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Old 2012-05-03, 10:41   Link #21
Triple_R
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I agree with a lot of what Last Sinner wrote.

I think that part of the issue is a common desire for viewer comments on a show to be overwhelmingly, if not entirely, positive.

I often see posts like "What is with all the hate this show is getting?!". Then I'll go back over the last page or two of the series thread or episode thread for that show, and I might see one blunt (but short) very critical post, and a couple more mildly critical posts, but the solid majority of posts being complimentary or even praising of the show. If a show is getting 60 to 70% praise, and maybe 20% critique, is that really such a big deal? Does that really constitute "a lot of hate"? If you're a big fan of the show there's still plenty of people agreeing with you, so I can't see why more people can't just let some of the less complimentary feedback slide.

Honestly, even for shows I love (like Madoka Magica), I like seeing at least some diversity of opinion on the show since that makes for better series discussion, imo. So even for shows I love, all-praise all-the-time is very boring to me.


I think that if more people could just accept that every show is going to have at least a few critics, and that's no big deal, then discussion here would be a bit better (it's usually very good as it is, in fairness).

I will say that on some shows I'm leery of giving even mildly critical feedback because that seems to create contentious tangents, or even mild flamewars.

I honestly wonder where this seeming expectation of all-praise all-the-time is coming from. Obviously, most if not all people here are watching shows in the hopes of enjoying them. But hope doesn't always become reality, and so people will sometimes be disappointed in a show that they watched.

People here almost always want to like the shows that they watch. So when they make critical points it's not to pick on the fans (at least not usually), but it's rather to simply express their dissatisfaction and what caused it.

I don't see why that alone should be a problem, although for some shows, it does appear to be.
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Old 2012-05-03, 10:49   Link #22
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I agree with a lot of what Last Sinner wrote.

I think that part of the issue is a common desire for viewer comments on a show to be overwhelmingly, if not entirely, positive.

I often see posts like "What is with all the hate this show is getting?!". Then I'll go back over the last page or two of the series thread or episode thread for that show, and I might see one blunt (but short) very critical post, and a couple more mildly critical posts, but the solid majority of posts being complimentary or even praising of he show. If a show is getting 60 to 70% praise, and maybe 20% critique, is that really such a big deal? Does that really constitute "a lot of hate"? If you're a big fan of a show there's still plenty of people agreeing with you, so I can't see why more people can't just let some of the less complimentary feedback slide.

Honestly, even for shows I love (like Madoka Magica), I like seeing at least some diversity of opinion on the show since that makes for better series discussion, imo. So even for shows I love, all-praise all-the-time is very boring to me.


I think that if more people could just accept that every show is going to have at least a few critics, and that's no big deal, then discussion here would be a bit better (it's usually very good as it is, in fairness).

I will say that on some shows I'm leery of giving even mildly critical feedback because that seems to create contentious tangents, or even mild flamewars.

I honestly wonder where this seeming expectation of all-praise all-the-time is coming from. Obviously, most if not all people here are watching shows in the hopes of enjoying them. But hope doesn't always become reality, and so people will sometimes be disappointed in a show that they watched.

People here almost always want to like the shows that they watch. So when they make critical points it's not to pick on the fans (at least not usually), but it's rather to simply express their dissatisfaction and what caused it.

I don't see why that alone should be a problem, although for some shows, it does appear to be.
I did mention earlier that you can't do something about it. Like others have mentioned in this thread, this problem applies for pretty much everything in real life l (like j0x said for sports). It's silly to impose rules to restrict the opinions of people (for either the fans or the critics of the show) and it's probably even harder to enforce them.
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Old 2012-05-03, 10:53   Link #23
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Yeah totally agree guys, I mean look @ the early Gundam AGE episode threads! People who didn't like it were "told" to leave the threads by people who were posting for it, lol! I mean what's the point of discussion when you only want to hear one thing?
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Old 2012-05-03, 12:49   Link #24
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by DemiSoda View Post
In fact, recently, on a certain thread it's gotten to a point where a mod (will not name) implicitly attacked me and in summary gave me this "if you don't like this show, then stop posting" attitude.
Repeatedly posting that you dislike a show after each episode is bound to get you in trouble. I don't know if that's what happened here, but I've seen it in other series discussion threads. It's one thing to criticize a particular episode on occasion, or the entire premise of a show once or twice, but I've seen people post routinely from week to week just to repeat that they don't like a show. That seems like trolling to me. If you don't like a show, that's fine, but repeatedly stating your dislike for it really has little merit.

I've never really understood why people repeatedly watch a show that they claim not to like. Why not just stop watching it? The only reason I can see is to gather material for yet another critical post in the series thread. Then again, I never watch more than a handful of shows in any season; I find the vast bulk of contemporary anime generic and not worth my time. The discussion threads for the types of shows I do watch (currently Sakamichi no Apollon, Tsuritama, and Uchuu Kyoudai) rarely if ever generate the sorts of vitriolic postings I see in threads for shows like Madoka. The shows I watch generally attract the older members here whose self-esteem does not depend on abusing others from behind an anonymous Internet identity.

I've found that manga readers can be especially annoying when the anime adaptation doesn't live up to their standards, whatever those might be. I stopped following threads for shows like Claymore for exactly that reason.

Also there is that "Report Post" button (the icon with the exclamation point) on each and every posting. If you think someone is being abusive, report him or her to the moderators. That's why the "Report Post" button is there.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:44   Link #25
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I haven't encountered this problem a lot since I don't frequent weekly discussion threads that often, but it's cropped up with surprising frequency when I have.

I've long argued that anime fans need to watch their public behaviour because it can reflect on the fandom as a whole. Well, that applies to interactions with other factions within the anime fandom too. I for one prefer not to represent fans of the shows I like as insular, thin skinned, and fanatical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I did mention earlier that you can't do something about it. Like others have mentioned in this thread, this problem applies for pretty much everything in real life l (like j0x said for sports). It's silly to impose rules to restrict the opinions of people (for either the fans or the critics of the show) and it's probably even harder to enforce them.
You seriously think that it would be hard to enforce?
I for one have no trouble telling what the intent behind replying "if you don't like the show then stop watching" or "what's with all the hate" to every negative critique of a show is. It's intended to harass the opposition into submission and has no place in legitimate discussion.
The mods here have often punished critics for rant-ish or repetitious posts that are insulting or provocative to fans. It's time for the other shoe to drop.

They'll just go to PM? Sure, but it's no longer public. And there's a forward button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranran View Post
Edit: and here we go, the neg repping have started. I wish these people would leave names because I'd really like to talk to them.
Clearly, these people don't follow the "What Would Rider (Fate/Zero version, of course) Do?" doctrine.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:56   Link #26
Akito Kinomoto
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Last Sinner, I really don’t think the problem of people on AnimeSuki trending toward positive discussions has increased in quantity as much as you have said. Before even seeing this as an issue, you have to recognize that the instances of bad behavior revolving around the series’ detractors and supporters are generally limited to a small part of the audience and the experience regarding criticisms and the responses toward it are not ubiquitous.

It’s only really a small part of the audience that engages in bad behavior regarding criticisms toward a show. Most people usually don’t care enough about their favorite anime being attacked to the point where they’ll retaliate as a response to said detraction toward the work. However, you then reach that small percentage of people who don’t handle negative comments about a show they like very well—I would know as I was one of them—and then the discussion about the series can quickly become hostile. The lack of judgment to formulate a proper reply toward a show’s detraction becomes further exacerbated by the fact that there exists that other percentage of people who really do post on a show’s dedicated forum or thread with the sole intention of irritating its fans. The situation becomes worse still because, as I’ve unfortunately observed, the trollish attackers can become very subtle while the fanatics tend to remain conspicuous and it leads the latter group of people to be singled out while the former group of people play the role of “innocent victim.” However, despite how severe all of the aforementioned seems to be it’s only a small percentage of people involved in the hostilities; on average, AnimeSuki has around 150 members logged in at a time and if even a third of those users were involved in the entirety of the positivism fiasco then the site would be much worse. The small group of people that misbehave tend to get noticed a lot more than the mild-mannered citizens.

Likewise, hostile responses toward someone who makes negative comments about a show or even any part of the series are not ubiquitous. Out of all the shows I’ve ever criticized on its sub-forum or thread, none of them were met with any extreme retaliation, some sparked more curiosity than anything else, while others were received quite well. The only response resembling—and I’m using resembling very loosely here—an attack to a negative comment I made was at, of all places, the Fate/Zero forums. Maybe it’s just our difference in luck but I have yet to experience any crap from fans whose shows I criticized. Even if one person gets reprimanded for criticizing a work this doesn’t necessarily mean the other person who criticizes a show will be told to GTFO as well.

I’m not going to deny the advocacy for positivism can make for stagnant discussion but it’s not as numerous as you present it to be. Noticeable yes but not numerous; for example, if I throw a fishing net and catch a three-headed eel then what’s my conclusion? Do all eels have three heads or did I just happen to find a three-headed eel? Likewise, I don’t find the more adamant fans of a show to be entirely at fault concerning the issue either. My only suggestion for this problem is to take a step back and realize that vocal minorities are vocal.

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Old 2012-05-03, 14:00   Link #27
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Whoa, it's that bad?

I can't say I'm absolutely innocent in what the OP accuses, but this is the internet, and there is the whole "elitist" gang who hates for the sake of hating. And after a while, you become sensitive to any provocative word. I'd say this whole "I'm right therefore you're wrong" thing originates from them, not the fandom. The fandom is only reacting, and in turn, you and all other good men are caught in their backlash.
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Old 2012-05-03, 14:16   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Out of all the shows I’ve ever criticized on its sub-forum or thread, none of them were met with any extreme retaliation, some sparked more curiosity than anything else, while others were received quite well. The only response resembling—and I’m using resembling very loosely here—an attack to a negative comment I made was at, of all places, the Fate/Zero forums. Maybe it’s just our difference in luck but I have yet to experience any crap from fans whose shows I criticized.
Maybe it's because your writing style, especially for reviews, appears to be neutral and calm in nature. I also notice that you tend to stress the objective qualities of anime much more than other people. In other words, you do less ranting, and more explaining, and whatever ranting you do is well-worded. People here probably aren't as provoked by your posts as much as those of other members here.
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Old 2012-05-03, 14:18   Link #29
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Old 2012-05-03, 14:41   Link #30
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post


You seriously think that it would be hard to enforce?
I for one have no trouble telling what the intent behind replying "if you don't like the show then stop watching" or "what's with all the hate" to every negative critique of a show is. It's intended to harass the opposition into submission and has no place in legitimate discussion.
The mods here have often punished critics for rant-ish or repetitious posts that are insulting or provocative to fans. It's time for the other shoe to drop.

It depends on if there will be new rules and how it's written.
It's pretty difficult to make a rule in which both sides (critics and fans) have to agree on without one side getting the short end of the stick.

You can't make a new rule that says something like this : "People are not allowed to criticize negative experiences from an anime". Because the fans also have the right to say why they think why the critic is wrong.
Like in a real life debate or discussions , both sides can present arguments and counter arguments. If one side can't fairly present his opinion/statement then the whole debate/discussion is pointless.
Of course not everyone will react to the criticisms in a civil way, but if it goes to far you can report that person for insults or harrasement.

You are somewhat sounding like the "Petition:Ban negative Utopian views" suggestion thread from a few months ago but instead of targeting the critics, you are targeting the fans.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:11   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Yeah totally agree guys, I mean look @ the early Gundam AGE episode threads! People who didn't like it were "told" to leave the threads by people who were posting for it, lol! I mean what's the point of discussion when you only want to hear one thing?
Actually they were asked to either stop spamming the same complaints over and over again like, "Hurr kiddie designs this show sucks durr!" or to stop posting altogether if that's all they were going to contribute to the threads week in and week out. Huge difference between just posting about how you don't like something in the show and being critical about it and outright hijacking a thread. Many mods also agreed it had to be stopped in order for the thread to move forward.

And yeah regarding the thread topic itself, this sort of attitude is pretty terrible, but thankfully I don't see it around here all that much and when I do I'm quick to point it out. If people can make a post and back up their claims and not be a total asshole about it and generalize their opinion like it's the only possible one then I have literally no problem with people disagreeing with me on something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Oh the stories I could tell about this in the Code Geass forum. Shame I'm not allowed to anymore.
Oh my good lord. That forum is legendary. Only sub-forum on this site that regularly reads like a 4chan or LUE. Just jam packed with spam, arrogance, general anger and spite. Not sure how things are going to work out once that OVA rolls around. They're going to have to clean it up something fierce most likely.

By the way I don't agree with Last Sinner on much most of the time, but bro, I totally sympathize with you when it come to this issue and those specific topics/threads/shows/fans. Those are some tough TOUGH threads to not hold the majority opinion on and expect to feel welcomed in the thread. As Zac Bertschy of ANN once described (I know a lot of people dislike him, but I find him to be on point a lot of the time) in those cases it's like a deep partisanship and unless you exactly parrot what the majority holds to be those shows specific qualities you're almost guaranteed to get an earful.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-05-03 at 15:21.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:11   Link #32
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I do think the phenomenon described by last sinner exists but however is limited to shows that involve a massive fanbase (in the exemples you gave there's SHAFT,type moon,kyoani) where people get emotionally attached.
Whereas on less high profile shows I think people might not be so attached and therefore more open to critism.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:26   Link #33
AbZeroNow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I do think the phenomenon described by last sinner exists but however is limited to shows that involve a massive fanbase (in the exemples you gave there's SHAFT,type moon,kyoani) where people get emotionally attached.
Whereas on less high profile shows I think people might not be so attached and therefore more open to critism.
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. Most of the series discussion threads I have posted regularly to had various viewpoints about series. I remember when I was posting some opinions contrary to the majority for Ano Natsu de Matteru and the discussion remained pretty civil. And it ranks as my 2nd or 3rd favorite out of the Winter 2012 series too.

I suppose if I watched Hyouka, I would post in that discussion thread, and I would have said people ought to be treated civilly that post contrary opinions to what the majority says, and the point of series discussion thread is to have meaningful dialogue, and part of any good discussion is allowing for differing viewpoints.

And I can also fanboy myself for Sakamichi no Apollon, or Uchuu Kyoudai or Haiyore! Nyaruko-san but I always respect the opinions of those critical of the shows I love.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:38   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I do think the phenomenon described by last sinner exists but however is limited to shows that involve a massive fanbase (in the exemples you gave there's SHAFT,type moon,kyoani) where people get emotionally attached.
Whereas on less high profile shows I think people might not be so attached and therefore more open to critism.
Those aren't shows though, they're anime studios (and one VN studio) but I get what you're saying. To be honest, as silly as it probably is since I'm not even really a fan of most of their shows anyway, I kind of dread whenever a new show by one of those studios comes out if only because it usually leads to a general upswing of this sort of posting behavior on these forums. For this reason I don't think it's any real surprise that I'm happening to see this issue get brought up right as the latest show by Kyoto Animation in Hyouka has started airing.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:43   Link #35
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Originally Posted by ranran View Post
If they can, please, for the love of god... please do something. I'm getting a lot of hot flames like this one just because I said I didn't want to watch Madoka. And next thing I knew, the whole fanbase is lining up to burn me and flaming me to my internet death

Sorry for being dramatic, but yes, please do something about this.
Lol... you did notice that they were only lightly teasing you on the Madoka thing?
I mean you came in and basicly said "I did not watch Madoka, but...". Some people can't resist if handed such an opportunity on a plate...



The whole subforum/specific series thread thing tends to create an athmosphere that says 'fans only'. This came up in feedback before.
Of course that is not correct, but it seems to be the idea most fans get from having 'their own' thread.
If you tresspass on fan territory they will attack.

Most of these threads are a mystery to me anyways.
What are they discussing in there? You watch the series and that usually stands for it's own.
There is not much to discuss, unless you did not understand some parts and need to ask for advise.
Unless there is a meta discussion going on, I feel unable to make any use of these threads.
Worse if the series is based on manga source material, in which case anything specific gets dominated by people who make suspiciously accurate predictions about the future plotline...
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Old 2012-05-03, 16:05   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
Those aren't shows though, they're anime studios (and one VN studio) but I get what you're saying.
Just to clarify what I wanted to say,I meant all the animes last sinner mentioned were tied to one of those studios.
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Old 2012-05-03, 16:17   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Most of these threads are a mystery to me anyways. What are they discussing in there? You watch the series and that usually stands for it's own. There is not much to discuss, unless you did not understand some parts and need to ask for advise.
I can think of threads that enhanced my appreciation of a series. The Moribito thread had a long and rewarding discussion about Balsa's relationship to Chagum after the conflict between them near the end. I've been re-reading the thread for NHK ni Youkoso! recently as well and found it to have some sincere, well-grounded differences of opinion about the characters' motivations, Misaki's in particular of course. I've also found it useful to hear our Asian members' impressions of the fraternal issues in Space Brothers. I quickly grew tired of hearing Mutta talk about how the older brother must surpass the younger one, but our Asian colleagues said this touched on deeply-held cultural norms in those societies that I have no contact with as an American. I've also just finished re-watching Ergo Proxy and found some of the commentators in the thread for that show quite helpful in understanding what is a very confusing story and one full of references to philosophy and symbolism.
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Old 2012-05-03, 17:30   Link #38
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I don't think it should be any surprise that AnimeSuki folks can be touchy sometimes, humans are hormonal, irritable creatures that constantly grate on each other's nerves (which is why there's often some sort of conflict at family get-togethers or any other large gathering, and part of why school is such a worthless shithole during middle school and high), people have probably been getting bitchy with each other over stories since the beginning of fiction, the human race might be better off if we all just stuck to one-on-one interaction

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-05-03 at 18:38.
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Old 2012-05-03, 17:33   Link #39
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Actually, the Fate/Zero threads were relatively fine, and Madoka threads were actually really not that horrific either although there was a lot of debate about the anime itself, which is the whole point. I guess there was one set of major hiccups.

However, it varies from topic to topic, and there are definitely certain subforums where I would recommend gathering all the sub tanks and heart tanks before going in. In general, it's a bit dicey to voice a negative opinion in series with established fanbases, and adaptations increase the difficulty quite a bit, since people will pull it out as some kind of bible.

But that's not really the problem. It goes both ways. If someone spams the same thing about why a show sucks every week, then they really have no reason to be here. But at the same time, people need to understand that a lot of people don't hate shows or like shows wholesale. There's a bunch of 5-7/10 rating people that watch it because they have something to gain from watching it, and don't like other things. The constant barrage of strawman insults from either side is no good, either saying people who don't like the show have no taste or elitists, or saying people who like the show shouldn't be liking this kind of garbage doesn't provoke good discussion. Also people like or dislike something for a different reason so camps are stupid.

Unfortunately this is a nature of online discussion and besides hitting the report button to over the top posts there's not that much that can be done unless you want to change the mentality.
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Old 2012-05-03, 17:38   Link #40
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Honestly, what you're describing has been going on for far longer than you think. Even in 2008, you had stuff like that happening. In fact, I would say that the general mood in the Hyouka thread is a lot more tolerant than the Clannad subforum back in 2008.
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