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Old 2012-04-19, 08:31   Link #81
Chaos2Frozen
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^
Ah okay, now I see what you're getting at...
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Old 2012-04-19, 10:19   Link #82
Vena
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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
(1) Do you think there's *anything* Mikono could do that would change what Amata thinks of her? As in: there's stuff she could do -- and has done! -- that he'd rather she didn't, but he tends to assume she's still perfect...it's just that he doesn't fully understand her, yet. So, is there something she could do that'd leave him thinking "She's got some flaws after all..."?
I'm honestly surprised that there was almost nothing in the most recent episode about how Amata was nearly killed by Kagura, and Mikono ends up protecting the latter. Yunoha is the only one to be there to try and be a shoulder to lean on and while a part of the question is brought up (Why did I (Mikono) act the way I did?), it is answered with baffling idiot logic: (Shushu likes him, he's never liked anyone else, Kagura couldn't be that bad could he?)

Amata was overhearing this and, honestly, how does he not... question that stream of thought? Why does he end up trying to emulate Kagura by befriending ShuShu? If he's going down that road, he might as well start rampaging and killing some of his classmates because Mikono seems to have fairly short term memory when it comes to these *trivial* details. (And yes, if you hadn't guessed, they writers are really pushing my patience with Mikono's character.)

Andy was perfectly correct in the first thing he told Amata: It worked out well but not because of him (Amata), and if he doesn't do anything but mope he's going to lose.

Its standard fair to introduce turbulence in a romance but its usually not done in this awkward of a way. Amata has yet to question Mikono for her actions (and this has literally been hanging in the air over their head since episode six) and the only reason we have *turbulence* is because of an outside force that has had utterly no victories and has accomplished almost nothing in this show that has lasted longer than five minutes... and, worst of all, because your two main characters have this strange inability to speak with one another about each other's feelings where Amata would, probably, be able to find peace if Mikono would go even a tenth of the distance of Zessica. (And, honestly, this has really been diminishing my interest in their romance. They spend more time talking about their problems and Kagura, than they do about their feelings for one another.) I honestly respect and like Amata's character and the hell he's getting dragged through for the girl he likes, but is it to much for me to ask that Mikono do... something? Aside from their first meeting, its always been Amata chasing Mikono (through jelly, through Kagura, or through fate).
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Old 2012-04-19, 10:24   Link #83
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
(1) Do you think there's *anything* Mikono could do that would change what Amata thinks of her? As in: there's stuff she could do -- and has done! -- that he'd rather she didn't, but he tends to assume she's still perfect...it's just that he doesn't fully understand her, yet. So, is there something she could do that'd leave him thinking "She's got some flaws after all..."?
I don't think he thinks of her as perfect? But it's not like she has huge, crippling flaws that no-one else has and that ruins her character. Her flaws that we've seen so far are pretty common stuff, nothing that can't be handled. Plus, some of her flaws are similar to his own so he's familiar with them. (Besides, he knows she's as confused by the present situation as he is.)

That said, what do you mean change what he thinks of her? Make him see her in a negative light? There are many things she could do to make that happen, question is, would she do any of them and if yes, in what context?

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
(2) Do you think there's a limit to *how far* he'd go along with Mikono? EG: suppose she had had enough of Neo-Deava, just wanted to go back to her ordinary life, and asked him to quit with her. Would he go along? If not that, is there some other bridge-too-far?
I think that sort of thing depends on context. For example, why would Mikono leave Neo-Deava and go back to her old life? Is it something Amata could agree with or not? And so on.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
I'm honestly surprised that there was almost nothing in the most recent episode about how Amata was nearly killed by Kagura, and Mikono ends up protecting the latter. Yunoha is the only one to be there to try and be a shoulder to lean on and while a part of the question is brought up (Why did I (Mikono) act the way I did?), it is answered with baffling idiot logic: (Shushu likes him, he's never liked anyone else, Kagura couldn't be that bad could he?)

Amata was overhearing this and, honestly, how does he not... question that stream of thought? Why does he end up trying to emulate Kagura by befriending ShuShu? If he's going down that road, he might as well start rampaging and killing some of his classmates because Mikono seems to have fairly short term memory when it comes to these *trivial* details. (And yes, if you hadn't guessed, they writers are really pushing my patience with Mikono's character.)
I think that's just another example of the writing not being able to handle character relationships on that level. Delving into stuff like that would take up time and would be too complicated to address so they just... leave it out. It's the exact same thing that went on with Amata and Mikono having lunch together and being perfectly in harmony and stuff in one episode and then suddenly Kagura being a tension between them in the next episode, with pretty much zero setup.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
because your two main characters have this strange inability to speak with one another about each other's feelings where Amata would, probably, be able to find peace if Mikono would go even a tenth of the distance of Zessica. (And, honestly, this has really been diminishing my interest in their romance. They spend more time talking about their problems and Kagura, than they do about their feelings for one another.)
Not being able to make the characters communicate is a standard problem in anime writing, though. Take the first half for example, Zessica messing with Amata. Amata is obviously uncomfortable with this but never once tells her to cut it out because that would take the situation somewhere that the writers don't want. Also, Amata can't go and tell Mikono about the whole floating thing because that would resolve the situation and then where would the writers be. Also Kagura's power. Kagura has this huge and hax power and yet he keeps getting his ass kicked for how many episodes, because the writers want to make his reverse speech a surprise... so they make him not use his powers at all. Etc.

So I can't really associate these issues with characterization, because they're just not... "natural" progressions but obvious writing blunders.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Aside from their first meeting, its always been Amata chasing Mikono (through jelly, through Kagura, or through fate).
Mikono wasn't unresponsive, though.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-04-19 at 10:39.
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Old 2012-04-19, 10:59   Link #84
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I think that's just another example of the writing not being able to handle character relationships on that level. Delving into stuff like that would take up time and would be too complicated to address so they just... leave it out. It's the exact same thing that went on with Amata and Mikono having lunch together and being perfectly in harmony and stuff in one episode and then suddenly Kagura being a tension between them in the next episode, with pretty much zero setup.
But they have done it in the past. They've done it just fine with Jin/Yunoha, and with MIX and Andy. It took all of five or so minutes with each where they actually confronted each other on the shit going on: Andy confronts and questions MIX for why she is a massive bitch to him (not in those direct words, and this did take about five episodes to actually build up to and reach but they resolved it). Yunoha confronts Jin fairly quickly about his deceptive nature after, quite visibly, showing a fear of him for which he has to act and they reconcile. Characters have addressed their issues even if the issues don't crop up every episode. (Jin and Yunoha were in perfect harmony one episode then Mykage troll, then friction and resolution. Now, while you're certainly correct that Kagura is like the elephant in the room I think that fact excuses his ability to crop up as a topic rather arbitrarily because... well, he's the elephant in the room. You can ignore him from time to time but not all the time.)

That being said, I think they've handled Mikono/Amata with piss-poor finesse.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Not being able to make the characters communicate is a standard problem in anime writing, though. Take the first half for example, Zessica messing with Amata. Amata is obviously uncomfortable with this but never once tells her to cut it out because that would take the situation somewhere that the writers don't want. Also, Amata can't go and tell Mikono about the whole floating thing because that would resolve the situation and then where would the writers be. Also Kagura's power. Kagura has this huge and hax power and yet he keeps getting his ass kicked for how many episodes, because the writers want to make his reverse speech a surprise... so they make him not use his powers at all. Etc.

So I can't really associate these issues with characterization, because they're just not... "natural" progressions but obvious writing blunders.
Again, though, they have not had a single issue making *others* interact and communicate through adversity and trouble. (Amata does actually ask Zessica to stop but he's rather powerless in every situation because he cannot do anything when he's airborne. And its not like Mikono didn't know that Amata cannot help but fly for everything, it just takes a few episodes (two, and was only a problem for episode five as six was a fight episode) for it to be quickly resolved. (As for Kagura, if you look back his power would have almost never been useful in the handful of episodes where he appeared: Without the power of Altair/Ianthe, he cannot do the bullshit he did in 13(?) of repairing his mecha from getting cut in half and in episode 6 he never actually has a chance to use his power on Amata because Amata jumps off the building and Shrade interrupts and, as we've seen, Shrade's power completely beats Kagura unless the latter is batshit crazy (which doesn't happen until several episodes later ala Mykage). Aside from that, Kagura's not done much else aside from shout Mikono's name and get tortured.)

The problems of communication are entirely restricted to Amata and Mikono, Kagura has a better time communicating with Mikono than Amata does. Like I said, my complaint (and while you're certainly right that Mikono is not unresponsive) is that the initiative is entirely one-sided and Mikono's swinging around some baffling logic accompanied by less than helpful actions that are certainly not helping Amata. This episode was especially onerous of this because they never, not once, talked with each other about the issues at hand. You might even call it symbolic that Mikono's only talk with Amata this episode was: Let's run away, and then getting jelly. With Okada and Kawamori, who have shown that they know how to write romance and good stories, this whole methodology of driving the tension because Mikono and Amata apparently have their tongues in vices is mind-numbing and is dragging down what I find as an otherwise fun to watch, interesting show.
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Old 2012-04-19, 11:48   Link #85
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kuromitsu: I meant "see her in a negative light". But in terms of the other question, it's been interesting to me that we've started to see keep seeing scenarios in which Amata basically is forced to decide "do I go along with Mikono on this one?" only to have external forces bail him out before he has to make a final call. Examples:

(1) Funeral: Mikono refuses to participate, Amata kinda stands around, Zen throws him into a hole before he can take a stand (stay with Mikono? go with everyone else?).
(2) 15: Mikono is like "don't shoot!", Amata hesitates, Kagura tele-evacuated before Amata makes affirmative decision one way or the other.
(3) 16: Mikono wants them to keep running, Zessica disagrees, their cover is blown anyways.

Could just be seeing stuff here, but to me it's starting to look like a pattern. If it is a pattern, it seems like sooner or later she's going to put him on the spot and he won't get bailed out by events. I'm not brave enough to predict what kind of choice it'll be, but I do see a hard choice in his near future. Some kind of "escape" wouldn't surprise me, if only because that's how she was introduced and her instincts still seem to trend more towards "flight" than "fight".

Vena: I think the communication problems apply more broadly than you're giving them credit for. Other examples:

Cayenne and Mikono seemingly can't communicate outside of narrowly-constrained scenarios like the end of episode 6; what he'd want to talk about is the same awkward territory (Amata, Kagura) that blocks Amata-Mikono interaction. Amata and your-choice-of Andy and Zessica seemingly can't *really* talk about what he's feeling for Mikono except obliquely (Andy can lampshade it, but Amata can't really get into it). This radiates out to the peripheral characters (Andy can't talk with MIX about Amata and Mikono in any detail, because of forbidden territory).

With longer episodes and/or better writers it'd be more doable, but as-is it's hard to keep things at the right level of ambiguity within the small amount of time available for such dialogue unless you avoid these kinds of "clarifying" conversations entirely.
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Old 2012-04-19, 11:48   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
But they have done it in the past. They've done it just fine with Jin/Yunoha, and with MIX and Andy. It took all of five or so minutes with each where they actually confronted each other on the shit going on:
Yes, but consider: those were conflicts that were set to be resolved within one episode (or in case of Jin and Yunoha, two eps). Also, they were secondary relationships without much particular weight, never mind long-term importance. And they didn't do a particularly fantastic job on either: Andy learned of Mix's real issues by eavesdropping on Mikono telling Amata her story (lazy, lazy writing), and Jin and Yunoha's relationship developed at a breakneck speed considering Jin's personality. Still, those were doable.

Note, I'm not saying the writing is good: I'm saying it's competent enough to handle secondary relationships. But it breaks when it needs to handle something more long-term and complicated. Also, this is not a problem with just a romance, this not being able to communicate, or ignoring/avoiding situations that would be too complicated to handle pretty much plagues the whole show.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
Now, while you're certainly correct that Kagura is like the elephant in the room I think that fact excuses his ability to crop up as a topic rather arbitrarily because... well, he's the elephant in the room. You can ignore him from time to time but not all the time.)
Thing is, this is where they stumbled. Kagura wasn't the elephant in the room for how many episodes, before he suddenly became one just so they could set up his appearance in the next miniarc. They could've made him so, but that would've required more attention and careful setup. Instead we had Amata and Mikono getting shoved into the background while focusing on secondary characters.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
That being said, I think they've handled Mikono/Amata with piss-poor finesse.
Correction: the entire love quadrangle. Because uh, what exactly made Zessica fall in love with Amata in the first place? (aside of her seeing him half-naked? ) And let's not even get into Kagura, and as you also noted, Mikono's flashes of being completely irrational. (forgive him? Shushu likes him? what? if these are intended as a foundation of her developing feelings for him they're not doing it right. Btw, also note Yunoha's utter non-reaction at Mikono saying this stuff about the guy who killed how many of her classmates, and whose attack indirectly caused Jin's death.)

But ah well, I've been watching anime long enough that this sort of thing doesn't bother me unless it gets really, really egregious. (Like in Gankutsuou - I think that show is pure genius except for that one situation where they avoided dealing with some extremely important issues by ignoring them, which in turn made the foundation of the story stumble.)

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
(Amata does actually ask Zessica to stop but he's rather powerless in every situation because he cannot do anything when he's airborne.
That wasn't really asking her to cut it out, it was just part of the joke.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
And its not like Mikono didn't know that Amata cannot help but fly for everything, it just takes a few episodes (two, and was only a problem for episode five as six was a fight episode) for it to be quickly resolved.
It lasted much longer (can't check atm how many eps), but even if it only lasted only two episodes, it could've been over much sooner if Amata just told Mikono how his floating works. Which he of course never did because then there goes the plot.

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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
(As for Kagura, if you look back his power would have almost never been useful in the handful of episodes where he appeared:
Eps 1-2 - would've been useful. (Have you seen him dismantling the cockpit like that when he took MIkono out? yeah.)
Shrade ep - reverse flight, reverse impact, reverse whip.... and we've seen him glow red and then do nothing.
Etc etc, this is not that thread - basically, I think they weren't handling this well either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Vena: I think the communication problems apply more broadly than you're giving them credit for. Other examples:

Cayenne and Mikono seemingly can't communicate outside of narrowly-constrained scenarios like the end of episode 6; what he'd want to talk about is the same awkward territory (Amata, Kagura) that blocks Amata-Mikono interaction. Amata and your-choice-of Andy and Zessica seemingly can't *really* talk about what he's feeling for Mikono except obliquely (Andy can lampshade it, but Amata can't really get into it). This radiates out to the peripheral characters (Andy can't talk with MIX about Amata and Mikono in any detail, because of forbidden territory).

With longer episodes and/or better writers it'd be more doable, but as-is it's hard to keep things at the right level of ambiguity within the small amount of time available for such dialogue unless you avoid these kinds of "clarifying" conversations entirely.
Pretty much, this.

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Originally Posted by miketyson View Post
Could just be seeing stuff here, but to me it's starting to look like a pattern. If it is a pattern, it seems like sooner or later she's going to put him on the spot and he won't get bailed out by events. I'm not brave enough to predict what kind of choice it'll be, but I do see a hard choice in his near future. Some kind of "escape" wouldn't surprise me, if only because that's how she was introduced and her instincts still seem to trend more towards "flight" than "fight".
I don't know, I think it's too early to say it's a pattern, but you might be right. Sooner or later, though, there will come a time like what you mention, though I'm not sure if it will be Mikono directly who puts him into the situation - but even if it will be her, we would need to know the context to be able to guess what he would do.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-04-19 at 12:02.
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Old 2012-04-19, 12:39   Link #87
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Kuro, I moved us to general discussion.
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Old 2012-04-20, 18:07   Link #88
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Hello there 1st time posting [I believe] but anywhoo here we go

@kuromitsu the reason for his floating has already been talked about in the 1st 2 episodes. He flies whenever his emotions reach an excited state. That means whether due to love or shock or embarrassment, if his emotions reach a certain point he takes flight

I kinda like the development of Amata's character we have seen so far. Although in my opinion the side characters are more developed but I guess it was all for the next episodes left. Maybe episode 17 will be what I have dreamed of. An episode with character development of Mikono, Zessica, and Amata.
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Old 2012-04-20, 18:31   Link #89
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I kinda like the development of Amata's character we have seen so far. Although in my opinion the side characters are more developed but I guess it was all for the next episodes left. Maybe episode 17 will be what I have dreamed of. An episode with character development of Mikono, Zessica, and Amata.
I believe there is that impression, but it's because the side characters can afford to have all their issues settled within that small time frame while Main characters have their issues drag out over a longer period because it's needed for the story.
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Old 2012-04-27, 10:53   Link #90
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I believe there is that impression, but it's because the side characters can afford to have all their issues settled within that small time frame while Main characters have their issues drag out over a longer period because it's needed for the story.
I definitely agree.
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Old 2012-04-27, 11:01   Link #91
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Hello there 1st time posting [I believe] but anywhoo here we go

@kuromitsu the reason for his floating has already been talked about in the 1st 2 episodes. He flies whenever his emotions reach an excited state. That means whether due to love or shock or embarrassment, if his emotions reach a certain point he takes flight

I kinda like the development of Amata's character we have seen so far. Although in my opinion the side characters are more developed but I guess it was all for the next episodes left. Maybe episode 17 will be what I have dreamed of. An episode with character development of Mikono, Zessica, and Amata.
I'm not really happy with what Amata is right now. But something big is probabely going to happen in the next episode and I hope it's the beginning of his solving his issues and growing up.

And I want to know about his mysterious past.
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Old 2012-04-28, 05:39   Link #92
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I do like Mikono. But I certainly not support her getting with Amata. Their relationship started sweet (it's even what get me in the show) but now it's just .

The way it is written at the moment it really seems to bring the worse out of both Mikono and Amata.
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Old 2012-05-27, 23:31   Link #93
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Amata theme song....-Mikono-sannnnnnnn,Miiiiiiikono-san,Mikonooooooooooooo- sannnnnnnnn-
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Old 2012-05-28, 00:04   Link #94
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And there goes any chance of Amata actually growing past his Episode 1 self...
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:04   Link #95
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Amata: "I don't care if Mikono is the reincarnation of Sylvie, I don't care about whatever was fated 12,000 years ago. I love Mikono as she is right now! Mikono as she is right here, right now, this instant!".......GAAAAHHHHHHHH AMATA you make my heart SOAR!!!!!!!! geehehehe
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:08   Link #96
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You do know that Amata is fated to be with her... Right? Kagura is the one that isn't fated to be with her because he's just a fake, so what Amata said contradicts what he really wants. The writers are just trying to twist this to go with the the theme of defying fate but Amata is doing everything but defy fate.
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:17   Link #97
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You do know that Amata is fated to be with her... Right? Kagura is the one that isn't fated to be with her because he's just a fake, so what Amata said contradicts what he really wants. The writers are just trying to twist this to go with the the theme of defying fate but Amata is doing everything but defy fate.

Err what?...Amata is fated to be with her????...ummm... HOW exactly? Kagura isn't a fake he's a fragment LOL...Kagura and Amata are the same person so no I don't believe what he says contradicts his defying fate (because so far this FATE thing has not been established) and um we don't know yet if he is fated to be with Mikono because technically he could still very well die (I hope he does not)...and I just wanted to express how I felt when he said those words...cus um this is the AMATA thread
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:26   Link #98
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Amata is the original reincarnation, Kagura was a fake created by Mykage when Amata was a child. He even calls Kagura as "Dark Amata" and erases his memories and implants false ones.

And yes he's contradicting himself. If he was defying fate he wouldn't be chasing after Mikono who he is fated for. That isn't the case which makes him hypocrite in that regard and a bit stupid considering thta Kagura just said they were the same person.

Fate has already been established more than once and other posters have went into detail with that. The writers have been pushing hard, and thrown a ton of symbolism, that Amata and Mikono are destined for each other which goes against the fighting fate/destiny theme is that's the case.
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:38   Link #99
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Amata is the original reincarnation, Kagura was a fake created by Mykage when Amata was a child. He even calls Kagura as "Dark Amata" and erases his memories and implants false ones.

And yes he's contradicting himself. If he was defying fate he wouldn't be chasing after Mikono who he is fated for. That isn't the case which makes him hypocrite in that regard and a bit stupid considering thta Kagura just said they were the same person.

Fate has already been established more than once and other posters have went into detail with that. The writers have been pushing hard, and thrown a ton of symbolism, that Amata and Mikono are destined for each other which goes against the fighting fate/destiny theme is that's the case.
Oh man seriously...Mykage did NOT create Kagura...yer he named him KAGURA which is why he isn't called AMATA...and they were SPLIT as a child...I agree with the whole contradicting thing because Kagura and Amata are the same person BUT when I say that this FATE hasn't be established meaning WHAT FATE has to be defied? Is it the FATE that they will be together then separated in the end (because Kagura and Amata are the same person) or is the FATE that he is not meant to be with the Mikono now but the Mikono from the legend (aka Sylvia/Sylvie/ whatever)...FATE has not been defined...I do take symbolism into account but you cant call that Amata's Fate, Mikono could very well end up with Kagura first then Amata (after he fights his ass off)....heck even Zessica stated it "Your not fated to be with her"...(correct me if I'm wrong)...I think his defying fate that was said 12,000 years ago is so that they wont have to be separated from each other again.
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Old 2012-05-28, 12:58   Link #100
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Yes he did, he literally used his feather power and made a fake out of Amata and calls him Dark/Fake/Other Amata for a reason.

What fate? Did you not watch the original? Amata and Mikono are fated to be together because of a 12,000 promise. Amata is the reincarnation of Apollo and Mikono is the reincarnation of Silvia. The fate that he's trying to fight is that they're meant for each other(which makes Zessica have merit since she said Kagura was fated to be with Mikono and since he's just a part of Amata that means he's fated for her as well) which is stupid because he wants to get together with his destined love. A huge contradiction right there.

Zessica just interpeted wrong because she doesn't know Kagura "is" a part of Amata and that if Mikono got with Kagura than she could get with Amata, that's why she said that. Doesn't help that Amata didn't appear in any of the mirror visions, so from what she knew she was correct.
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