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Old 2012-04-30, 20:04   Link #241
Arabesque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
This is the thread for Game Players. No need for a spoiler box for something like that, especially since it's also been animated.
I was just using them for the size, but alright.

As for the animated bit, I thought that both times they got it wrong. Den screwed it up in the series and the movie, and ufotable made Rin waaaay too eager in the scene that was meant to be a last meeting.
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Even if she had tried to summon a Servant when her magical energy was at its peak she would still have gotten Archer. This is because unknown to her the pedant was working as her catalyst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Though unbeknownst to either of them, it didn't matter when she summoned her Servant (except perhaps as far as stats go). Archer was her's 100% guaranteed since he had a relic of her's (as explained in UBW, the relic factor works both ways, it's not just if the Master has a relic of the Servant).
Huh, you guys are right. I got confused since she said ''I'm going to summon Saber anyway!'' so I thought that she had a chance to get Saber, but apparently that was Rin just trying to defy the inevitable.

Tokiomi still screwed it up with the stats though, even if it didn't really matter at the end of the day I guess.

But wait, if Rin was going to summon EMYIA no matter what, did that mean he was also summoned from the world EMYIA himself came from? I was under the impression that she had a different Archer in that world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Tokiomi didn't jeopardize anything. The next Grail War was supposed to happen in 60 years, not 10. I think that was just coincidence.

Thanks for posting the excerpts.
Even then, his little test really made Rin's preparation for the spell go awry. A very important spell, mind you, and had this happened with anything else, it might have really screwed her over.

The point I'm making is that Tokiomi was so caught up in training Rin as a magus, that he didn't really consider how his actions could have an effect on Rin's life, even if it was messing with her clocks and making them go faster an hour. She might have an appointment she needs to go to, and when she arrives there she realizes that she's an hour early etc. wasting her time for no good reason, or in the case of the VN, making her summon a servant with lower stats.
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Old 2012-04-30, 20:25   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
But wait, if Rin was going to summon EMYIA no matter what, did that mean he was also summoned from the world EMYIA himself came from? I was under the impression that she had a different Archer in that world.
That's a whole other can of worms that can't be proven one way or the other and can be argued either way.
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Old 2012-04-30, 20:32   Link #243
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Even then, his little test really made Rin's preparation for the spell go awry. A very important spell, mind you, and had this happened with anything else, it might have really screwed her over.

The point I'm making is that Tokiomi was so caught up in training Rin as a magus, that he didn't really consider how his actions could have an effect on Rin's life, even if it was messing with her clocks and making them go faster an hour. She might have an appointment she needs to go to, and when she arrives there she realizes that she's an hour early etc. wasting her time for no good reason, or in the case of the VN, making her summon a servant with lower stats.
If he wasn't so caught up in being a magus then Sakura wouldn't have been given away. Tokiomi is a true magus and it naturally led to his downfall like all magi before hiim.

And honestly, Rin could have taken five minutes to change a few clocks when she noticed they turned. There is no blame on Tokiomi here.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That's a whole other can of worms that can't be proven one way or the other and can be argued either way.
I think we can apply that to the majority of the Nasuverse.
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Old 2012-05-01, 22:31   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
As for the animated bit, I thought that both times they got it wrong. Den screwed it up in the series and the movie, and ufotable made Rin waaaay too eager in the scene that was meant to be a last meeting.
Of course, Rin didn't realize that it would be a last meeting and Tokiomi, though willing to take precautions, wasn't entirely sure, either. This is actually one of those unusual situations in which I feel that an adaption executed a scene more effectively than the original, as seeing Rin ecstatic to see her father, provides more of an emotional affect, upon Tokiomi's death, than it would if she wasn't visibly happy to see him. Even anime-only viewers can tell that she clearly loved him, and that his death would have a profound, negative affect upon her, which is something that a stoic reaction wouldn't as clearly communicate.

I also enjoy the extremely minor change in their exchange from, "keep the magic association in your debt," in the original flashback, to, "keep the church in your debt," in the anime, as I felt that the mention of a magi's relationship to the church was more relevant to this particular episode. Tokiomi had, after all, been collaborating with it throughout the Grail War, and the murder of its representative, Risei Kotomine, is what prompted his sudden burst of pessimism.
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Old 2012-05-01, 22:36   Link #245
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Even anime-only viewers can tell that she clearly loved him
I'll say. She was bordering on an Electra complex there. Then again, that does seem to be a recurring trend in tsunderes.
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Old 2012-05-01, 22:43   Link #246
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Well, if we're saying the adaptations could make changes that more effectively communicate things that they might not otherwise have, I think having her father give her the jewel right as he leaves also emphasizes the jewel's importance.
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Old 2012-05-01, 23:35   Link #247
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
I also enjoy the extremely minor change in their exchange from, "keep the magic association in your debt," in the original flashback, to, "keep the church in your debt," in the anime, as I felt that the mention of a magi's relationship to the church was more relevant to this particular episode. Tokiomi had, after all, been collaborating with it throughout the Grail War, and the murder of its representative, Risei Kotomine, is what prompted his sudden burst of pessimism.
No, it's Mage's Association. They translated it wrong. Courtesy of UTW: http://pastebin.com/YXn6Gz5s
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Old 2012-05-03, 23:05   Link #248
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
I'll say. She was bordering on an Electra complex there. Then again, that does seem to be a recurring trend in tsunderes.
The intent of Nasu was to create a "superman", according to supplementary materials. Tokiomi is a perfect man in every aspect. He is a loving father, a great husband. Because of his business decisions, House Tohsaka was able to accumulate unprecedented wealth. He is also quite a good magus, as you can see Gilgamesh's status are great under him (Servants get better status under good magus).

Of course there's the "Tohsaka curse", i.e. "always screws up at the pivotal moment". You see this in action in Ep 17. You also saw Rin's version of the curse kicking in while she summoned Archer an hour before her planned ideal time, lol.

You would love Tokiomi too if you are his child. That man is a boss.


EDIT:

You may argue "but look how he threw Sakura into a hell hole".

It was not his fault really. Any competent magus would have chosen the same path. Magi's goal is to reach Akasha, and doubling the chance of your descendants reaching Akasha is something you absolutely cannot pass up.

Also, House Matou had been quite a valorous House. Young Zouken was quite the hot-blooded hero. Tokiomi probably had absolutely no idea the head of House Matou had fallen so far from grace.

'Tis all an unfortunate series of events, really.
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Old 2012-05-05, 15:44   Link #249
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So, on the topic of Fate/Zero increasing my appreciation of Fate/Stay Night, I couldn't help but think about was this during Kerry's ''choice''

Spoiler for :


Suddenly, Saber's fate in Heaven's Feel doesn't seem so bad (well, aside for what happens to her when she gets back to the 500's, but this is another case of lol Nasu so ...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
Of course, Rin didn't realize that it would be a last meeting and Tokiomi, though willing to take precautions, wasn't entirely sure, either. This is actually one of those unusual situations in which I feel that an adaption executed a scene more effectively than the original, as seeing Rin ecstatic to see her father, provides more of an emotional affect, upon Tokiomi's death, than it would if she wasn't visibly happy to see him. Even anime-only viewers can tell that she clearly loved him, and that his death would have a profound, negative affect upon her, which is something that a stoic reaction wouldn't as clearly communicate.
Now that you mention it, I think you're right. The scene certainly makes more sense to have Rin being ecstatic to see her father again, and there wasn't really anything that Tokiomi had done to let her feel like this could be their last meeting in anyway. Yeah, I think I do like it how they done in Fate/Zero a lot more than Fate/Stay Night (wouldn't be the first time this happened lol)

And being an anime-only watcher (I played the game but I have to yet read the LN for Zero, outside of reading the chapters that the anime had already covered) I had felt that the anime had done a fantastic job at not only adapting, but improving upon the established work and making things a whole lot tighter and more satisfying than it was in either the game or the book. I like the original source, but I honestly am in love with the anime right now.

And to think this is from the director of Girl's Bravo lol...

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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Well, if we're saying the adaptations could make changes that more effectively communicate things that they might not otherwise have, I think having her father give her the jewel right as he leaves also emphasizes the jewel's importance.
I had sometime to think about it, and I think both scenes work out fine. I mean, in the end it's not really an important detail if Rin ended up getting Archer regardless. Having Tokiomi give her the pendent works since it emphasizes how important her father was to her, and also shows how huge was it for her to use it to save Shirou and Archer replacing it for her. Having her find the pendent and screwing up the time works since it ties up with Tokiomi ''testing'' her and whatnot.

In the end, I think that both Deen and ufotable did the flashback scenes a lot better than the VN, by giving it a lot more significance than it had originally.

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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
The intent of Nasu was to create a "superman", according to supplementary materials. Tokiomi is a perfect man in every aspect. He is a loving father, a great husband. Because of his business decisions, House Tohsaka was able to accumulate unprecedented wealth. He is also quite a good magus, as you can see Gilgamesh's status are great under him (Servants get better status under good magus).

Of course there's the "Tohsaka curse", i.e. "always screws up at the pivotal moment". You see this in action in Ep 17. You also saw Rin's version of the curse kicking in while she summoned Archer an hour before her planned ideal time, lol.

You would love Tokiomi too if you are his child. That man is a boss.


EDIT:

You may argue "but look how he threw Sakura into a hell hole".

It was not his fault really. Any competent magus would have chosen the same path. Magi's goal is to reach Akasha, and doubling the chance of your descendants reaching Akasha is something you absolutely cannot pass up.

Also, House Matou had been quite a valorous House. Young Zouken was quite the hot-blooded hero. Tokiomi probably had absolutely no idea the head of House Matou had fallen so far from grace.

'Tis all an unfortunate series of events, really.
About the bold: Yes, there is no denying that Gilgamesh had his best possible stats as a Servant (lol) while Tokiomi was his Master (lol) but I do wonder when had stats ever come into play when we got into the battles between Servants in this series ... even under Kirie, Gilgamesh was still the strongest Servant around due to him being the oldest hero . Hell, Rider had a pretty crappy Master in Waver, and yet the fact he gained such a massive boost from his fame (and infamy) made him stand on equal footing with Archer. Hercules was the same, hell even Saber with Shirou when you think about it, so it has more about who the hero is (how old are their legend, how famous are they today) and what their abilities are is the main aspect that decides who is more powerful.

As for Tokiomi, I do get what you are saying. Yes, on the surface level, Tokiomi had been an excellent head of the house. He clearly took care of his wife, made sure she was happy and satisfied. He cared for his girls future, given by how much he took into sending Sakura to another family to become it's successor (putting aside for the moment that he didn't know about what sort of person Zouken had become) and making sure to name Kirie as Rin's guardian in his will (preparing for any possibility) etc. Yes, Tokiomi was successful ... on the surface of everything, that is.

No matter how much we try and justify it Tokiomi had, knowingly, sent Sakura to the Matou's knowing that there would be the possibility that she might, one day, fight with Rin. He chose to make his youngest daughter a magus not because it was in her best interest, but because it was in his family best interest, or at least what he thought would be in the Tohsaka's futures best interest. He could've chosen to not make her a magus, to let her live a normal life, but because of her rare ability, he didn't want to let it go to ''waste'', and instead of having her being a target of the Association since she wouldn't be a head of the house, he decided to send her to a rival (not an unrelated) house, where she would be taught. He could have sent her away from the country to a different one where she could've started life away from the possibility of having to fight her sister in the future, but he didn't.

And that's really the problem with Tohsaka Tokiomi. Oh sure, the Tohsaka curse comes into play a bit, but there can be on denying that the man has a very wrapped view of the world, to the point where he can only see things in a tunnel vision of the route to the Root, not about how it effects the lives of those close to him. The reason why Tokiomi took care of his wife, appeared as a loving father figure to Rin, and arranged for both of his girls futures so early had more to do with him viewing them as assets to be cared for and maintained, not as other human beings whom he should love. Sure, I do think there was a part of him that really did care for his family, but the biggest part went into thinking ''what is the best way to utilize them?'' not ''what is the best way to make them happy?''.

Tokiomi thought that the only way to live is by the path of the magus, and assumed that would be the case with his daughters, both born with rare and high magical capabilities, so he got them to go on the same path, not realizing that there were other roads he could have taken.
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Old 2012-05-05, 17:33   Link #250
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Of course status and Master matter.

The reason Sabre's hacking and slashing do nothing to Hercules was because Shirou was such a fail Master and caused Sabre's STR to drop.

The reason Gilgamesh was able to block and parry Sabre's hack and slash in the bridge encounter in Stay Night was because Shirou was a fail Master.

Status do not directly influence Noble Phantasms, but Servants do not let their Noble Phantasms rip all the time (they would burn out before the War is over).

Furthermore, having a crappy Master will also cause the rank of Servant skills to drop as well.

Read this for some examples: http://completematerial.pbworks.com/...32479544/Index

Also, being a magus is a way of life. Personal gains or losses are insignificant compared to the goal of reaching Akasha.

If you really want to pin a blame, blame the entire mage order. Tokiomi did no wrong. He did all he could for his House and his family.
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Old 2012-05-06, 00:28   Link #251
Arabesque
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First of all, I want to thank you for posting that link. I didn't know there was a place where they had a translated CM before, so that certainly helped me a lot

On the topic of status, I want to point out that the stuff written in CM 3 sort of confirm that Who the Servant Is >>>> What their Status is/Who is their Master.

Quote:
Altria retained her Magic Resistance of A while having Emiya Shirou and Rin as Masters, regardless the two’s differences in power and characteristics. On the other hand, while having Matou Sakura as her Master, her Magic Resistance decreased to B as a result of Blackening.
Some status never change regardless of who the master is. In extreme circumstances, status might change but due to powerful magic, not because of the magus them self.

Quote:
Sabre’s Riding was elevated to A while having Emiya Kiritsugu as Master. However, Altria can ultimately only control normal mounts.
No matter how high a stat might go, if the hero never had an prior knowledge in that stat, it's not going to make much difference since they wont be able to use it.

And while Archer might have had his best stats underneath (lol?) Tokiomi
Quote:
However, since Gilgamesh did not have any abilities that can resist magecraft, it remains at the minimum level of E. Its effect is merely light damage mitigation against sorcery rather than full neutralisation. The cause of his low Magic Resistance is probably related to his Master, Kotomine Kirei’s lack of magical energy. In reality, during the Fourth Holy Grail War, Gilgamesh’s Magic Resistance was elevated to C with Tohsaka Tokiomi as his Master.
however
Quote:
Gilgamesh is able to neutralise most sorceries due to having many items that defend against sorcery, such as the golden armour. The defensive powers of these items are quite high, as Rin’s sorcery was completely repelled.
So even if he had E or EX Magical resistance, it wouldn't really matter, since Gilgamesh already has the tools necessary to protect himself against any thing a mage might throw at him, due to the fact he is Gilgamesh.

And the nail in the coffin is

Quote:
With an Independent Action rank that sets him completely apart from the rest, Gilgamesh is able to operate without a Master. With a rank of A+ that exceeds even A, the support of a Master is unnecessary even while unleashing a large amount of magical power. It is an ability that bends the rules and allows for the continued materialisation of Servants even after the conclusion of the Holy Grail War.
So yeah

And yes, as a Master Shirou was pretty crappy (well in terms of providing support and what not. He wasn't the worst master in the 5th war tho) but even then, there wasn't much he could've done in regards to Hercules (Saber couldn't do Hack-n-Slash with Hercules in the first place, due to again him being Hercules and having God Hand and all) and Gilgamesh stopping Saber with his armor (I actually think Deen did the scene better with him using a sword instead) he did point out that he could only do it a few times before the armor gave out (and if we take what CM 3 said about his Golden Armor, that is actually impressive)

That said, I wonder how reliable the CM books are really when it comes to the canon of the games ...
Spoiler for Heaven's Feel?:


Quote:
If you really want to pin a blame, blame the entire mage order. Tokiomi did no wrong. He did all he could for his House and his family.
I think part of the blame lies at what sort of people are magi, and the society that gave birth to this sort of twisted thinking. That said, saying Tokiomi did no wrong is a not true. The man might have done what he thought was right, but he did it without any regard to what he thought what might have been what his girls might have wanted, but as to what would make the best use of the assets under his hand.
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Old 2012-05-06, 09:11   Link #252
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Shirou didn't use UBW to construct Excalibur, he did it from scratch the old fashioned way. He only used UBW in the UBW route.

On a side note, I have final this week and the last thing I needed was a link to the CM translated.
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Old 2012-05-06, 09:34   Link #253
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Before episode 16 I was thinking Kiritsugu might pull Aoi into the fight to get at Tokiomi. But that idea died with Tokiomi.

Maybe Aoi just raises Rin normally for a few years then dies in a car accident or something. Rin's a little too stable for me to think both her parents died and she lived on her own until F/SN. And I can't imagine Kotomine did much as her guardian. He's too unsettled right now. And Rin turned out too normal.
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Old 2012-05-06, 09:36   Link #254
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Shirou didn't use UBW to construct Excalibur, he did it from scratch the old fashioned way. He only used UBW in the UBW route.
I don't remember when he did that.

Didn't Shirou not only replicate Caliburn?
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Old 2012-05-06, 09:40   Link #255
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I don't remember when he did that.

Didn't Shirou not only replicate Caliburn?
He did in the Fate route. In HF he was ultimate bad ass and traced just about everything, lol.
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Old 2012-05-06, 09:55   Link #256
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I don't remember when he did that.

Didn't Shirou not only replicate Caliburn?
The "Good" ending, not the True ending. He doesn't fight Kirei, so he's not completely broken when it's 1v1 against Angra Mainyu. So he traces Excalibur (note: the translation just says they can't be replicated, not that UBW can't do it, so it's still wrong) and blows it up, along with himself. Note that Archer also threatened to do it to Saber in the UBW route.
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Old 2012-05-06, 10:30   Link #257
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Excalibur is non-replicable in that it can't be perfectly reproduced. Archer himself admitted it can't be perfectly copied and that he could only "get it close". I'm assuming the sword Shirou projected at the end of HF was also just a poor knock-off of Excalibur. It's still very powerful, but it's not a divine sword.

Basically, it's more or less the same as his projection of Kansho and Bakuya, whose originals are uber powerful compared to the one Archer uses.

Quote:
Complete Material 3: Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?
A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.
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Old 2012-05-06, 11:25   Link #258
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Every sword that Shirou/Archer traces isn't perfect. That's why they're always a rank lower than they would be if it were the real deal.

As for Kansho and Bakuya, what do you mean uber powerful? Archer's are rank C if I recall, meaning the originals would be rank B. That barely puts them on the same level as Gae Bolg, and unlike Gae Bolg they don't have a sure-fire kill ability.
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Old 2012-05-06, 11:42   Link #259
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It's annoying with the interviews contradict the supplement info in the game.
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Old 2012-05-06, 11:50   Link #260
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Personally, I'll take what's stated in-game over an interview three-steps removed (speaker to interviewer, interviewer to editor, editor to translator) any day.
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