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Old 2012-04-25, 15:22   Link #28601
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside, I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it."
Well, in Ep 7 Genji said how he hurried to carry the baby to Nanjo and then they talk about how they didn't though the baby would survive and how it was amazing it did, implying the baby was hurt and yet managed to survive.
Sure, they could have been lying, though I think if that's the case the lie would be unnecessary. Why to tell us there was damage if there was none?

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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
@Golden_dust: But surely there must be some sort of regulation? In episode 4, Battler tries to proclaim his own ancestry and chokes up on his own words and proceeds to later on get locked in a logic error for stating contradicting truths.

Unless the red truth is based on a system of belief, where Battler had already started doubting who his mother really was and therefore tripped on his words.

Or it could be something to do with him being Tohya?

Also, weren't homunculi discussed in EP3? Maybe they are humans but not necessarily people?
There's probably some regulation because even Beato chokes on a red truth, which means she should have stumbled in one rule (that or that scene was actually someone else's fantasy. This someone else is in a highter plane and from his perspective Beato is just a piece so he/she decides how red truth work and if Beato can get around it or not. Due to the same reason Ange could use magic in Beato's golden land where no other magic apart from Beato's is supposed to exist...).

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Pursuant to the discussion that was here, then in the ep6 thread: Now we can finally put that nasty Logic Error business behind us once and for all.
Spoiler for EP6 Spoilers, Obviously:
Or maybe not.
This is awesome!
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Old 2012-04-25, 16:41   Link #28602
Kealym
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
From EP3, 1st twilight:

All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

From which I can conclude, that if some of them were not in fact physically dead, they still must have the wound.
I'm ... not sure how this is a reply to me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, in Ep 7 Genji said how he hurried to carry the baby to Nanjo and then they talk about how they didn't though the baby would survive and how it was amazing it did, implying the baby was hurt and yet managed to survive.
Sure, they could have been lying, though I think if that's the case the lie would be unnecessary. Why to tell us there was damage if there was none?
Okay, I should be more specific - I won't deny that the baby was probably injured, but I think a complete recovery was made, and Yasu's body as she has it is the SAME it would've been if she DIDN'T fall off the cliff, so, the same exact body that Lion has. What I'm refuting is the idea that it's some "terrible would caused by the fall" that causes/feeds into Yasu's self-esteem and self-image problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Pursuant to the discussion that was here, then in the ep6 thread: Now we can finally put that nasty Logic Error business behind us once and for all.
Spoiler for EP6 Spoilers, Obviously:
Or maybe not.
I'd say that's a bit beyond "unsporting".
But the final line nearly had me in tears, man. MARVELOUS. XD
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Old 2012-04-25, 17:49   Link #28603
ErenselTheJester
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Yo, guys, what's up? If you'll excuse my intervention, I would like to make a final major theory regarding the nature of the game and the rules that define it. I shall do so in summary because the theory is quite long. To give you a heads- up though, it is more than likely redundant for the most part (at least for some of you), however I made it so that the game could be understood since solving it is a much more difficult matter- one that I intend to indulge at a later date. Even though my theory isn't meant for solving the game, I'll use Blue and Red to provide evidence for my points.

First off...

The Gestalt Definiton
Umineko can be defined as a series of possible scenarios of the same murder event of Rokkenjima whose origin can only be seen by solving the various scenarios through the use of logic and mystery- solving techniques. It carries aspects of a murder mystery, kakera, and logic debate, and understanding these aspects is key to solving the game. Naturally, all these aspects are only understood at the Meta level.

The Game (logic debate) aspects take the form of debates regarding the epistemology of the debaters. One proposes an interpretation of the event, the other provides another, and both try to dominate the other's perspective. Their interpretations are given in the form of Blue Truth. Naturally, facts must be given and these facts are shown in the form of Red Truth (which also takes the form of rules). The Gold Truth are personal, undeniable perspectives or guarantees which can only be given if one fully understands the game.

As a Murder Mystery, though not outright, Umineko clarifies that Knox's Decalogue applies (even though the possibility that it doesn't is still considerable). Because of this, the rules of the Decalogue are given in the form of Red Truth, making them law. Van Dine is also hinted at being used, though only one of its rules have been used.

Now, the Kakera perspective of it is shown through the fact that the story is the telling of multiple versions of the same Rokkenjima Incident. As such, the witch Bernkastel hints at multiple other versions, but the ones we see are seemingly the closest to the real event (R- Prime).

So, any differing view on Umineko, regarding these perspectives, is really finalized by the fact that Umineko is mixture of these aspects. However, like any game, you must understand the rules in order to solve it and, as such, Umineko must be solved by understanding these aspects.

The Rules
Naturally, like any game, Umineko has rules to follow. These rules, however, differ from the traditional standard in that they serve two purposes: to create games and aid in solving them. Generally, rules are meant to limit and define what the players can and cannot do. However, Umineko's rules don't do that. Instead, they unify the aspects above in order to allow creation of different possibilities that seem similar to each other (excluding the obvious of course) and, at the same time, aid in figuring out the truth of each possibility to get to the original Incident. As a Kakera, these rules are meant for game creation. As a Mystery, these rules help in finding the culprit. As a Game, these help to form the best kind of argument.

As such, these rules must reflect the Game's truth which is personified in the Culprit of the murders. Thus, the rules reflect the who, how, and why, traditional of murder mysteries. And because she is the form of the Culprit, all these rules reflect Beatrice in some way. Her motive and processes are described in these rules and are, at the same time, the construction of the different games.

Rule X: The Why- Battler's Sin) Ushiromiya Battler has a sin. Because of your sin, people die. Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die.

Rule Y: The How- The Golden Land/Hidden Gold) From what I can tell from Bernkastel's Letter, the only source of info that we have regarding the rules, the Hidden Gold is what allows Beatrice to do what she is able to do, she's the Golden Witch after all- The gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. Naturally, she is able to use the gold to influence and persuade people to do what she needs them to do.

Rule Z: The Who) I cannot provide anything definite from the game, except EP6 (specifically the Love Duel and Logic Error) and EP7. Otherwise, I shall refer to Kylon's Final Culprit Theory and the YaShkanontrice Theory for this rule.

Oh, btw, that video was hilarious!
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Old 2012-04-25, 18:54   Link #28604
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magic in Beato's golden land where no other magic apart from Beato's is supposed to exist
I always thought that implied that there was not magic being performed.
Beato's magic could not revive him.
No other magic could exist there. (or was that should...)
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Old 2012-04-26, 04:13   Link #28605
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The line is interrupted by both white and choking; The red relevant is magic could not revive Sakutarou. The only descriptor or article to "magic" is "my", which is in white.
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Old 2012-04-26, 06:19   Link #28606
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Ah, so that still supports me, no magic
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Old 2012-04-26, 06:30   Link #28607
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Yep, no magic. It's been implied that Sakutarou was a mass-produced stuffed animal and wasn't actually handmade by Rosa. So, yeah, that wasn't magic at all....or, was it?
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Old 2012-04-26, 07:19   Link #28608
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Hey why is Natsuhi seperated from the other adults in the openings? It's like ruling her out of the group which could be capable of the murders?
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Old 2012-04-26, 07:24   Link #28609
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
On a completely unrelated note, I've been reading alot of blogs by peeps who consider themselves non-binary, in some way, regarding their gender. Proper terms and technicalities aside, I think the general way we seem to generally consider Yasu's gender/sex may be a bit skewed. Well, basically I'm thinking that falling off the cliff didn't cause ANY real physical damage to her body at all, and Genji being able to bullkshit 3 years off of her age is a combination of both the person being naturally small and "don't think about it too hard, like you don't think about all the people that had to have been physically involved in building Kuwadorian yet never spoke to the public about it."
From EP3, 1st twilight:

All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!

From which I can conclude, that if some of them were not in fact physically dead, they still must have the wound.
I'm ... not sure how this is a reply to me?
It means that she really got the injury and it did not heal. How else could they have "a wound that resembles a gunshot", although they are alive? Since it was said in red that they have the wound it must be there, however the cause is unknown, because it only resembles a gunshot wound. You can also see that both Shanon and Kanon always have a hat on, probably to hide the wound.
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Old 2012-04-26, 07:44   Link #28610
Kuroberus
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
It means that she really got the injury and it did not heal. How else could they have "a wound that resembles a gunshot", although they are alive? Since it was said in red that they have the wound it must be there, however the cause is unknown, because it only resembles a gunshot wound. You can also see that both Shanon and Kanon always have a hat on, probably to hide the wound.
Kanon's Casuals don't show him with a hat on...

And does "being eaten by demons and went to hell" mean that someone died by the explosion of the island?

Last edited by Kuroberus; 2012-04-26 at 08:24.
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Old 2012-04-26, 10:36   Link #28611
Oroboro
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yep, no magic. It's been implied that Sakutarou was a mass-produced stuffed animal and wasn't actually handmade by Rosa. So, yeah, that wasn't magic at all....or, was it?

I was under the impression that Rosa felt bad and made a new Sakutarou and was going to give it to Maria during the conference, but accidentally forgot it on the boat.
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Old 2012-04-26, 12:29   Link #28612
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
@Golden_dust: But surely there must be some sort of regulation? In episode 4, Battler tries to proclaim his own ancestry and chokes up on his own words and proceeds to later on get locked in a logic error for stating contradicting truths.

Unless the red truth is based on a system of belief, where Battler had already started doubting who his mother really was and therefore tripped on his words.

Or it could be something to do with him being Tohya?
One theory I had is that every red truth is all written by Beatrice as she is the "personification of the rules". That basically the Game Master and Territory Lord knows all of the red and can freely edit it.

Although that might be over-thinking it too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I think Shannon was nothing more than an imaginary friend at the time. If you notice, when she speaks nobody ever responds to her. Moreover, Yasu wasn't an actual name but a nickname stuck to that kid by the servants who teased it, so maybe Shannon is her actual blessed name which she adopted later on, when those older servants were all gone or something.

At any rate, I wouldn't put an imaginary friend past her/him.
Of course, I have thought of the whole imaginary friend aspect.

Although an imaginary friend does not really account for the sudden shift. Think about it, the story goes like

-Yasu goes to work at Rokukenjima
-talks about Shannon in the third person
-wants to be a witch
-dissapears completely
-Shannon takes the place of Yasu as the centerpiece in the tale

Why is the "imaginary friend" suddenly the main character all of the sudden? Isn't the imaginary character usually the side character?

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yep, no magic. It's been implied that Sakutarou was a mass-produced stuffed animal and wasn't actually handmade by Rosa. So, yeah, that wasn't magic at all....or, was it?
Despite what Ange found. What I never understood why the a stuffed animal vessel of Sakutarou was necessary. We seen that Ange could talk with Maria/Sakutarou /the stakes without any physical vessel beyond perhaps a book.

All Ange really needed to do was remind Maria that Sakutarou is alive regardless of its physical vessel or lack of one. In fact that in the "magic ending" that Ange later writes books about Sakutarou does prove the point that to pass on that magic a physical vessel beyond perhaps a book is not required.
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Old 2012-04-26, 13:18   Link #28613
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Despite what Ange found. What I never understood why the a stuffed animal vessel of Sakutarou was necessary. We seen that Ange could talk with Maria/Sakutarou /the stakes without any physical vessel beyond perhaps a book.
Vessels give strength to the magical concepts. It's all symbolism. Maria saw Sakutarou die. Violently. By the very person that gave him existence. It's an emotional block difficult to overcome without a vessel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
All Ange really needed to do was remind Maria that Sakutarou is alive regardless of its physical vessel or lack of one. In fact that in the "magic ending" that Ange later writes books about Sakutarou does prove the point that to pass on that magic a physical vessel beyond perhaps a book is not required.
Actually, I recently ran over that Golden Land scene in EP4 again, and I was thinking about how it connected to the Yukari ending in EP8 as well. It makes you wonder which of Ange's worlds that particular scene in the Golden Land with Beatrice and Maria actually represents.

EDIT:

In fact, it fits with the Yukari ending a lot better I think. It makes a lot more sense if Ange moves on from Maria's death by writing about ("resurrecting") Sakutarou, rather than by just finding Sakutarou dolls somewhere.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-04-26 at 13:33.
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Old 2012-04-26, 14:27   Link #28614
goldendust
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Vessels give strength to the magical concepts. It's all symbolism. Maria saw Sakutarou die. Violently. By the very person that gave him existence. It's an emotional block difficult to overcome without a vessel.
Although didn't Maria create Sakutarou, not Rosa?

Indeed that symbolism is important but I do attribute that Maria's inability to keep Sakutarou alive is more attributed to her losing sight of what magic was about. That her hatred of her mother filled her with different kind of anti-good magic toxin.

Quote:

In fact, it fits with the Yukari ending a lot better I think. It makes a lot more sense if Ange moves on from Maria's death by writing about ("resurrecting") Sakutarou, rather than by just finding Sakutarou dolls somewhere.
I think that it fits better as well.
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Old 2012-04-26, 15:20   Link #28615
Captain Bluebeard
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Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
I was under the impression that Rosa felt bad and made a new Sakutarou and was going to give it to Maria during the conference, but accidentally forgot it on the boat.
Wow, that was also my very first theory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
One theory I had is that every red truth is all written by Beatrice as she is the "personification of the rules". That basically the Game Master and Territory Lord knows all of the red and can freely edit it.
Well, that would render all of the red completely meaningless, right?

Quote:
Why is the "imaginary friend" suddenly the main character all of the sudden? Isn't the imaginary character usually the side character?
I believe 'Shannon' wasn't just an imaginary friend created by Yasu to comfort herself in her loneliness. It's made clear that it was what she aspired to be, she always says she dreamed about becoming like Shannon, a popular girl that everyone likes and a reliable servant. And so, when she conquers the realm of magic, she modifies the world to 'become' it, and that must explain why Shannon, who is described as very efficient and reliable in Yasu's narration suddenly becomes a forgetful clutz. And that also supports the theory that 'Shannon' is Yasuda's actual blessed name.

Quote:
Although didn't Maria create Sakutarou, not Rosa?

Indeed that symbolism is important but I do attribute that Maria's inability to keep Sakutarou alive is more attributed to her losing sight of what magic was about. That her hatred of her mother filled her with different kind of anti-good magic toxin.
Do not think too much into this, let's just put it like this. Maria believed Sakutarou was her friend and that he existed. Then she sees her mother chop his head off, and he dies. Beatrice can't revive him. And that's all there is to it.

Your point about hatred producing the toxin is an interesting one, though I'd rather believe Maria's magic had some meaning and therefore she did love her mama.
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Old 2012-04-26, 15:26   Link #28616
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Okay, I should be more specific - I won't deny that the baby was probably injured, but I think a complete recovery was made, and Yasu's body as she has it is the SAME it would've been if she DIDN'T fall off the cliff, so, the same exact body that Lion has. What I'm refuting is the idea that it's some "terrible would caused by the fall" that causes/feeds into Yasu's self-esteem and self-image problems.
Personally I've always wondered about this terrible wound.
From the way the scene is described you would expect the maid to fall on her head. Now, either she keep on holding the baby through the fall and this is what shielded the baby (assuming she just didn't crumble over the baby) or, more likely, she let the baby go in a desperate attempt to grab something and, if the baby was lucky, he/she fell on her, always falling on his head (heaviest part of his/her body and at that age he/she couldn't really turn).
The chance the baby fell on his/her lower half is rather low.
At that age a stab wound caused by a sharp rock serious enough to cause body damage should also produce enough blood loss to kill the baby.

So hum... I've always been sceptical about it.

Though it's possible that the fall damaged Yasu's brain in such a way it couldn't send the hormonal signals that would allow Yasu to enter into puberty. In this way there would be no visible scar but she would still have a body 'uncapable of love'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oroboro View Post
I was under the impression that Rosa felt bad and made a new Sakutarou and was going to give it to Maria during the conference, but accidentally forgot it on the boat.
The PS version had Ange find a bag full of Sakutaro... implying that it wasn't handmade at all. Though, if you've love for Rosa, you can say it's a coincidence that Sakutaro looked like those toys (maybe the resemblance isn't that marked or Rosa merely copied an already existing model) or that those toys were mass produced after the Rokkenjima incident as 'gadgets' for the witch hunters or also that Rosa created the first Sakutaro then, as Maria seemed to like it, she set it into mass production in hope to gain something from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
One theory I had is that every red truth is all written by Beatrice as she is the "personification of the rules". That basically the Game Master and Territory Lord knows all of the red and can freely edit it.
The problem is that Beato, GM for EP 4, shocked on a red she was trying to say. So, unless Ange stole form her the chair of GM, she didn't know all the reds...

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Of course, I have thought of the whole imaginary friend aspect.

Although an imaginary friend does not really account for the sudden shift. Think about it, the story goes like

-Yasu goes to work at Rokukenjima
-talks about Shannon in the third person
-wants to be a witch
-dissapears completely
-Shannon takes the place of Yasu as the centerpiece in the tale

Why is the "imaginary friend" suddenly the main character all of the sudden? Isn't the imaginary character usually the side character?
Yasu's body became the 'vessel' for her immaginary friend.
Actually it's more complicate than this.
'Shannon' wasn't just an immaginary friend but also a role model, a superego, what Yasu longed to become and who had a look that, more or less, matched Yasu. So Shannon and Yasu were already supposed to fuse into one when Yasu were to become like 'Shannon' and probably, hadn't Yasu discovered she didn't really want to become 'Shannon', things would have gone smoothly, 'Shannon, the imaginary friend' would have been 'suppressed' and Yasu would have become who she wanted to be.

Instead things go differently. Yasu realizes she wishes to be someone else but this time her wish is more troublesome. She rejects living like Shannon but can't escape it so she creates a world inside herself where her true self can be a witch and do as she pleases.

It's not big deal at first as it's more or less an innocent fantasy but then I fear the difference between who she wanted to be and who she was grew as well as her troubles. Even though she's Shannon she doesn't acknowledge herself as such and prefers to view Shannon as someone else for which her body plays as vessel (no, she's not a second personality, more like a role she has to play in front of everyone else to whom she gave a more interesting background, a bit like Maria voicing Sakutaro's thoughts). Even though she feels she's Beatrice she's not acknowledged by anyone else as such (at first) and her look doesn't even match with the Beato in her mind (that's why Beato has troubles with mirrors while Shannon doesn't).

Our confession presents Shannon as devoted to Beato and Beato seems to be the 'master' of Shannon and Kanon, though not even Beato is likely the true Yasu and, in fact, in EP 7, there seems to be an extra person rearranging Beato and Shannon's feelings... the one ChickBeato calls 'mother'.
Yasu is probably a mix of all the characters she created as she assigned to each of them part of her feelings and characteristics.

The most likely combination is a maid with more or less the look and physical abilities of Shannon (breasts put aside), more or less the anger of Kanon and more or less the character of Beato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Despite what Ange found. What I never understood why the a stuffed animal vessel of Sakutarou was necessary. We seen that Ange could talk with Maria/Sakutarou /the stakes without any physical vessel beyond perhaps a book.
Basically it's a rule that Maria created and that only Maria could re-write to revive HER Sakutaro. Ange doesn't need the plushie as vessel, she, at first, uses the diary and then she's able to do it even without it.

Note that Maria created Sakutaro's soul before having his vessel in hands so theoretically she too could have done without it.

So the vessel is necessary only as long as Maria deems it necessary.
However for Maria that vessel was a conditio sine wua non Sakutaro could exist and she saw that vessel being destroyed in a rather traumatic way. She then decided that, with the loss of the vessel Sakutaro was dead, making him dead as long as the vessel wasn't recovered or she were to change her mind.

Maria is also very young though and she likely needed the vessel, differently from Yasu who created some of her friends just taking a vessel as model but not having it 'fuse' with the soul so that vessel and immaginary friend are often two separate things and killing/losing the vessel won't mean losing the imaginary friend, nor the vessel needs to perform as the imaginary friend (Shannon and Kanon being the only exception as they use a human body as vessel and are tied to it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Vessels give strength to the magical concepts. It's all symbolism. Maria saw Sakutarou die. Violently. By the very person that gave him existence. It's an emotional block difficult to overcome without a vessel.
That too, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Actually, I recently ran over that Golden Land scene in EP4 again, and I was thinking about how it connected to the Yukari ending in EP8 as well. It makes you wonder which of Ange's worlds that particular scene in the Golden Land with Beatrice and Maria actually represents.

EDIT:

In fact, it fits with the Yukari ending a lot better I think. It makes a lot more sense if Ange moves on from Maria's death by writing about ("resurrecting") Sakutarou, rather than by just finding Sakutarou dolls somewhere.
Funny enough I had the same idea though I'm still pondering over at Ange's world.
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Old 2012-04-27, 06:14   Link #28617
Kealym
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
It means that she really got the injury and it did not heal. How else could they have "a wound that resembles a gunshot", although they are alive? Since it was said in red that they have the wound it must be there, however the cause is unknown, because it only resembles a gunshot wound. You can also see that both Shanon and Kanon always have a hat on, probably to hide the wound.
Putting aside that you're equating the Banquet First Twilight wounds with the "fell off a cliff" wound (which I think is a bit of a stretch), Renall pointed out that that line was translated pretty oddly, with the actual sentiment being closer to "they all appeared to have fatal gunshot wounds.", with whether or not such a wound was present was pretty vague. Also, Godha, Genji, and Kumasawa ALSO had those maybe-gunshot-sounds.

And while I'm sure the sprites have a moderate alignment with how how Ryu imagines everyone dressing, they can't be -entirely- representative, unless you think they never change clothes, and Natsuhi is sleeping in her layered, corseted evening gown. And the anime has both Shannon and Kanon hatless a bit, though I won't really bring that up as strong evidence, here. XD

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally I've always wondered about this terrible wound.
From the way the scene is described you would expect the maid to fall on her head. Now, either she keep on holding the baby through the fall and this is what shielded the baby (assuming she just didn't crumble over the baby) or, more likely, she let the baby go in a desperate attempt to grab something and, if the baby was lucky, he/she fell on her, always falling on his head (heaviest part of his/her body and at that age he/she couldn't really turn).
The chance the baby fell on his/her lower half is rather low.
At that age a stab wound caused by a sharp rock serious enough to cause body damage should also produce enough blood loss to kill the baby.

So hum... I've always been sceptical about it.

Though it's possible that the fall damaged Yasu's brain in such a way it couldn't send the hormonal signals that would allow Yasu to enter into puberty. In this way there would be no visible scar but she would still have a body 'uncapable of love'.
Well,first I have to acknowledge that we're assuming that Yasu = the baby that fell off the cliff. It's an assumption that previous debate has proven unnecessary, but it's the assumption I prefer. So, we'll assume Yasu fell off a cliff as a baby.

EVEN SO, a head injury as you say is not needed the way I'm currently thinking about it. If Yasu has some kind of atypical anatomy, hormone levels, or dysphoria regarding her body, then you don't need an injury to make her feel "incapable of love". If she has some kind of innate non-binary identity in regards to gender, her anger at Genji and Nanjo would have been for saving her life after the fall, AT ALL, because then she had to deal with her problems later in life. She'd rather have just died than have to bother going through a weird puberty, something like that.

It would also give a more reasonable explanation for Lion's defensive stance on the question, AND highlights the wonders that a loving, ABSURDLY wealthy family can do for a kid, especially growing up in the 80's, where a young-Yasu wouldn't have just, say, gone online and found relevant information for what was up with her.
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Old 2012-04-27, 09:47   Link #28618
GuestSpeaker
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I always found the reds about sakutaro confusing, as the text pretty strongly implies he was mass-produced, but the red seems to deny it. However, if you look at what was actually said in red:

"Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only"

You see that it was only when she tried to mention what was made for Maria's birthday that she choked. She could say the rest in red as it was not yet false.

Besides, even at the time of reading that dinner I suspected Rosa was fibbing a little, just like the sussness of them having to swap restaurants.
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Old 2012-04-27, 12:22   Link #28619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
If Yasu has some kind of atypical anatomy, hormone levels, or dysphoria regarding her body, then you don't need an injury to make her feel "incapable of love".
Yeah, but...

Quote:
"Why...?!! Why did you save me?! Why didn't you let me die?! Because of that terrible injury, ...I've been forced to live in a body like this!! I never wanted to live in a body like this!! This body that isn't even capable of love....!! What's... what's the point in living like that?! This isn't a human's life...!! It's like being furniture!! That's right, I'm... furniture...!! Furniture...!! Why... why didn't you let me die back then?!! Waaaaahhh...!!!"
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Old 2012-04-27, 14:43   Link #28620
UsagiTenpura
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I thought Sakutarou had been created (more or less) by CLAMP.

But seriously tho, Sakutarou plushie is one of these things that I think are vastly different between "fictional worlds" and "prime".
You cannot talk in red about prime elements, by default, so who knows if there's really one of that plushie?
In fact it's entirely possible that Rosa bought a plushie for Maria and never claimed it was anything else then that. Considering it an unique plushie hand made by her mother could very well be Maria's way of rewriting her own life.

So if that's right Rosa simply bought a new one. I forgot in which arc that is, but it was implied at one point that Sakutarou's death occurred only a few days/weeks before the Rokkenjima incident.

It could very well be Maria who rejected it too, at that point. Sorta the same thing as Kanon being unable to cheer up Maria while Beatrice can, while the two are anyway the same being. Presenting "here's a new Sakutarou" doesn't work but going "I revived Sakutarou with magic" will work, and Maria will accept it as her's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah, but...
I still think I found the only way this can work.
Yasu is a man and feels unable to love because of homosexuality. Jessica being interested in Yasu (while he's unable to) + being rejected by Battler brought that sentiment in Yasu.
It also explains pretty well the whole "George will dump you when smex".

Note: Isn't it a given that when Shkanontrice talks about injury, it's the same as when they talk about death? It doesn't refer to an actual physical phenomenon.

Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2012-04-27 at 14:53.
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