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Old 2012-04-27, 15:07   Link #28621
Wanderer
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Note: Isn't it a given that when Shkanontrice talks about injury, it's the same as when they talk about death? It doesn't refer to an actual physical phenomenon.
I'm not sure what kind of metaphorical injury would "force" Yasu "to live in a body like this", unless "body" is also a metaphor...

To follow your ideas about Yasu and homosexuality, does this mean that some kind of emotional trauma turned Yasu unhappily gay??
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Old 2012-04-27, 15:46   Link #28622
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One hardly need to "turn" gay to be uncomfortable and confused with one's own sexuality, especially if it hasn't really been adequately explained to you. It's difficult to really know how much Yasu understood about him/herself, honestly, to even guess about that sort of thing.
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Old 2012-04-27, 16:54   Link #28623
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I still think I found the only way this can work.
Yasu is a man and feels unable to love because of homosexuality. Jessica being interested in Yasu (while he's unable to) + being rejected by Battler brought that sentiment in Yasu.
It also explains pretty well the whole "George will dump you when smex".

Note: Isn't it a given that when Shkanontrice talks about injury, it's the same as when they talk about death? It doesn't refer to an actual physical phenomenon.
I always thought Yasu was 'genderless'. The genitals were destroyed from the fall, which may have also had implications on her/his puberty. That also explains probably why 'that person' has such a hard time understanding themselves and form their own identity. And it also explains why "Geroge will dump you when smex", "A body that is incapable of love(-making love?), or "Nee-san, you know you can never give him the future he wants". The third one sounds surprisingly plausible if you take into account how much focus is given in every Episode that George wants to have many kids with Shannon.

I had some serious doubts about this theory when I first came up with it, but that red scene where it explains the term 'furniture' convinced me.
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Old 2012-04-27, 22:45   Link #28624
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"Made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday, and in the entire world, the only"
Well, it is possible to force some amount of red; watch how much Battler is able to say before he chokes. I threw out that entire statement because she choked when she said it.

Quote:
I always thought Yasu was 'genderless'. The genitals were destroyed from the fall, which may have also had implications on her/his puberty.
I used to agree. I also used to use female pronouns when referring to Yasu and Lion for I don't know what reason. Let's try ey?


The reason I disagree with Yasu's 'genderlessness' being related to the fall is because of Lion.
Even eir gender is unknown in a kakera when Natsuhi didn't push the baby off the cliff. Yasu's issues with gender and sexuality has nothing to do with the fall.
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Old 2012-04-27, 23:39   Link #28625
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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
The reason I disagree with Yasu's 'genderlessness' being related to the fall is because of Lion.
Even eir gender is unknown in a kakera when Natsuhi didn't push the baby off the cliff. Yasu's issues with gender and sexuality has nothing to do with the fall.
Lion doesn't really appear to have gender issues though. S/he, at best, is mildly annoyed that people have to keep asking. But otherwise, Lion appears to be entirely comfortable with his/her own identity.
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Old 2012-04-28, 01:46   Link #28626
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Lion possesses multiple traits that an actual 'baby never thrown off cliff' wouldn't possess, therefore Lion's lack of a defined gender is simply because Yasu herself does not know which she'd be happier as; Lion as we see him is not Lion as he would actually exist but Lion as Yasu idealizes his possibility.
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Old 2012-04-28, 03:36   Link #28627
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I agree with AuraTwilight on this one.
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Old 2012-04-28, 08:16   Link #28628
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I don't know about that...I think Lion's 'neutralness' as far as his/her gender is concerned is just so that readers wouldn't be able to figure out Yasu's actual gender. I mean, it'd be kinda silly to let the cat out of the bag like that after such a huge setup.
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Old 2012-04-28, 10:10   Link #28629
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I always thought Yasu was a Female and her body got damaged and her "WOMAN" things stoped working properly. That's why she can't "Give George-sama the future he want's" . But hey i might be wrong.
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Old 2012-04-28, 10:30   Link #28630
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That was actually never confirmed, but I agree, being female would make more sense. After all, Genji was afraid Kinzo might make the same mistake again, and I don't think he would imagine Kinzo raping his son. Then again, there's no guarantee whatsoever.

Even in the scene where Yasu is put in Beatrice's dress, it says something like: 'I was sure this dress would cause a lot of jokes'. So...cat box?
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Old 2012-04-28, 12:33   Link #28631
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Well, that would render all of the red completely meaningless, right?
I mean that like in EP6 where Battler needed to revise on the red truth since he needed to make small changes to his scenario hence by that logic that new red truths can be created as long it does not contradict past ones.


Quote:
Your point about hatred producing the toxin is an interesting one, though I'd rather believe Maria's magic had some meaning and therefore she did love her mama.
I always thought that Sakutaro was a symbol for Maria's love for her mother and belief in her mother loves her back as shown that Sakutaro would always try to comfort Maria during her more pessimistic moments as well that Sakutaro tried to save Rosa from the brutal torture that awaited her in the hands of daughter.

At least in EP4, I do not think that Maria could really love her mother anymore. At least in the fantasy scene where Rosa made brutal comments to Maria while being tortured. If you look at it from the perspective that the whole scene is just Maria's fantasy, that basically that she truly believes every negative she suspected about Rosa.

Like mentioned in EP 3 that magic for happiness can only exist if everyone believes in it. If Maria cannot believe in her mother anymore, then there is no magic.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally I've always wondered about this terrible wound.
IMO I think it is both, damage done to brain and to lower half of the body. First that the baby landed on the head then hit something sharp on the lower side when it was falling down. Probably that it landed in pretty fortunate or unfortunate angle.

However I always thought that baby must have been somewhat of a mess considering that people thought it died.


Quote:
The problem is that Beato, GM for EP 4, shocked on a red she was trying to say. So, unless Ange stole form her the chair of GM, she didn't know all the reds...
Couldn't it be that Beatrice slipped when trying to talk to Ange? That she did not fully remember the red truth and slipped up? For example that she was trying to convince Ange and tried to use the red truth but slipped up?

Quote:
Yasu's body became the 'vessel' for her immaginary friend.
Actually it's more complicate than this.
'Shannon' wasn't just an immaginary friend but also a role model, a superego, what Yasu longed to become and who had a look that, more or less, matched Yasu. So Shannon and Yasu were already supposed to fuse into one when Yasu were to become like 'Shannon' and probably, hadn't Yasu discovered she didn't really want to become 'Shannon', things would have gone smoothly, 'Shannon, the imaginary friend' would have been 'suppressed' and Yasu would have become who she wanted to be.
Interesting view on the matter.


Quote:
The most likely combination is a maid with more or less the look and physical abilities of Shannon (breasts put aside), more or less the anger of Kanon and more or less the character of Beato.
Perhaps Claire be the closest thing that we will get to a combination of the three? Although I am not sure if Kanon's defining traits are anger. If anything it is pessimism and self-sacrifice.

[QUOTE=Captain Bluebeard;4133844]That was actually never confirmed, but I agree, being female would make more sense. After all, Genji was afraid Kinzo might make the same mistake again, and I don't think he would imagine Kinzo raping his son. Then again, there's no guarantee whatsoever.
/QUOTE]

Your forget the number one truth in Umineko, You should not put anything past Kinzo

Quote:
Even in the scene where Yasu is put in Beatrice's dress, it says something like: 'I was sure this dress would cause a lot of jokes'. So...cat box?
Wasn't that maybe due to nature of the dress? I am not sure it has been a while since I read the scene.
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Old 2012-04-28, 16:55   Link #28632
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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
I mean that like in EP6 where Battler needed to revise on the red truth since he needed to make small changes to his scenario hence by that logic that new red truths can be created as long it does not contradict past ones.
Oh, that. Yeah, that can happen. But once he gives out a truth, there's no taking it back.

Quote:
I always thought that Sakutaro was a symbol for Maria's love for her mother and belief in her mother loves her back as shown that Sakutaro would always try to comfort Maria during her more pessimistic moments as well that Sakutaro tried to save Rosa from the brutal torture that awaited her in the hands of daughter.

At least in EP4, I do not think that Maria could really love her mother anymore. At least in the fantasy scene where Rosa made brutal comments to Maria while being tortured. If you look at it from the perspective that the whole scene is just Maria's fantasy, that basically that she truly believes every negative she suspected about Rosa.

Like mentioned in EP 3 that magic for happiness can only exist if everyone believes in it. If Maria cannot believe in her mother anymore, then there is no magic.
Yes, I agree with you. All I was saying is, it's a matter of how you see things. Ange can infrer from Maria's diary that she was very pitiful, while Maria says she was happy. It's left to interpretation, actually. If you interpret it as Maria being a sad kid who was unloved by her mother, you fill the cat box with that truth and vise versa.

After all, Maria could be happy because she believed Rosa was in a business trip. If she stopped believing, then the magic holding that truth to place crumbles.


Quote:
IMO I think it is both, damage done to brain and to lower half of the body. First that the baby landed on the head then hit something sharp on the lower side when it was falling down. Probably that it landed in pretty fortunate or unfortunate angle.
I am still preserving some reservations as to whether Yasu suffers from brain damage. I think it has more to do with a psychological factor, defined by the upbringing and experiences that play a vital role in an individual's formation (and it's not like Yasu had the most normal ones of either).

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Your forget the number one truth in Umineko, You should not put anything past Kinzo
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Wasn't that maybe due to nature of the dress? I am not sure it has been a while since I read the scene.
Yes, that was my point. Yasu says she/he'd be laughed at either way, regardless of the cause being the fact that she wore a strange dress that didn't suit her, or if he was a dude wearing a dress. (Which by the way would somehow kill the moving scene of Kinzo's final words...Oh, well...).

Anyway, the point is, that sentence is put there so as to hint towards both directions simultaneously. I'd really like to know what Ryukishi views his little culprit as, though we're never going to learn. From his interviews, I'd say girl. Though we can never be sure.

Never put anything past Kinzo's creator either.
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Old 2012-04-29, 06:39   Link #28633
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Eh, can't be arsed to quote each specific post.


[QUOTE=AuraTwilight;4133248]Lion possesses multiple traits that an actual 'baby never thrown off cliff' wouldn't possess,
Could you clarify?

I 'unno - it just seems, after reading all this cis/trans/non-binary stuff, it seems, like, potentially problematic the way some folks seem intent to put down Yasu's issues to brain damage and smashed-junk, 'cause it's not really necessary to arrive at the character we've been presented with, and in fact kinda complicates things. Especially because we tend to conflate anatomy and gender (kinda understandably), even though that correlation doesn't work for everyone, INCLUDING people with very typical anatomy. Yasu could've been born an XX girl with a totally functional uterus and ovaries and still have drama, and I can see why that might be compounded by sheer virtue of hitting puberty in 1980.

For example, if Yasu/Lion has a naturally rather fluid gender identity, it would give Kanon's existence way more ... I 'unno, legitimacy than Requiem seemed to give him. If we assume Yasu was born with male bits, then ... well, that just puts us where we are. If we assume she was born with female bits, then that just puts this injury into an extremely weird, ambiguous place.

Oh, I dunno, I'm still trying to sort it out. Reconstruction of infant genitalia has been a thing, since, like, the 60's I think, so I'm trying to imagine what Nanjo could have said. Well, there's also the coincidence of Kanon existing AFTER things were explained to her, so ... I ... just don't know at the moment.
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Old 2012-04-29, 06:49   Link #28634
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I have a hard time accepting that Yasu doesn't have any kind of genital injury, with the stuff about 'a body that can't love, and how obviously awkward she acts when George talks about them building a family together and having children.

I would tend to agree with Aura that Lion is portrayed as androgynous because Yasu doesn't really know which gender to imagine him/her as, and neither does Bern, the GM.
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Old 2012-04-29, 14:57   Link #28635
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I think that umineko actually draws some (very slight) parallels with the visual novel known as CROSS CHANNEL.

Notably,

Spoiler for for CROSS CHANNEL up to ending:


Wierdly enough, the author, Romeo Tanaka (RT) worked on Rewrite with Ryukishi.

So yeah, Kinzo could have ended up raping an effeminate looking boy, which is what Kanon looks like.
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Old 2012-04-29, 16:42   Link #28636
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Quote:
Could you clarify?
Blonde hair, for starters, along with very Mary Sue-ish character traits. (Loved by everyone? In THIS fucking family? Yea right.)
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Old 2012-04-29, 22:09   Link #28637
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I 'unno - it just seems, after reading all this cis/trans/non-binary stuff, it seems, like, potentially problematic the way some folks seem intent to put down Yasu's issues to brain damage and smashed-junk, 'cause it's not really necessary to arrive at the character we've been presented with, and in fact kinda complicates things. Especially because we tend to conflate anatomy and gender (kinda understandably), even though that correlation doesn't work for everyone, INCLUDING people with very typical anatomy. Yasu could've been born an XX girl with a totally functional uterus and ovaries and still have drama, and I can see why that might be compounded by sheer virtue of hitting puberty in 1980.
Well, undoubtely Yasu had other issues beyond whatever injury he/she may have sustained but it was Yasu who talked of a 'wound' so I'll say that the wound only added to all the issues Yasu might have been having.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Couldn't it be that Beatrice slipped when trying to talk to Ange? That she did not fully remember the red truth and slipped up? For example that she was trying to convince Ange and tried to use the red truth but slipped up?
It doesn't look like it but there's no way to prove one theory or the other.
However Maria likely thought Sakutaro was done by her mother and told so to Beato. I don't know if back there Beato has any chance to discover that Sakutaro wasn't handmade by Rosa (who, considering her work, likely could have made a toy like Sakutaro without too many problems.

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Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
Perhaps Claire be the closest thing that we will get to a combination of the three? Although I am not sure if Kanon's defining traits are anger. If anything it is pessimism and self-sacrifice.
Possibly. There's also that in Kanon but the sharpest contrast between Kanon and Shannon is that Kanon hates/feel anger while Shannon can't feel it. It's like as if somewhat Kanon inherited Yasu's darkest emotions and feelings.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
That was actually never confirmed, but I agree, being female would make more sense. After all, Genji was afraid Kinzo might make the same mistake again, and I don't think he would imagine Kinzo raping his son. Then again, there's no guarantee whatsoever.
While it's true that Kinzo might be capable of everything I think Genji would have been a lot less scared Kinzo might jump on Yasu if Yasu was a male since Kinzo has a history of being interested into females.

There's also the fact that Will suggested Shannon was said to be 3 years younger than they were because this would disguise her from being recognized.
If they changed her sex I think this would disguise enough...
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Old 2012-04-30, 07:01   Link #28638
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While it's true that Kinzo might be capable of everything I think Genji would have been a lot less scared Kinzo might jump on Yasu if Yasu was a male since Kinzo has a history of being interested into females.
Yes, that was exactly my point, all I said was that this alone doesn't count as proof of Yasu's gender.

Quote:
There's also the fact that Will suggested Shannon was said to be 3 years younger than they were because this would disguise her from being recognized.
If they changed her sex I think this would disguise enough...
I don't think they'd do that...Even if her/his genitals were smashed, he wouldn't want to give him/her more psychological shitiness than she/he was already up for.

However, this is somewhat interesting. I mean, it appears Yasu is unsure about her own gender, but what do others, like Natsuhi and Krauss or the other servants perceive her as, and how accurate can their view of it be? Shannon, for instance is viewed as female, so probably the same thing goes for Yasu too.
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Old 2012-04-30, 07:20   Link #28639
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S/he, at best, is mildly annoyed that people have to keep asking
That was how I felt about it as well, though I agree it was also to keep his/her gender unknown. (Though as I have said, the manga may actually reveal it)

After all, how would you react if a stranger asked your gender, a question you have to field an annoying amount of the time? I could see giving a similar sort of brush off answer.
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Old 2012-04-30, 07:23   Link #28640
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Also regarding an earlier conversation about Ange, I was under the impression that Ange Beatrice was the version of her Tohya invited to play the game, while sailing boat Ange was more his interpretation of more real events that occurred to her. Known or otherwise.

Furthermore, was it Aurora who quoted "she wanted Battler to solve this, so she made it solvable" as proof game piece Battler should have enough info to solve the riddles? Because this was said in the Meta World to Meta Battler....
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