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Old 2012-05-02, 10:13   Link #28661
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I don't believe I saw the part in the manga about the boiler room door, what did it say?
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Old 2012-05-02, 10:31   Link #28662
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I still wonder about that door too. It was explicitly stated that the door from the courtyard to the boiler room had no lock, and it's a very nice solution for EP3's First Twilight, but it was never mentioned again in the VNs. I haven't read the manga, so I'm curious about what was said about it too, if it was "fixed".
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Old 2012-05-02, 10:46   Link #28663
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I believe someone said that a panel in the manga shows that the doors to the courtyard were blocked by something, so they couldn't have been used to exit. None of this is in the VN.
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Old 2012-05-02, 11:01   Link #28664
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I am not sure about the manga, but i remember in the anime, they added a bar blocking the 2nd door to the outside, when they showed the rooms of the 1st twilight in Banquet.
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Old 2012-05-02, 12:11   Link #28665
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They showed the boiler room at 0:16, and I didn't notice any bar. Or are you referring to something else?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUTuR...feature=relmfu
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Old 2012-05-02, 15:40   Link #28666
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I don't think they'd do that...Even if her/his genitals were smashed, he wouldn't want to give him/her more psychological shitiness than she/he was already up for.
I definitely hope not.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
However, this is somewhat interesting. I mean, it appears Yasu is unsure about her own gender, but what do others, like Natsuhi and Krauss or the other servants perceive her as, and how accurate can their view of it be? Shannon, for instance is viewed as female, so probably the same thing goes for Yasu too.
Well, the others could see only Shannon, who was introduced as a female and they knew Shannon from when she was a child so I don't think they ever wondered Shannon's sex (also Shannon helped her female look giving herself breasts). It's Kanon whose look might have been wondered about as he 'joined' the Ushiromiya when he was already a teenager but Battler waved him off thinking he was sort of a late bloomer and that would grow in height, size and strenght later.

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The game is really inconsistent on how it distinguishes Meta-Battler from Piece-Battler. Sometimes they're completely separate, sometimes it seems to completely forget that they're not the same person. It's pretty weird.
I think the idea is that... well MetaBattler is roleplaying himself in the game so his reactions and piece Battler's reactions as well as thoughts matches. Plus I also think Beato had fun muddling things further so the border between the two would be thinnier.

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I assume they mean exact blood relatives, i.e. that neither knew they were both Kyrie's kids. Or something. I'm not aware of them ever suggesting they had different fathers, other than Battler's crazy ep5 speculation which he was clearly just doing to stall.
I wonder if Ange really didn't know the truth. When Beato starts her plan to mess up with Battler's mind Ange seems to figure what she planned to do. She could do that only if she knew that Battler's tie with his mother could be questioned.

Also it' possible that the truth had reached the future so, while Battler knew nothing about Kyrie being his mom, in the future is public knowledge Rudolf switched the babies. After all it was said they digged in Rudolf's past and it turned out he wasn't exactly a little angel. I wouldn't be surprised if some news reporter had discovered that Asumu and Kyrie had a baby the same day and that one was a stillborn. He might have found the thing intriguing, have done some investigations and found out the truth.

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My two cents on Yasu's Gender: The way I see it, the only way to figure out much about Yasu is by comparing him/her to Lion. It seems to me that Yasu doesn't really worry about his/her own gender much like Lion doesn't seem to want to worry about it. (S)he is probably more sure of herself than we give him/her credit for.
Well, the real problem for Yasu seemed to be she feared rejection because she couldn't give George the future with many kids he wanted, not because he were to discover she was a he.

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
As for the wound (s)he suffered, (s)he probably received it on his/her head since not only is (s)he clumsy (which means his/her sense of balance is off), (s)he can't grow much either (since (s)he was able to pass as elementary schooler, more than likely his/her body's sense of growth is off as well). The damage was probably taken near her hypothalamus (and probably hit her cerebellum too). This probably affected her hair growth too since she commonly wears wigs, meaning she doesn't have as much hair as Lion does.
I thought she would only wear wigs when impersonating Kanon or Beato... though this gives a completely new light to the fact that in the manga the one I call shapeless black Beato is apparently without hair...[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
And it's not really far-fetched for a kid like that to be well liked by almost everyone, since Battler, George, and Jessica ALSO share an amiable relationship with just about everyone. Like, the worst you get is Kyrie's Asumu issues when she's around Battler, but she apparently gets over it well enough to visit him with Ange, mentor him a bit, and casually discuss castrating his Rudolf.
Add to this that Lion's depiction was likely biased toward Lion and that the adults wouldn't show open disliking toward any of the kids. Eva rambles in her mind about how Jessica is a girl so she shouldn't inherit but then she's always nice with her and even feel a bit guilty about discriminating her for her sex.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
That is the thing with red text, isn't it? As it stands now, I'm pretty certain Battler should be able to say Ushiromiya Asumu was my mother. It was from her that I was born., assuming his sentiment about what it means to be a mother and "born from" have changed accordingly.
Well, in that moment he was thinking to 'born' with the commonly intended definition, so he couldn't say it... though after the last game he probably could have said it because he would have been able to think at 'born' giving it a different meaning (giving a fundamental contribute in forming his personality and education and so on)

Maybe this is an odd idea but I wonder if that red applied to MetaBattler or to PieceBattler and Beato twisted things so that MetaBattler would think it applied to him while it applied to PieceBattler.

Though evidently somehow Beato might have found out the truth. Rudolf might have confessed it to Kinzo when he remarried and Shannon/Kanon might have incidentally heard it.

Also, if actually Battler even found out in RokkenjimaPrime and MetaBattler is nothing else but Toya's dream/fantasy/whatever, while MetaBattler isn't aware of the truth Toya is and therefore he can consciously/unconsciously dictate which red can be said and which can't.

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So I've been watching that silly nine hour video lately.

The arguments to 'disprove' Shkanon are pretty stupid and not even necessary, but I thought his solution to the logic error was pretty interesting. Basically Kanon escaped from the cousins' room between the time when Battler confirmed everyone's location and the time Dlanor confirmed that the rooms were sealed. Then Kanon was the one who left the letter regarding Battler's corpse. Then Kanon went and 'rescued' Battler, Erika (who had killed five victims and was looking for the last) deduced that he must be in the closet, and she shot through the closet, causing Kanon to cease to exist (represented in meta by her throwing the spears at the closet).

What do you guys think of this?
Wasn't it also said that Kanon disappeared from the closet?

Okay, it can be a wordplay as only his body would remain there but not his soul but somehow it doesn't make much sense...

Oh and Renall before I forget:
The way you had Battler solve the logic error was AWESOME.
I so love it!
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Old 2012-05-02, 16:35   Link #28667
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I need everyone's input on this, since it's been bugging me for a while. (I was going to finish up EP8 beforehand).

Put simply, why is Maria described to be dead at the end of each fiction? Most people would determine that she died after the explosion and leave it at that.

Unless this is something made at the end that only we get to see, the only solution to this I can think of is that someone wants everyone to be sure that she's dead.

The only scenario that I can think of is that she is actually alive, and that her believed death is a requirement.

It's bugging me.
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Old 2012-05-02, 17:11   Link #28668
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Originally Posted by Uberzaki View Post
I need everyone's input on this, since it's been bugging me for a while. (I was going to finish up EP8 beforehand).

Put simply, why is Maria described to be dead at the end of each fiction? Most people would determine that she died after the explosion and leave it at that.

Unless this is something made at the end that only we get to see, the only solution to this I can think of is that someone wants everyone to be sure that she's dead.

The only scenario that I can think of is that she is actually alive, and that her believed death is a requirement.

It's bugging me.
I'm not sure what you're asking as well... everybody is described to be dead.
Anyway in the first 2 episodes Maria is likely killed by the explosion. But in Ep 3 we know she died pretty early due to strangulation and in EP 4 she died late by poisoning.

Maria's death however was confirmed in Prime (a piece of her jaw was found if I'm not wrong) merely because the message bottle found was signed Ushiromiya Maria, which might have implied she survived and wrote it so the author wanted to make sure we would discharge that reasoning.
Probably other pieces from other Ushiromiya were found but even if they found... let's say Jessica's head in a recognizable shape, the novel didn't bother confirming her death.

What we can assume is that Battler, Rudolf and Kyrie's deaths were 'unconfirmed' (no recognizable pieces of them were found) as Ange still hope they might be alive.
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Old 2012-05-02, 18:29   Link #28669
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Well, the real problem for Yasu seemed to be she feared rejection because she couldn't give George the future with many kids he wanted, not because he were to discover she was a he.
I think these are just two ways of stating the same problem.
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I thought she would only wear wigs when impersonating Kanon or Beato... though this gives a completely new light to the fact that in the manga the one I call shapeless black Beato is apparently without hair...
Why do you think a Beatrice disguise was necessary? She may have been in possession of the dress, but she never needs to actually wear it after Kinzo dies.

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Add to this that Lion's depiction was likely biased toward Lion and that the adults wouldn't show open disliking toward any of the kids. Eva rambles in her mind about how Jessica is a girl so she shouldn't inherit but then she's always nice with her and even feel a bit guilty about discriminating her for her sex.
Well, yeah, that's what it means to be an adult - knowing how to act appropriately. And despite that bit of rambling, Eva's relationship with Jessica is still QUITE GOOD when it's not put under the stress of ritualistic murders. I'll admit that Lion is a bit Mary-Sui-ish, but his traits never veer into the unrealistic, and he enjoys a relationship to the relatives pretty much the same as the other kids. I mean, none of the adults even have any real, legitimate, supported-by-text reasons to dislike any of the kids, like they do to sometimes dislike each other (and even THOSE are pretty scant, actually).


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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, in that moment he was thinking to 'born' with the commonly intended definition, so he couldn't say it... though after the last game he probably could have said it because he would have been able to think at 'born' giving it a different meaning (giving a fundamental contribute in forming his personality and education and so on)
Yes, that's exactly what I think. His sentiment will have changed from "I fell out of THAT uterus." to "Ushiromiya Asumu raised me with love and was a huge part of the person I ended up being, and fulfilled pretty much every role one typically associates with a mother."

Or perhaps, more flippantly, Step-moms are moms, too.


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Wasn't it also said that Kanon disappeared from the closet?

Okay, it can be a wordplay as only his body would remain there but not his soul but somehow it doesn't make much sense...
We were told that Kanon does not exist in the guest room. .........Of course, this includes all parts of the closet, the bedroom, and the bathroom. There is certainly still a body in the closet.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Probably other pieces from other Ushiromiya were found but even if they found... let's say Jessica's head in a recognizable shape, the novel didn't bother confirming her death.

What we can assume is that Battler, Rudolf and Kyrie's deaths were 'unconfirmed' (no recognizable pieces of them were found) as Ange still hope they might be alive.
I believe it was stated that the only recognizable piece of a person that was found AT ALL was Maria's jawbone. You could theorize, then, that anybody BESIDES Maria was still perhaps alive and well. Or in Maria's case, alive and very jawless.

I sometimes wonder, when Ange says she'll accept "anyone at all" coming home, if Godha pulled up in a coupe, took off his hater blockers, and was all "Hey girl. You KNOW I meant to call you after that whole, tch, EXPLOSION thing. It was c-razy. How you doin'?"
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Old 2012-05-02, 18:38   Link #28670
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Put simply, why is Maria described to be dead at the end of each fiction? Most people would determine that she died after the explosion and leave it at that.

Unless this is something made at the end that only we get to see, the only solution to this I can think of is that someone wants everyone to be sure that she's dead.

The only scenario that I can think of is that she is actually alive, and that her believed death is a requirement.

It's bugging me.
If you're talking about Maria's jaw, I think that was only mentioned at the end of EP1. We've discussed it a bit before... You can probably start here:
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I believe it was stated that the only recognizable piece of a person that was found AT ALL was Maria's jawbone. You could theorize, then, that anybody BESIDES Maria was still perhaps alive and well. Or in Maria's case, alive and very jawless.
Or Maria's alive and still has her jaw. Another person's jaw + forged dental records to ID them as Maria's... Think it's far-fetched? Well, it's a trick RK07 actually used before in Higurashi so I wouldn't say it's out of the question. In fact, it calls attention to itself precisely because of that.
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Old 2012-05-02, 18:47   Link #28671
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I can accept "Asumu is Battler's mother." as referring to (effectively), an adoptive mother, but I can only accept "Battler was born of Ushiromiya Asumu" as "Asumu is Battler's gestatial mother.".
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Old 2012-05-02, 19:11   Link #28672
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Well, the real problem for Yasu seemed to be she feared rejection because she couldn't give George the future with many kids he wanted, not because he were to discover she was a he.
I wouldn't say she feared rejection, more like she feared enslavement. Keep in mind that George never asked her about things, he decided on his own and dictated these things as both of their futures.

I would like to think of Beatrice as bird trying to free herself from her cage. If she were to go with George, she would be able to leave the island at the expense of her fate being decided by some guy she doesn't really like.



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I thought she would only wear wigs when impersonating Kanon or Beato... though this gives a completely new light to the fact that in the manga the one I call shapeless black Beato is apparently without hair...
Remember that Lion's hair is up to the middle of his back. If Yasu had that much hair, she wouldn't be able to hide it in her small wigs.
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Old 2012-05-02, 19:30   Link #28673
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Yeah, I meant that her jaw would be faked. I seem to have been having an hard time expressing myself lately. I was turning the chessboard over, so to speak.
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Old 2012-05-02, 22:04   Link #28674
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Or Maria's alive and still has her jaw. Another person's jaw + forged dental records to ID them as Maria's... Think it's far-fetched? Well, it's a trick RK07 actually used before in Higurashi so I wouldn't say it's out of the question. In fact, it calls attention to itself precisely because of that.
Entire family concocts an elaborate, "fake our own deaths and move to Hawaii with 50 tons of gold" to the specific exclusion of Ange, going so far as to acquire some child's jaw, and altering Maria's dental records, and planting it in the crater of their exploded mansion as they sail away into the sun?

I LOVE IT.

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I can accept "Asumu is Battler's mother." as referring to (effectively), an adoptive mother, but I can only accept "Battler was born of Ushiromiya Asumu" as "Asumu is Battler's gestatial mother.".
Well, I agree that it'd be best to not get too-too subjective with definitions. But ... like, do you accept that Kanon ceased to exist in the guest room? And for some brief period before that didn't exist anywhere at all?

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I wouldn't say she feared rejection, more like she feared enslavement. Keep in mind that George never asked her about things, he decided on his own and dictated these things as both of their futures.

I would like to think of Beatrice as bird trying to free herself from her cage. If she were to go with George, she would be able to leave the island at the expense of her fate being decided by some guy she doesn't really like.
You're of the opinion that Shannon doesn't really love George, is just using him as an out? That kinda ... would change some things.
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Old 2012-05-03, 03:05   Link #28675
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shapeless black Beato
I have no idea to what you are referring here
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Old 2012-05-03, 07:26   Link #28676
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Entire family concocts an elaborate, "fake our own deaths and move to Hawaii with 50 tons of gold" to the specific exclusion of Ange, going so far as to acquire some child's jaw, and altering Maria's dental records, and planting it in the crater of their exploded mansion as they sail away into the sun?

I LOVE IT.
For a long time I thought that Maria and possibly everyone else were still alive. You have to admit that the fact that the only evidence of a corpse that was ever found is a piece that can be used to find the owner's identity is quite the convenient coincedence.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:01   Link #28677
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Speaking of corpses, I always wondered.

Who do you guys think placed Kinzos corpse in the furnace in the games where it occurred? Shkannon certainly could have done it, but I feel like Krauss/Natsuhi could just have easily have done it themselves/ordered it. It certainly takes the stress off them having to protect the study.

More importantly, where the heck did they keep that thing for 2 years?
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:38   Link #28678
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For a long time I thought that Maria and possibly everyone else were still alive. You have to admit that the fact that the only evidence of a corpse that was ever found is a piece that can be used to find the owner's identity is quite the convenient coincedence.
With respect to Maria, let's just assume she is alive. How do you create the impression that she isn't with a dental record?
  • The whole thing is a lie; no jaw was ever found. Let's assume the endscroll wasn't just nonsense and that somebody did say a jaw was found and identified. The problem here is that the ep1 endscroll is unsourced (it doesn't even have an identifiable narrator), so it's hard to say "that character/narrator is lying" when there's no indication there even is one. Still, lying about the existence of a jawbone would at least allow Maria to keep hers. But it's also inherently falsifiable; just ask around and the police will probably say they never found any such thing.
  • The jawbone is an immensely convincing fake. I question how anyone would have this degree of artifice.
  • The jawbone is filled with Maria's baby teeth which "Beatrice" collected for this purpose. In that case, why Maria specifically? And would anyone actually be fooled by such a construction?
  • The jawbone was real, but wasn't Maria's; it was intentionally or coincidentally misidentified, or someone deliberately falsified the report. In this case, who did it and why, or how - if it was accidental - did they make that mistake?
  • Metal-Jaw Cyborg Maria.
It's not implausible, but still, putting the jawbone in an unsourced endscroll makes it a difficult thing to actually doubt without assuming the author was just making shit up. It's a bit different from the message bottles being a hoax in that the message bottles would be much harder to properly identify and there was some leeway in how those were reported. Even if we assume the jawbone was planted by someone, it still has to fool analysts somehow (who would have to have analyzed it to know it came from Maria).
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Old 2012-05-03, 10:24   Link #28679
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I had this in mind for quite a long time:

The name of the stillborn child of Asumu is "Ushiromiya Battler". So there are 2 Ushiromiya Battlers, but 1 of them died 18 years ago. With 18 years i mean of course from the standpoint of the Rokkenjima incident.
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Old 2012-05-03, 10:31   Link #28680
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In order to explain logically and consistently how Maria could be still alive you need to come up with a lot of unmentioned background set ups.

That is however the same that you needed to do to explain the "burned corpse" in Higurashi. Who the hell could have imagined that in the earlier episodes without going onto the field of wild speculations?

I always maintained that the "work" of the reader should be limited to pinpointing the hints and realizing the possibilities of certain plot points beforehand. Or in other words you can only guess what the author made guessable, if you go too far you are jumping from the field of speculations in that of fanfictions.

For example understanding that "Kinzo is already dead" or "shannon is kanon" are the only things you could rationally deduce as possibilities due to the hints given, but as for the exact reasons and the why, it wasn't really possible with a sensible margin of certainty.


That being said... I did try to imagine a logical explanations for Maria to be still alive as part of certain fan fiction idea that I had, but then discarded.
What I'm going to explain now is just a fan fictional idea that tries to explain how Maria could be alive logically within all that was said in the original story. I'm making this clear: I don't think this is what truly happened, nor I even remotedly think that this is what Ryuukishi had in mind. Okay?

So in a few points:

1) When Eva escaped to Kuwadorian, she wasn't alone, Maria was with her.
2) After the huge explosion happened the military reacted promptly and arrived to the site before everyone else. So unlike what was stated officially Eva and Maria were found almost instantly, but that wasn't disclosed until later
3) The military quickly realized what happened and the grave consequences that such story would cause if spread. They couldn't just tell that they let a madman hold onto a secret military base and 900 tons of explosive that they (whops) forgot to retrieve, and in the confines of the Tokyo district no less.
4) So the secret services promptly came up with a cover up story to pass it as an "unfortunate accident", most likely a volcanic eruption, seeing as how the izu islands are volcanic and all.
5) That was easily done, now as for the witnesses... after discussing with Eva they found that she was cooperative, she actually didn't want to tell a thing of what really happened on that island. Obviously they had suspicions on her. I mean... how in the world she conveniently escaped the explosion while almost the entirety of her family was left behind? Something must have happened. But as long as she was willing to keep silent about certain military secrets, they were more than willing to let every suspicions drop.
6) Now as for Maria... while Eva was willing to take costudy, common practice dictates that when you find a child you try to contact his parents first. So they retraced Maria's father and they found him in europe or america (whatever) married with another woman.
7) Surprisingly enough the man once contacted declared that he was more than willing to welcome Maria into his family. Why? Because the woman he ditched Rosa for turned out to be infertile and they have been trying to adopt a child for a long time without success. What more "fortunate" event could they wish for?
8) For the military that was a win situation, the less witnessess around the better it was, Eva was cooperative, but Maria was a wild card. Getting her out of the country was just perfect. But then why not make it even "more perfect"? They completely erased Maria's existence and replaced it with a new identity exclusively tied with her natural father and the foster mother. Even if she later tried to expose the truth once grown up, she'd have no way to prove she was Maria Ushiromiya, and she'd be just labeled as yet another rokkenjima mistery maniac trying to draw attention. Obviously her father was "adequately compensated" on top of the child, and in the first place he was more than glad to sever any connections he and Maria had with Rosa. Those guys even justified the whole thing from a moral stand point, because "it is a lot healthier for this child to grow up without the burden of this messed up tragedy on her life". Should they let the general puplic know that she was still alive, as one of the two witnessess, she'd keep being pestered by people and reporters about what happened on that day. Apart from how bad that woud have been for Maria, they also absolutely didn't want anyone to ask her questions, because she wasn't exactly capable of keeping secrets. She would have ended up telling sensible informations that they tried to keep under cover.
9) The last problem they faced was the lack of corpses. In all honesty they themselves couldn't be sure how many died and if there were other survivors, as unlikely as it was (and we know it actually happened) there were too many unanswered questions about the whole deal to be sure of anything. So they fabricated an evidence to at least one corpse. Why Maria? Because they were certain of her whereabouts and they already tampered with her records enough. What if they forged an evidence for... let's say... Battler, and then he showed in front of some reporter showing how he was still alive and well? Better if it was someone whose fate was known and they could control.


So that's basically it. It's not 100% perfect since there isn't really such a need to create fake proofs for dead bodies, but I think it generally works enough.

There is a plus point on that. This scenario can give an explanation regarding Maria's diary and the stake of Mammon. Ange was simply told that they retrieved those stuff from Maria's house, in reality they ended up somewhere in Eva's house because in all the mess that happened Maria forgot to take her purse oversea. The purse obviously contained her diary and somehow even one of the stakes. Eva not knowing what to do with all that stuff placed them among the various other belongins of her deceased relatives. Ange later found them while rummaging between them in the attempt to reminisce the lost ones.
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