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Old 2012-05-03, 07:24   Link #1
Last Sinner
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'I'm right, therefore you're wrong for not agreeing!' culture

This is something I've been concerned about for a while and some people have spoken to me about privately out of fear of being hated on. I've reached the point where I want to talk about this openly because I think that particularly over the last year, it has become a bigger problem and are making some of the more prominent/seasoned people on AS uncomfortable. I'm not going to name names - if people agree with what I have to say, they can do so themselves. If they don't, that's their right and choice.

When I first began posting regularly on AS, it was during the airing of Code Geass R2. What made me like the forums at that point in time was that while people could get into somewhat heated debates on their opinion, they would still respect the right of others to have a somewhat different opinion, if not a complete opposite of theirs, yet still openly talk about how they felt about the latest episode of a certain character. C.C. and Kallen fans got along, Suzaku dislikers and likers could be openly frank. But there wasn't that sense of 'You're disagreeing with me, therefore you're wrong! GTFO and stay out!' feel. Having a different approach to a title isn't necessarily bad. Not being a hardcore fan of a show and being in the 7-8/10 grade range doesn't mean you don't have a valid opinion.

For a few years, that feeling seemed to prevail in specific threads. But sometime last year, it changed. I never set foot into the Madoka threads because they seemed to verge on mortal enemies and I'd get told of the bannings and disgruntled people from there. Move to October and the Fate/Zero episode threads. What startled me was apparently being an 8/10 fan isn't good enough and that one should die for not rating it at least 9/10...or that unless you were unquestionably loyal to Rider, you were a fool and automatically wrong. That kind of behaviour disgusted me to no end and it reduced my enjoyment of the show - I still haven't watched any S2 due to the amount of poor behaviour I saw in there.

Come 2012, the Nisemonogatari threads. I didn't like Bakemonogatari so I avoided Nise threads. I had a good number of people privately contact me and say that they were being targetted, called out and having private discussions revealed in full in Nise threads....What kind of behaviour is that? I'm sure several of the mods and other people around know I was vocal for a short while about the show outside of Nise threads. I did that because the traffic was very one way - 'Like this show or die' seemed to be the way. Any popular show - no matter how popular it is - has valid criticisms. It didn't seem to be the case.

And now this season. I've had people contact me via online messaging telling me they're being targetted, hated on and neg rep spammed in droves in the Hyou-Ka thread for not being a hardcore fanatic or unquestionably loyal to KyoAni. Since when did a title thread specifically belong to the hardcore fans? Since when was a 'I like this show but not quite as much as you do' become grounds to be a murder victim? People who like the show should be able to post in the thread and be honest, regardless of their degree of liking it.

I know some people think I automatically hate modern anime. I don't. 2010 was one of my favourite years ever. This April season has been a great time for me. What I am NOT liking in recent times is the amount of people going into World War 3 mode the moment someone disagrees with them and starting a killing spree on anyone contrary to their opinion. I don't like what is happening within recent fandoms and how they think anyone who disagrees with their opinion automatically deserves to burn. That doesn't make for a healthy anime fanbase or collective community at all.

Simply put, I'm avoiding posting in a good number of threads I'd like to talk about because I know the moment I do, some people will go up in arms to an unnecessary degree in the thread. I don't post in threads about shows I don't like - there's nothing to gain from instigating inevitable trouble. But surely having a reasonable like for a show doesn't mean you can't post in its threads. Lately, I feel I can't do that at all. And I have been contacted by a fair amount of people - some with incredibly high rep counts - that share that sentiment.

In short - can we have something done about fandoms that are going too far? I don't like being unable to talk about shows except via VMs. And there are more people out there than you think that feel the same way. They are worried they will be permanently ostracized for speaking up. I don't like that at all. I don't expect people to agree with me. I would like to think people would have the ability to respect a valid opinion and the right to have it. That's all I'm asking for.
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Old 2012-05-03, 07:46   Link #2
hyl
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You can't really do much about that. There will always be fans who seriously defend their favorite shows against the regular viewers. Happens to me lots of times.
But in my opinion you have the same right to critize a show, just like fans can defend them. Don't be deterred by all of those fans to post your own opinion of the show. If you do that, then you are exactly doing what they want you to do.

Well this of course does apply to serious discussions/opinions though. If you go to thread and simply say" this show sux because it looks like k-on", then you will get flamed by fans and non fans alike


As for neg reps, you really should ignore it unless it contains insults or something similar.
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Old 2012-05-03, 07:49   Link #3
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I rarely ever step into Episode Discussion Threads so this phenomenon is practically invisible to me.
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Old 2012-05-03, 07:56   Link #4
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Nothing is extreme when it comes to fans who are dead serious and devoted to their shows. You can hardly expect them to remain objective when it comes to their favourite animes. When subjectivism comes into play, i.e.personal feelings, taste or opinions, discussions will be influenced by it. And thus the hatred, heated discussions and neg reps. It is hard to maintain your composure when certain people just seem to shut off opinions from other people, but realistically speaking, is it really possible for mods and admins to do something about this extreme aspect of fandom?
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:03   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
It is hard to maintain your composure when certain people just seem to shut off opinions from other people, but realistically speaking, is it really possible for mods and admins to do something about this extreme aspect of fandom?
If they can, please, for the love of god... please do something. I'm getting a lot of hot flames like this one just because I said I didn't want to watch Madoka. And next thing I knew, the whole fanbase is lining up to burn me and flaming me to my internet death

Sorry for being dramatic, but yes, please do something about this.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:05   Link #6
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranran View Post
If they can, please, for the love of god... please do something. I'm getting a lot of hot flames like this one just because I said I didn't want to watch Madoka. And next thing I knew, the whole fanbase is lining up to burn me and flaming me to my internet death

Sorry for being dramatic, but yes, please do something about this.
And what stops you from ignoring all the people who wanted to make you watch Madoka? Like in my case, i haven't watched K-on or Haruhi due to my other interests at that time of airing. However I am not going to watch those series now, regardless what people say how good it is.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:07   Link #7
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I'm somehow a regular resident on The Idolm@ster and Smile Precure threads, haven't felt the 'I'm right, therefore you're wrong for not agreeing!' "culture" in those places.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:08   Link #8
ranran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
And what stops you from ignoring all the people who wanted to make you watch Madoka?
Nothing? I'm still ignoring them. The more they do that the more I don't want to watch it. If they just leave me alone, I might pick that up a year or three from now. But the more they keep this up, the more I don't want to watch it.

But it's not about this, it's just about the culture in a whole. It makes discussing really hard when this applies.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:09   Link #9
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranran View Post
If they can, please, for the love of god... please do something. I'm getting a lot of hot flames like this one just because I said I didn't want to watch Madoka. And next thing I knew, the whole fanbase is lining up to burn me and flaming me to my internet death

Sorry for being dramatic, but yes, please do something about this.
The mods and admins could delete posts they deem inappropriate, but those hardcore Madoka fans could still send PMs to you. You still have to taste those ugly flames.

Best thing you can do is to reply as civil as possible, and if those peeps are still being irrational, then ignore it. Sometimes, ignoring is the only method to deal with crazy obsessed folks.


Edit: If you are talking about culture in general, then it is even harder to change it. Could be possible, but will take a long time to change that mindset.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:11   Link #10
ranran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUAHAHAHAHAHA View Post
The mods and admins could delete posts they deem inappropriate, but those hardcore Madoka fans could still send PMs to you. You still have to taste those ugly flames.

Best thing you can do is to reply as civil as possible, and if those peeps are still being irrational, then ignore it. Sometimes, ignoring is the only method to deal with crazy obsessed folks.


Edit: If you are talking about culture in general, then it is even harder to change it. Could be possible, but will take a long time to change that mindset.
Ignoring is the best option. I'll probably evade any thread and discussion related to Madoka until the fire dies down. Arguments like this will only hurt people.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-05-03 at 18:29.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:14   Link #11
MUAHAHAHAHAHA
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Btw, a question to Last Sinner. Do you have any suggestion as to what could be done to change this situation? Surely you must have some ideas.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:22   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranran View Post
Ignoring is the best option.
Yes, that is true but if one is kinda sensitive in taking attacks, its quite depressing when you know its just an opinion and opinion varies.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:27   Link #13
ranran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Yes, that is true but if one is kinda sensitive in taking attacks, its quite depressing when you know its just an opinion and opinion varies.
This ^ and your cute avatar makes me want to give you a hug xDD

But no, seriously, you're right. It's depressing and it can even be called bullying. But hey, best to ignore it. If you engage them in a discussion that will only bring forth a fat load of problems.

Hence why we hope the mods/admins can do something about this.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:31   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranran View Post
This ^ and your cute avatar makes me want to give you a hug xDD
Friendly hug only and not because it anything related for being a Lolicon

We can always hope. MOD will always be there. . . .
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:31   Link #15
hyl
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There is still a rule that says :

"1.2 Do not insult or harass other members

Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars. "

So if you think that you are litterly harrassed by people who keep messaging you to watch it, you can try to ask a mod to see if it falls under harrasement.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:34   Link #16
ranran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
There is still a rule that says :

"1.2 Do not insult or harass other members

Insults, harassment, flaming, trolling, baiting or other similar abusive behaviour towards other members of The Forum will not be tolerated. This includes the use of "retort images". Images used to convey a "come back" message (i.e. to "retort") are forbidden in all areas of The Forum, they are often offensive and only serve to ignite flame wars. "

So if you think that you are litterly harrassed by people who keep messaging you to watch it, you can try to ask a mod to see if it falls under harrasement.
Ah yea, but it's not that bad yet. I can still take it, but if things get messy I'll be sure to notify a mod
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:34   Link #17
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It's funny how the comments made by people who vehemently defend their favorite anime are often a lot more offensive and vitriolic than the comments that spurned them. These hateful comments sometimes attack the original poster, calling them a horrible person, a tasteless fag, et cetera, when the original poster usually just criticized the anime without pointing fingers at its fans. It's hypocritical.

This won't filter all of the hate, but you could always disable your reputation, which would prevent you from seeing the recent rep you received on your control panel.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:39   Link #18
Arabesque
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Originally Posted by Last Sinner View Post
C.C. and Kallen fans got along,
Before things started getting really sour after the shows end, and the CC and Kallen fans were at each others throats. There is a reason why AS takes an anti-shipping stance policy, and the events in the Code Geass (and I suppose Macross) sub-forums are one of those reasons.

For your actual point, I think it's more of an issue with posters etiquette than anything else really. I've encountered this issue more with ''fanatics'' rather than ''fandoms'' as a whole, especially around these forums (AS is actually one of the few anime forums I still frequent and post in, thanks to the fact that the poster culture here is much better than anywhere else), and while I haven't seen that high level of attitude around the majority of threads I go to, I can agree that, such in the case of shows like Nisemonogatari where the general post traffic tends to lean strongly in the ''constant praise'' direction I find it difficult, at time even scary, to post anything, be it constructive criticism or even positive things about the show (since it's not positive enough, or it's the wrong reason to like the episode etc.). Not out of fear of getting neg reps (I don't really care) but more about the thread devolving into a nonsensical argument that has little if anything to do with the show in question, and ultimately end with insults and bitter feelings. Even if I have a pretty tough skin, I don't come here to pick fights, but to have fun and post my impressions about the things I like and see what others think of these subjects, have discussions (positive or negative) about it and what not.

The only thing I think that could be done is to either just post what you want without caring what others think (as long as I'm posting my impressions and I use perfectly logical arguments, why would you care if I like the show or not?), but them on ignore (or simple ignore them) or if they continue to harass you, report them to a mod. Other than that I'm not really sure what other ways are there to tackle this problem, since the very way the sub-forums are structured it's made so that fans who love a certain show enough would eventually have a place large enough for them to talk more about it, so they would by default have a pretty large fanbase who share a similar opinion and some fanatics will expect that everyone will have to agree with it, like their word is gospel or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
I'm somehow a regular resident on The Idolm@ster and Smile Precure threads, haven't felt the 'I'm right, therefore you're wrong for not agreeing!' "culture" in those places.
Part of the reason is that we these fandoms around here are rather small and the shows themselves don't really attract that sort of attitude in the first place (I've been frequenting these threads since the star, and I got the impression that Idolm@ster and Precure fans are actually rather nice ) In much larger threads, or in very popular sub forums, it's really hard to ignore it.
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Old 2012-05-03, 09:51   Link #19
j0x
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its not just anime fans of animesuki that you will encounter that, even on other anime forums youll get extreme arguments for the sake of being a fan of the anime you/they like

even in real life, be it sports fans and move fans and even politics fans you can see this extreme arguments too

but i agree with you, i like Guilty Crown and Star Driver and always see the weekly threads here on animesuki to get more insight about those anime but you cannot escape seeing arguments that goes nowhere, ive been on some arguments too defending Guilty Crown and Star Driver here on animesuki, but after those heated arguments and reading the hates of those anime it lessens my enjoyment of those shows.

and now as much as possible i only read anime/manga related information here on animesuki forums, i do not bother replying to subjective replies anymore, i try to be as objective as possible just like how i do on other forums im in

i guess your right that the REPUTATION system has given more bad than good on the health of the debates here

P.S. and to make this thread not go the personal clashing route i suggest people to not name anyone they are describing as an example XD
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Old 2012-05-03, 09:56   Link #20
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This has been a big problem indeed. This "positivism" movement has been going for a while now and it's very frustrating. Obvious examples include Oreimo about a year and a half ago, Madoka about a year ago (even though it was #2 show of 2011 for me, I still thought that discussions were rather disgusting at times), Fate/Zero a few seasons ago, Nisemonogatari last season and Hyou-ka this season.

In fact, recently, on a certain thread it's gotten to a point where a mod (will not name) implicitly attacked me and in summary gave me this "if you don't like this show, then stop posting" attitude. I mean sure, it's somewhat understandable (though it shouldn't be tolerated) that some fanatics can't help themselves but attack people who criticise their treasure, but a mod being defensive over a show they like even after giving reasons. That one just takes the cake for crossing the line for me. It took me completely by surprise as well.

Yes, I can be blunt and I tend to hyperbole, but you know I do my fair share of "fanboying" too. Don't believe me? Go look at anything True Tears, PA Works, noitamina or Mari Okada related for example. Guaranteed, a large chunk of posts are by me. But the difference is I don't go on a retaliation spree when someone decides to diss them. In fact I jokingly diss them too when I know something that is related to them is obviously questionable.

Example: Mari Okada. She has done some excellent works and her subtle style of drama writing (when she actually tries, which is seldom these days) are some of the best in the industry. The problem is however is that lately she's gotten a bit of an ego and a few screws loose inside her head and wrote complete overwrought melodrama bombshells such as Black Rock Shooter. Same with PA Works. Another visually looked pretty bad compared to their other works and the latest Tari Tari PV looks like a economic version of Hanasaku Iroha. What did I do? Well I decided to mockingly diss them (whilst still being a massive fan of PA in general) instead of being "butthurt" at other posters negative comments.

Compare that to a situation this season where I explicitly said "Hyouka visuals are great, but it's nothing revolutionary as its visuals are comparable to what Guilty Crown and Hanasaku Iroha were last year". What did I get? Fanatics getting all angry that I didn't praise Kyoani enough and making implied remarks that I didn't know anything about how to assess -animation- and thus should stfu, when I was talking about visuals (which also include character designs, background art and coloring as well as animation) in the first place. Good grief! I even said that the show whilst boring so far, was not bad in any means. Heck my current avatar is a scene in the ED of Hyou-ka.

Same thing happened when I criticized the Nisemonogatari toothbrush episode and said that the last few episodes of Fate/Zero S1 where I criticized it for being badly paced and a bad way to end up a season (please don't bring up this split cour business...). The only popular show that didn't involve critics being attacked to bits was Guilty Crown, because it was "Standard" and about 70% of AS disliked it, so it was "Okay" and "socially acceptable" to hate on it. Yay for only being allowed to criticize if it conforms to popular trends and attitudes?

Anyways, after a good week or two of thinking I'm largely done with serious "negative" discussions on Animesuki. You can't have a serious negative discussion about anything that is popular on Animesuki anymore aside from designated hate threads (e.g. Anime you hate that everyone likes) without having fanatics hit you with scattershots at your negative remarks be it constructive or not. I'll just stick with positive discussions largely for now. Or posts that involve one liners that use the template "Omg how Moe was X" or "Dem/Dat Y".

Which reminds me, if one line negative remarks aren't tolerated, why are one line "fratboy" fan remarks tolerated when imo it's just as inconstructive. It's hypocritical. Both types of posts should be moderated or both shouldn't be moderated. If I had a preference, it will be latter since I never take one-line posts seriously and they don't annoy me.
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