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Old 2012-05-03, 11:58   Link #28681
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Why do you think a Beatrice disguise was necessary? She may have been in possession of the dress, but she never needs to actually wear it after Kinzo dies.
PieceBattler saw her in Ep 4 so I think she needs a Beato disguise.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, yeah, that's what it means to be an adult - knowing how to act appropriately. And despite that bit of rambling, Eva's relationship with Jessica is still QUITE GOOD when it's not put under the stress of ritualistic murders. I'll admit that Lion is a bit Mary-Sui-ish, but his traits never veer into the unrealistic, and he enjoys a relationship to the relatives pretty much the same as the other kids. I mean, none of the adults even have any real, legitimate, supported-by-text reasons to dislike any of the kids, like they do to sometimes dislike each other (and even THOSE are pretty scant, actually).
*nods* My impression that Lion's 'everyone is cool with me being the head and loves me' was a little biased is due to Ep 7 general tendence to show things a little biased and to the fact that later, when pressed by Bern, Lion wasn't so sure everyone was so cool with it.

It's no proof though, just a feeling.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yes, that's exactly what I think. His sentiment will have changed from "I fell out of THAT uterus." to "Ushiromiya Asumu raised me with love and was a huge part of the person I ended up being, and fulfilled pretty much every role one typically associates with a mother."

Or perhaps, more flippantly, Step-moms are moms, too.
I agree

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I believe it was stated that the only recognizable piece of a person that was found AT ALL was Maria's jawbone. You could theorize, then, that anybody BESIDES Maria was still perhaps alive and well. Or in Maria's case, alive and very jawless.
Hum... I don't remember the exact quote. I seem to remember Maria's jaw came up because with it they proved she was surely dead and therefore couldn't have written the messages post explosion. I'll need to recheck that part to see if they stated her jaw was the only recognizable bit they found.

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I sometimes wonder, when Ange says she'll accept "anyone at all" coming home, if Godha pulled up in a coupe, took off his hater blockers, and was all "Hey girl. You KNOW I meant to call you after that whole, tch, EXPLOSION thing. It was c-razy. How you doin'?"
Well, with anyone I think she means anyone in HER family, meaning no servants, cousins, aunts or uncles are okay. After all Eva returned but she doesn't accept her. I bet if someone else had returned in Eva's place she would have placed the blame on that someone else... unless he/she was her mom, dad or Battler.

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I wouldn't say she feared rejection, more like she feared enslavement. Keep in mind that George never asked her about things, he decided on his own and dictated these things as both of their futures.

I would like to think of Beatrice as bird trying to free herself from her cage. If she were to go with George, she would be able to leave the island at the expense of her fate being decided by some guy she doesn't really like.
Well, the interview pointed out how what scared her was the fact she couldn't fulfil the future George dreamed of, not that she 'disliked' it.
And it's true that George merely states his dream and never asks her if she has her owns because he's a pretty egocentrical guy but well, she always seemed to agree with them, so even if he'd been less egocentrical, there were low chances it would dawn on him she didn't like his plans.

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Remember that Lion's hair is up to the middle of his back. If Yasu had that much hair, she wouldn't be able to hide it in her small wigs.
... Yasu never had to dress up as Lion though...

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
I have no idea to what you are referring here
In the manga you see in Ep 3 & 4 a black human shape who supposedly represent Beato or better Beato's true self. However that human shape has no recognizable traits like clothes or hair. Likely this is to keep up the mystery about who she is (in EP 8 she's given clothes and hair) and not due to Yasu wandeering around naked (or in really tight clothes) and hairless but well, as I said, the idea that Yasu might have few hair gave to this representation of her an entirely new meaning...

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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
Speaking of corpses, I always wondered.

Who do you guys think placed Kinzos corpse in the furnace in the games where it occurred? Shkannon certainly could have done it, but I feel like Krauss/Natsuhi could just have easily have done it themselves/ordered it. It certainly takes the stress off them having to protect the study.

More importantly, where the heck did they keep that thing for 2 years?
I think it can even be a combination of both as in Natsuhi and Krauss' mind Shkannon was an accomplice in guarding the study.

Though there can be reasons to keep around the body I tend to think that in Prime they disposed of the body way earlier and it was kept around only on the gameboards.

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-stuffs
It's really a well constructed plot for a fic and also an interesting theory.
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Old 2012-05-03, 12:05   Link #28682
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You know, that was still a very entertaining read even if the details weren't 100% tight yet. Maybe there exists a space of fan fiction that, instead of writing alternate events of the two days on Rokkenjima, tries to "Later Queen" Umineko. That is stories which tries to alter the original story as much as possible with newly discovered "facts."
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:02   Link #28683
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With respect to Maria, let's just assume she is alive. How do you create the impression that she isn't with a dental record?
  • The whole thing is a lie; no jaw was ever found. Let's assume the endscroll wasn't just nonsense and that somebody did say a jaw was found and identified. The problem here is that the ep1 endscroll is unsourced (it doesn't even have an identifiable narrator), so it's hard to say "that character/narrator is lying" when there's no indication there even is one. Still, lying about the existence of a jawbone would at least allow Maria to keep hers. But it's also inherently falsifiable; just ask around and the police will probably say they never found any such thing.
  • The jawbone is an immensely convincing fake. I question how anyone would have this degree of artifice.
  • The jawbone is filled with Maria's baby teeth which "Beatrice" collected for this purpose. In that case, why Maria specifically? And would anyone actually be fooled by such a construction?
  • The jawbone was real, but wasn't Maria's; it was intentionally or coincidentally misidentified, or someone deliberately falsified the report. In this case, who did it and why, or how - if it was accidental - did they make that mistake?
  • Metal-Jaw Cyborg Maria.
It's not implausible, but still, putting the jawbone in an unsourced endscroll makes it a difficult thing to actually doubt without assuming the author was just making shit up. It's a bit different from the message bottles being a hoax in that the message bottles would be much harder to properly identify and there was some leeway in how those were reported. Even if we assume the jawbone was planted by someone, it still has to fool analysts somehow (who would have to have analyzed it to know it came from Maria).
lol, I'm sorry but It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.

I kid, I kid.

Man, I love you guys, I throw out an idea I have and you guys come up with all these conflicting ideas that I hadn't even dreamed of.

At this rate, I'll never end up bored with Umineko.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:19   Link #28684
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
You know, that was still a very entertaining read even if the details weren't 100% tight yet. Maybe there exists a space of fan fiction that, instead of writing alternate events of the two days on Rokkenjima, tries to "Later Queen" Umineko. That is stories which tries to alter the original story as much as possible with newly discovered "facts."
Great, now I have this idea for a guy who suddenly realizes in the mid-90s that he is Kanon, and is absolutely convinced of this and even thinks he has Kanon's memories, even though by all figurings of the Witch Hunters of the day Kanon didn't even actually exist.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:23   Link #28685
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In order to explain logically and consistently how Maria could be still alive you need to come up with a lot of unmentioned background set ups.

That is however the same that you needed to do to explain the "burned corpse" in Higurashi. Who the hell could have imagined that in the earlier episodes without going onto the field of wild speculations?
Well, I think the difference is that there isn't any foreshadowing that Maria might not be dead. Whereas, in Higurashi, Takano was said to have appeared at the festival after the time that the body that was found should have died.

At least for me, at that point, I was pretty certain that she'd faked her death.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:37   Link #28686
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But as far as I remember that happened in tatarigoroshi, the third arc. I was thinking about the first two. Of course when you consider later arcs the difference becomes apparent, that is precisely why I don't think that the idea of Maria being alive is even remotely probable now, but it could have been a plausible possibilty up to EP4 I think.

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Great, now I have this idea for a guy who suddenly realizes in the mid-90s that he is Kanon, and is absolutely convinced of this and even thinks he has Kanon's memories, even though by all figurings of the Witch Hunters of the day Kanon didn't even actually exist.
Even better: Someone who realized the identity of itoikukuroreigonamu (I hope I got it right) approaches Ikuko with the intention of forcing her to admit that she is the same person who wrote the first two stories. This guy uses all the evidences that were exposed in this thread to prove his reasoning being correct and on top of that he claims that the style of those stories are too similar to be from two different persons, so he claims he has no doubts and keep asking her why she doesn't admit it after all the proof he has found.

Ikuko amusingly listen to the whole story, laughing at the whole idea in her mind and in the end she just unswers evasively: "who knows maybe I truly am Beatrice". She doesn't really mind that at first, but then slowly that idea keeps eating at her thoughts, and she finds herself thinking: "Wait... if Battler one day woke up with a completely different personality, what if..."
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:01   Link #28687
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Well, it was actually the end of Watanagishi-hen. Then again, I may be biased, since I played Umineko first and already figured the girl who looked like Lambda was probably the culprit.
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Old 2012-05-03, 15:51   Link #28688
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You're of the opinion that Shannon doesn't really love George, is just using him as an out? That kinda ... would change some things.
Well, that was the point of the Love Duel. She couldn't love Battler, Jessica, and George at the same time, she had to choose one over the others (along with dealing with the consequences of choosing either one of them).

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, the interview pointed out how what scared her was the fact she couldn't fulfil the future George dreamed of, not that she 'disliked' it.
And it's true that George merely states his dream and never asks her if she has her owns because he's a pretty egocentrical guy but well, she always seemed to agree with them, so even if he'd been less egocentrical, there were low chances it would dawn on him she didn't like his plans.
I wouldn't say she "disliked" it since she would probably have enjoyed having children, but she couldn't have fulfilled it because it wouldn't be right. She doesn't love George, she loves Battler, and there's nothing worse in a relationship than having children with a person you don't really like.
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Old 2012-05-04, 12:04   Link #28689
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Well, there have been several statements by Ryukishi that Shanon definitely loves George and from the quotes I provided in Umineko Comprehensive(in my signature, I updated it), it's clear she was planning in a future with him at first. Before he stated going on about having children, she was hoping that she would be "discovered" on the night of the Okinawan trip. As per the interview. Ah, maybe we should just dig out the link if you haven't read it. Where was it...

She had by that time already abandoned her hopes on Battler.

She still wanted to have the perfect "love" with George despite all this, although she knew it could only go as far as the night of the Rokkenjima incident.
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Old 2012-05-04, 12:21   Link #28690
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My main problem with this claim is that the Love Duel never read to me like that at all. It really does seem like Battler was always the choice and George is just a consolation prize, and that she can never really get over her hangup regardless of what she says about George.
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Old 2012-05-04, 14:09   Link #28691
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Also Jessica just gets lead-on no matter what happens. Yasu's an asshole.
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Old 2012-05-04, 14:55   Link #28692
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
She still wanted to have the perfect "love" with George despite all this, although she knew it could only go as far as the night of the Rokkenjima incident.
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
My main problem with this claim is that the Love Duel never read to me like that at all. It really does seem like Battler was always the choice and George is just a consolation prize, and that she can never really get over her hangup regardless of what she says about George.
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Also Jessica just gets lead-on no matter what happens. Yasu's an asshole.
Yeah, I'm with Renall and Aura on this one. It just seems odd that if she loved George, and had moved on from Battler, that Battler would still be a factor in all of this. By that regard, Battler shouldn't be a motivation for her part in the Rokkenjima Incident. Rather, she wouldn't have placed so much weight on his presence there.

Plus, EP6, EP7, and EP8 seem to suggest that she truly loved Battler and only had regarded George as a replacement. It seems that her "love" was generated from the fact that she wanted out of the island, and since George loved her so much it shouldn't be a problem to tell him the truth.

Otherwise, if this be not the case, then what's up with Battler? EP7 suggests that she had always harbored feelings for him and that the only part of her that "moved on" was Shannon. The Love Duel suggested that she only had one option between the three of them because she can't be with them all at the same time. So she really had to choose which one of her personas was she going to live the rest of her life as.

So, yeah, please bring up those qoutes.
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Old 2012-05-04, 15:29   Link #28693
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I wouldn't say she "disliked" it since she would probably have enjoyed having children, but she couldn't have fulfilled it because it wouldn't be right. She doesn't love George, she loves Battler, and there's nothing worse in a relationship than having children with a person you don't really like.
I think she loved George, thought not as much as she loved/believed to love Battler.
An interesting point in EP 7 is that it shows a Yasu seems to desperately need some kindness.

Quote:
"Ah, where is this place?! And who am I?!
"Then let me ask! Where do you want it to be? Who do you want to be?!"
"Any place, so long as it will wrap itself around me gently! Anyone, so long as I am treated kindly!"
"Yes, for us...!"
"For us...!"
""Where and who we are hardly matters!!""
George was kind with her, filling a need Yasu had and winning, if not her total and unconditional love, a god deal of her affection. Probably, if Battler hadn't been back, she would have never questioned her love for George.
And Ryukishi07 himself implied she had feelings for him.

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My main problem with this claim is that the Love Duel never read to me like that at all. It really does seem like Battler was always the choice and George is just a consolation prize, and that she can never really get over her hangup regardless of what she says about George.
My main problem is that Lion doesn't seem to be crushing over Battler or George (though Lion sayshe/she has a good relation with Battler). So, unless Lion is hiding his/her feeling, the fact that Battler is the best choice for Yasu is just due to the setting Yasu is in.

Though in regards to George/Battler, I think the problem was that for George she felt strong affection, not love, and that she had spent 6 years idealizing her love for Battler. Out of sheer luck (or due to serious misfortune) when Battler comes back after 6 years, he still fits her ideal.
However in those 6 years Battler might have changed so much she couldn't have been capable to stand the sign of him.
So maybe Yasu is right and fate REALLY hates her.
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Old 2012-05-04, 15:58   Link #28694
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Shannon loved George, Kanon loved Jessica, but neither of them was a person, they were just... masks, furnitures, fake personalites... whatever you want to call them.

Yasu herself didn't really love them, and she didn't even think that maybe it wasn't right to involve them in her crazy plan for something that was between her and Battler and that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

The strife for Kanon and Shannon to become "human" symbolizes Yasu's attempt to actually become either of them making their feelings true in her heart (it's hard to believe that could work, and in fact it didn't). As far as we know the only feelings of love that Yasu made her own (albeit they started with Shannon) were those for Battler. And that happened about the time Kanon was created.
Despite the fact that Episode 6 shows Shannon as the victor I think the two servants already lost by the time Yasu went crazy when she learned that Battler was coming back.
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Old 2012-05-04, 20:38   Link #28695
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My main problem is that Lion doesn't seem to be crushing over Battler or George (though Lion sayshe/she has a good relation with Battler). So, unless Lion is hiding his/her feeling, the fact that Battler is the best choice for Yasu is just due to the setting Yasu is in.
This doesn't affect what Renall said at all. Lion is Lion and Yasu is Yasu. Lion had his/her parents and even Kinzo as guides, and grew up to learn and appreciate different things that Yasu growing up as a Fukuin child did. The things Yasu became interested in, like reading murder mysteries were a result from relying on Kumasawa as a guide. Lion may not even see Battler as a romantic interest at all.
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Old 2012-05-05, 05:37   Link #28696
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However in those 6 years Battler might have changed so much she couldn't have been capable to stand the sign of him.
So maybe Yasu is right and fate REALLY hates her.
This is a point that was indeed implied, when you compare EP1-4 Battler to EP5-6 Battler.

Both Battler himself and Erika noted, that Battler seems smarter than "he should be" in EP5-6. But if we go with EP6 genius Battler, it is more probable that EP1-4 Battler was out of character instead (imagining a 12 year old Battler in the body of a 18 year old Battler), and EP5-6 Battler was closer to Prime-reality.

So the message bottles try to hide the changes that may have happened, or maybe she just didn't change the character in her mind, because she "didn't know" how he really is now.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-05-05 at 05:55.
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Old 2012-05-05, 10:57   Link #28697
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Also Jessica just gets lead-on no matter what happens. Yasu's an asshole.
Amusingly enough I thought it was the reverse. Jessica's feelings for Kanon do seem more superficial like what Battler/Shannon had, if anything the narration implied as much IIRC. In fact that when Kanon asked her she likes him that she had no real answer.

Also given that Kanon lost the love duel implies anyway that love was not that strong.

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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Yeah, I'm with Renall and Aura on this one. It just seems odd that if she loved George, and had moved on from Battler, that Battler would still be a factor in all of this. By that regard, Battler shouldn't be a motivation for her part in the Rokkenjima Incident. Rather, she wouldn't have placed so much weight on his presence there.

Plus, EP6, EP7, and EP8 seem to suggest that she truly loved Battler and only had regarded George as a replacement. It seems that her "love" was generated from the fact that she wanted out of the island, and since George loved her so much it shouldn't be a problem to tell him the truth.

Otherwise, if this be not the case, then what's up with Battler? EP7 suggests that she had always harbored feelings for him and that the only part of her that "moved on" was Shannon. The Love Duel suggested that she only had one option between the three of them because she can't be with them all at the same time. So she really had to choose which one of her personas was she going to live the rest of her life as.
Just wondering, why does it have to be one or the other? My impression is that Shannon/Beatrice both loved George and Battler as I do consider that Kannon/Shannon/Beatrice is basically one person like Claire/Yasuda. It is very possible that you can have feelings for two people. If anything that is what I gathered from the whole situation is that Yasuda was in love with three people but was unsure what future/relationship to pursuit since objectively looking that they are not that great.

George: she is unable to provide the future that he wants
Jessica: the relationship does not seem like something that will be that long
lasting(seems more like one of those high-school relationships)
Battler: seems to not care what ever became of Shannon

I do think that the

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Shannon loved George, Kanon loved Jessica, but neither of them was a person, they were just... masks, furnitures, fake personalites... whatever you want to call them.

Yasu herself didn't really love them, and she didn't even think that maybe it wasn't right to involve them in her crazy plan for something that was between her and Battler and that had absolutely nothing to do with them.

The strife for Kanon and Shannon to become "human" symbolizes Yasu's attempt to actually become either of them making their feelings true in her heart (it's hard to believe that could work, and in fact it didn't). As far as we know the only feelings of love that Yasu made her own (albeit they started with Shannon) were those for Battler. And that happened about the time Kanon was created.
Despite the fact that Episode 6 shows Shannon as the victor I think the two servants already lost by the time Yasu went crazy when she learned that Battler was coming back.
Like I said that instead of being masks, furnitures, fake personalties etc that Kanon/Shannon/Beatrice are portions of Yasuda's heart as they have been described as being incomplete souls.

If the murder game was described as a roulette that the game, in fact Kanon was described as the 0 in the game. I do think that implies that Kanon can win the game as well despite the low odds. In fact in game 3 that Kanon gets another chance but loses despite the heavy odds.

Claire did say that she would have still struggled with the love duel and an incident would have happened only that wouldn't have magnified to the extent like it did when Battler came back. That does not imply to me that the servants already lost by the time Yasu went crazy when s/he learned that Battler was coming back.


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My main problem is that Lion doesn't seem to be crushing over Battler or George (though Lion sayshe/she has a good relation with Battler). So, unless Lion is hiding his/her feeling, the fact that Battler is the best choice for Yasu is just due to the setting Yasu is in.
Lion and Yasu are two different people. Also believe it or not that relationships develop via many different circumstances.
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Old 2012-05-05, 11:15   Link #28698
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That does not imply to me that the servants already lost by the time Yasu went crazy when s/he learned that Battler was coming back.
You think Yasu would have gone crazy for George or Jessica? I do not.
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Old 2012-05-05, 11:48   Link #28699
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No Yasuda would have gone crazy for all three of them though. Battler's return made a bad situation worse.
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Old 2012-05-05, 12:13   Link #28700
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Without Battler, Yasu just has to choose between Kanon with Jessica or Shannon and George, but now that Battler came back, the emotions Yasu gave Beatrice came rushing back into em. With the addition of Beatrice's emotions, Yasu may as well be have been pulled apart by three different people.
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