it was because of personal ties to these characters, not because of "altruism and mercy". We see how rational and cold Sarutobi is when it comes to other issues: sacrificing Neji's father who was an innocent man, and handling of the Uchiha case.
Not true. Sandaime allowed those things to happen. In both cases, these were decisions reached by others (Danzou and the elders for the Uchiha, the Hyuuga main family in the death of Neji's father) and Hiruzen didn't interfere because he had little choice. He has always been reluctant to resort to killing if there's any possible alternative. And it's not just with people he has personal ties to. Even when he believed he was talking to the Kazekage (though it turned out be Oro) who betrayed their truce, unleashed his army on the village and was holding a knife to his throat, he tried talking with him and thought it wasn't too late avoid a war.

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Oh and Sabaku Kyu, the first time (that we know off) that Danzou acted against the village was when he made a secret deal with Hanzou in order to seize power from Sarutobi... And created Pain in the process.
You're correct as usual. Though I guess what I should've said is that Danzou hid his dirty dealings pretty well. So even though several didn't like him, there was never anything incriminating enough justify simply getting rid of him. We only recognize him as an obvious threat because we see behind the curtain as readers
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Old 2012-04-24, 23:55   Link #91
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You're correct as usual. Though I guess what I should've said is that Danzou hid his dirty dealings pretty well. So even though several didn't like him, there was never anything incriminating enough justify simply getting rid of him. We only recognize him as an obvious threat because we see behind the curtain as readers


But more seriously you're correct only up to a point : yes of course Danzou worked covertly but as I said it wasn't that much of a secret if Yamato knew about his method. If you remember none of the Kage trusted him and they saw him as the dark side of the ninja world which is telling when you think about what those guys have done themselves.

I mean, just take the killing orphans thing, can you honestly say that such a known fact would be accepted as the price of doing business by Sandaime given what we know of his character? I think not.
As often my point isn't to say that within the story Sandaime is supposed to be seen as a weak and ineffectual leader, it's that if you look at things logically it must be the case and since it doesn't seem to be the author's intent then there is a problem. Hence why I think that Danzou and Sarutobi should have been the same character : A man who looked like this perfect loving grand father and genuinely so for his own people but who also was the ruthless cold blooded warlord who had done terrible evils for the "greater good" of his village.
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Old 2012-04-25, 06:43   Link #92
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That crystal ball causes so many plot holes...

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But more seriously you're correct only up to a point : yes of course Danzou worked covertly but as I said it wasn't that much of a secret if Yamato knew about his method. If you remember none of the Kage trusted him and they saw him as the dark side of the ninja world which is telling when you think about what those guys have done themselves.
Well most of the Kage were mistrustful of all the others. There was plenty of finger-pointing going all around. And like you say, the ones doing most of it were the ones who had committed the most questionable acts in the past.


Quote:
As often my point isn't to say that within the story Sandaime is supposed to be seen as a weak and ineffectual leader, it's that if you look at things logically it must be the case and since it doesn't seem to be the author's intent then there is a problem. Hence why I think that Danzou and Sarutobi should have been the same character : A man who looked like this perfect loving grand father and genuinely so for his own people but who also was the ruthless cold blooded warlord who had done terrible evils for the "greater good" of his village.
That would've been very interesting. Generally, I also prefer characters who have moral ambiguity rather than just have everything in black & white. But given Sandaime's role, it's hard for me to imagine him like that. There's still some awkwardness in accepting that Itachi was really a "good guy", when he was shown being such a sadistic bastard to Sasuke in the past (though Kishi did his best to rationalize that). Doing the opposite with Sandaime and saying "oh, he wasn't really so good after all"... that would be kinda weird too. He was the guy who was really the first prime example of the Will of Fire.

I dunno. Just taking up the time... there's no chapter this week right? Golden week?
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Old 2012-04-25, 13:56   Link #93
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Same thing just different circumstances. Hashirama wouldn't have extended the truce if he didn't have faith Madara had enough integrity to honor it. He was wrong. Both Hashirama and Hiruzen were allied with irredeemable villains and vainly hoped that they would be able to work with them for a peaceful future. In both cases, the villain spit on that notion and plot against them anyway
Completely diferent circumstances, thus it can't be the same thing. An internal enemy who is commiting treason is totally different from an external enemy who is just fighting for the sake of his own clan.
Also it seems to me that we are talking about a different thing: i was referring to what makes someone a good and rational leader, one can be a good leader even if he is not a "good" guy. Before the villages were created it was mostly chaos, clans were fighting against each other constantly. In these circumstances Madara can't be defined as evil by someone who does the same thing for his own clan. Of course if someone were inside the clan, from his viewpoint Madara is evil, because he forced them to kill each other to gain the MS/EMS eyes. Hashirama was doing the logical thing, end the constant fighting between the two top clans before they kill each other and vanish. The situation would have been similar if Madara secretly took control over his clan and began acting on his own will and at some point Hashirama would notice it but not do anything. But this never happened.

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Simply killing anyone you believe to be a threat in cold blood is not acting rationally. Hanzou went that route and ended up creating a powerful enemy who killed him and wiped out his entire family.
Again it's completely different. Being a traitor or spy is much worse than being some enemy. You can make peace with enemies, you can even become allies after some time passed or if a common enemy came. But there's a good reason why spies and traitors are killed, while enemies are just captured. Danzou was a high level official who betrayed the village many times.

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Not true. Sandaime allowed those things to happen. In both cases, these were decisions reached by others
A good leader can't allow such important decisions to be made by others, that why he is the leader. And if he is the leader he takes the responsability anyway, no matter who decided to do it. If you are the leader of a military organization and you don't know that your soldiers are killing some people somewhere then something's wrong.

Now, i'm not saying that Sarutobi was a bad leader, i was just saying that he was not a perfect leader, he had his weakness just like every other leader has.
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Old 2012-04-25, 18:11   Link #94
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Completely diferent circumstances, thus it can't be the same thing. An internal enemy who is commiting treason is totally different from an external enemy who is just fighting for the sake of his own clan.
Also it seems to me that we are talking about a different thing: i was referring to what makes someone a good and rational leader, one can be a good leader even if he is not a "good" guy.
Basic point: Hashirama and Hiruzen worked with men who couldn't be trusted. Yes, Hashirama had a logical reason to make an alliance with Madara. But still, Madara was his mortal enemy. Their clans spent generations killing each other. So Hashirama either completely failed to realize that Madara's hatred might surpass desire for harmony, or he decided it was worth it in the name of peace.

Flip side-- Hiruzen either failed to see Danzou's true nature or recognized it but still saw Danzou's potential to serve the village. This idea that he was too emotionally weak to kill Danzou for the good of Konoha because he hesitated when he had the chance to kill Oro doesn't make sense to me. Danzou never openly acted against the village. He wasn't a named spy or traitor. There might've been suspicions, but Sarutobi wasn't going to kill Danzou out of mistrust or fear.

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A good leader can't allow such important decisions to be made by others, that why he is the leader. And if he is the leader he takes the responsability anyway, no matter who decided to do it.
But that wasn't your point. You argued that Sarutobi was only reluctant about killing when it came to those he had personal ties to. Then you used the Hyuuga and Uchiha incident as examples of how he's cold and calculating regarding everything else. I pointed out how in both these cases, Sarutobi met with consul who arrived at plans that involved sacrificing innocent lives. He didn't support these plans, but recognized that stopping them would cost more lives so he allowed them to be carried out.

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Now, i'm not saying that Sarutobi was a bad leader, i was just saying that he was not a perfect leader, he had his weakness just like every other leader has.
Yes. We're just in disagreement what his weaknesses actually were. I don't really see it as an issue of being "too emotional". I think his diplomatic attitude was probably far more beneficial to the village than it was harmful. But still, he was human and sometimes it lead to consequences.

But yeah, I can agree. All the things we're finding out about Danzou do make it seem like Sandaime let him get away with everything.
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Old 2012-04-25, 23:00   Link #95
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new chapter this week?
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Old 2012-04-25, 23:06   Link #96
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new chapter this week?
No! It's golden week in Japan.
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Old 2012-04-26, 12:27   Link #97
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Basic point: Hashirama and Hiruzen worked with men who couldn't be trusted.
"can't be trusted" cannot be a reason to kill someone, you need evidence. Someone either betrays you or not, if he doesn't betray you then why would you act against him? Sarutobi had evidence that Orochimaru betrayed him and the village, but he didn't get rid of him. Same goes for Danzou, but of course the author could say that he didn't realize that Danzou was betraying him, but one must be blind not to realize what is Danzou doing.

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But that wasn't your point. You argued that Sarutobi was only reluctant about killing when it came to those he had personal ties to. Then you used the Hyuuga and Uchiha incident as examples of how he's cold and calculating regarding everything else. I pointed out how in both these cases, Sarutobi met with consul who arrived at plans that involved sacrificing innocent lives. He didn't support these plans, but recognized that stopping them would cost more lives so he allowed them to be carried out.
The root of our disagreement on this matter seems to be that we think differently of what a leader is responsible for. I think in such important matters where the village's survival was at stake the leader had make all decisions and take all responsability. It seems to me that your view is that the leadership of the village is divided between the elders and Sarutobi is simply the most important among them, and therefore he doesn't take responsability for all decisions and actions. My assumption is that a military organization must have one undisputed leader, and i think the kage title gives exactly that. And in such a case the leader must make all important decisions and take responsability for any action his army takes.
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Old 2012-04-26, 15:56   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
The root of our disagreement on this matter seems to be that we think differently of what a leader is responsible for. I think in such important matters where the village's survival was at stake the leader had make all decisions and take all responsability. It seems to me that your view is that the leadership of the village is divided between the elders and Sarutobi is simply the most important among them, and therefore he doesn't take responsability for all decisions and actions. My assumption is that a military organization must have one undisputed leader, and i think the kage title gives exactly that. And in such a case the leader must make all important decisions and take responsability for any action his army takes.
ideally it is best for a military org. to have 1 undisputed leader as you put it and is one of the major points of the Art of War. however in most real life situations we see political interference with the leaders which usually screws things up. in naruto, danzo seemed to have a lot of sway not just in konoha's political circle, but with the daimyo and the politicians of the fire country. the hokage is not above them when it comes to some matters, even though it could be argued that he should be as Sun Tsu put it. of course the manga doesn't get that in depth about danzo's relation with the fire country politicians but their acceptance of him as hokage is some proof that they liked his style (or were genjutsu'd, either way). point being that sarutobi didn't have free range to do whatever he wanted in terms of danzo and neither did minato or tsunade since there was most likely political pressure on them to keep him around.

i also agree that sarutobi was a pacifist to a fault and was endlessly trying to ally with people who were nonredeemable like orochi and the false kazekage (before he was revealed to be orochi)

even though it doesn't fit in with the preferred ideology of the series, danzo's way was much more suitable for realistic ninjas, making emotionless killing machines who carry out missions at any cost and protect the village at any cost. depending on the daimyo's leadership qualities, he may very well prefer this methodology to sarutobi, kakashi's or naruto's compassion. its not very ninja like, however much we like them. but of course danzo would have had a hard time explaining the outcome of the summit where he made enemies out of every village in an arrogant and stupid fashion
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Old 2012-04-26, 18:52   Link #99
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n
It seems to me that your view is that the leadership of the village is divided between the elders and Sarutobi is simply the most important among them, and therefore he doesn't take responsability for all decisions and actions. My assumption is that a military organization must have one undisputed leader, and i think the kage title gives exactly that. And in such a case the leader must make all important decisions and take responsability for any action his army takes.
My point isn't that Sarutobi wasn't responsible. It's that the course of action in both your examples weren't plans that he came up with or morally supported. However, he made the decision to let them be carried out because he knew what was at stake. The job of a leader is to weigh all options and make decision based off that--not say "Screw you. I'm in charge. We do it my way". This is why leaders have counselors and advisers; to gain different perspectives. They're useless if the leader never listens to them.

Think of it this way: Imagine a mother who has terminally ill child in a coma on life support. On her own, she might never make the decision to end her child's life. But if doctors and nurses tell her there's no chance of recovery, that the child will be suffering and that if he were to die his organs could save the lives of other kids... then she might make the decision to let go and allow them to pull the plug. It would be hard, but really there isn't much alternative.

When I say Sarutobi allowed the Hyuuga and Uchiha incidents to happen I'm saying he was convinced he was left with no other choice but to heed the consul of others and allow what needed to be done to be done. I can't explain it any further than that.

Really, I see where you're coming from. Because I used to believe Sarutobi's actions in these matters was very cold, but it made more sense after more was revealed about what happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314
danzo's way was much more suitable for realistic ninjas, making emotionless killing machines who carry out missions at any cost and protect the village at any cost.
You mean "more stereotypical" ninjas. The idea that ninja were perfectly-conditioned emotionless killing-machines is pop culture too. They were largely used as spies.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2012-04-26 at 19:02.
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Old 2012-04-26, 19:16   Link #100
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
This is why leaders have counselors and advisers; to gain different perspectives. They're useless if the leader never listens to them.
Except of course that it's not what happened. Sarutobi wasn't given counsel he didn't like but still listened to. He was told what's what, disagreed and it happened anyway because his "counselors" took the decision, outvoted him and acted upon it.

And I can't help but notice you carefully never adressed the fact that Danzou brainwashed and butchered war orphans to build his private army (which is something known by the characters and not just the readers) so I will ask again : how do you reconcile this with Sarutobi's character? Do you think he also "let that be carried out because he knew what was at stake"?
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