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Randrak42 · 2012-05-03, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

Nah it's alright.
It's just that with a manga like Medaka Box, restricting it to just a popularity poll for Zenkichi and Kumagawa is kinda limiting, that's all.
You're not going to change your opinion and Randrak isn't going to change his, so why not discuss the other multitude of themes and events that have happened or will happen in the manga?

Exactly, if one isn't into an ongoing discussion, I see no reason why another can't start and run simultaneously.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:12

Ok, fine... I'm curious, does Kumagawa still have "Book Maker" after he regain "All Fiction"? Because, as I recall, "All Ficiton" is just the left over's from "Hundred Gauntlets", so does that mean Kumagawa now has bot of his Minus, or did he permanently sacrifice "Book Maker" to get it back this time?

Also, Munakata's urge to kill was lost because he killed for the first time right? Or, did Kumagawa use "All Fiction" to make it nothing when he was killed?

Darth SpiderDen · 2012-05-03, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

Ok, fine... I'm curious, does Kumagawa still have "Book Maker" after he regain "All Fiction"? Because, as I recall, "All Ficiton" is just the left over's from "Hundred Gauntlets", so does that mean Kumagawa now has bot of his Minus, or did he permanently sacrifice "Book Maker" to get it back this time?

Also, Munakata's urge to kill was lost because he killed for the first time right? Or, did Kumagawa use "All Fiction" to make it nothing when he was killed?

About Kumagawa's Minus: not sure if he has both of them but I think that he traded Book Maker for All Fiction.
And about Munakata's loss of the urge to kill is also affirmative. Even tough Kumagawa used All Fiction to make it nothing, the experience of killing still stayed with Munakata.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

About Kumagawa's Minus: not sure if he has both of them but I think that he traded Book Maker for All Fiction.

We know it's possible for people to have multiple skill's though, and that "All Fiction" was regained by throwing together the bit's left over from "Hundred Gauntlets".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

And about Munakata's loss of the urge to kill is also affirmative. Even tough Kumagawa used All Fiction to make it nothing, the experience of killing still stayed with Munakata.

Yeah, but was it "All Fiction" that made it nothing, or, was it like he believed, and that the experience of killing, finally quenched his desire to kill? Did Kumagawa have "All Fiction" when he was killed, or did he only regain it after he died.

Darth SpiderDen · 2012-05-03, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

We know it's possible for people to have multiple skill's though, and that "All Fiction" was regained by throwing together the bit's left over from "Hundred Gauntlets".

Yeah, but was it "All Fiction" that made it nothing, or, was it like he believed, and that the experience of killing, finally quenched his desire to kill? Did Kumagawa have "All Fiction" when he was killed, or did he only regain it after he died.

I've re-read the chapter of the killing.
Kumagawa unlocked All Fiction after dying, while still maintaining Book Maker.
And he used it to make his death nothing.
But it seems the experience and knowledge stayed with Munakata.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

I've re-read the chapter of the killing.
Kumagawa unlocked All Fiction after dying, while still maintaining Book Maker.
And he used it to make his death nothing.
But it seems the experience and knowledge stayed with Munakata.

Hasn't it always been like that though? "All Fiction" makes something into nothing, but he didn't make "The Action of killing me" nothing, he made "My Death" and "My Injuries" nothing.

Darth SpiderDen · 2012-05-03, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

Hasn't it always been like that though? "All Fiction" makes something into nothing, but he didn't make "The Action of killing me" nothing, he made "My Death" and "My Injuries" nothing.

Yeah, come to think of it, that's the only use Kumagawa's as ever given All Fiction.
Except when he made Zenkichi blind.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

Yeah, come to think of it, that's the only use Kumagawa's as ever given All Fiction.
Except when he made Zenkichi blind.

That's the only need he's ever had for it though, since after he joined the Council he didn't have it anymore.

Darth SpiderDen · 2012-05-03, 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

That's the only need he's ever had for it though, since after he joined the Council he didn't have it anymore.

But it's kind of a downer.
All the possibilities that skill can give you and he basically uses it just to negate damage to him.
It's still pretty awesome just as that, since it makes him basically indestructible, but still....

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

But it's kind of a downer.
All the possibilities that skill can give you and he basically uses it just to negate damage to him.
It's still pretty awesome just as that, since it makes him basically indestructible, but still....

Well, it's limited in that he still needs to be able to touch whatever he's negating, but, what else could he use it for? It sounds like an awesome ability, but making something into nothing means you can't get it back. After all, it's not like he can make the action of using "All Fiction" into nothing.

That said, what would you use it for?

Sol Falling · 2012-05-03, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

Yeah, come to think of it, that's the only use Kumagawa's as ever given All Fiction.
Except when he made Zenkichi blind.

Kumagawa also used All Fiction to do things like removing the locks on the bomb bracelets in the Secretary battle, in order to cause a tie.

edit: I see you guys are not even including the times Kumagawa used All Fiction to heal other people. If you guys didn't realize, that goes for every time he stabbed someone with one of his screws (remember how people commented on how mysteriously, they weren't actually hurt) as well.

double edit: Also, Kumagawa used All Fiction several times to restore/repair clothes.

Regarding Bookmaker. I'm of the opinion that Kumagawa still has it. The thing is though, that now that Kumagawa is trying to win and has become happy, he pretty much has zero reason to make use of it. In the first place: Bookmaker drags an opponent down to Kumagawa's level, so rather than winning--fundamentally the best Bookmaker can give him is a tie. Second: as has been said numerous times about his character, Kumagawa is in fact already incredibly strong. Rather than reducing his opponents' abilities, it is perfectly conceivable for Kumagawa to compete on the basis of his own.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Kumagawa also used All Fiction to do things like removing the locks on the bomb bracelets in the Secretary battle, in order to cause a tie.

Ah, that's right isn't it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Regarding Bookmaker. I'm of the opinion that Kumagawa still has it. The thing is though, that now that Kumagawa is trying to win and has become happy, he pretty much has zero reason to make use of it. In the first place: Bookmaker drags an opponent down to Kumagawa's level, so rather than winning--fundamentally the best Bookmaker can give him is a tie. Second: as has been said numerous times about his character, Kumagawa is in fact already incredibly strong. Rather than reducing his opponents' abilities, it is perfectly conceivable for Kumagawa to compete on the basis of his own.

In other words, "Book Maker" is a pretty useless skill, unless he wants somebody to better understand him.

By the way, was it ever stated that Medaka could recall Kumagawa's feelings, from when she was effected by "Book Maker"? Does she still remember his motivations at the time, and all the little things?

Log · 2012-05-03, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

Ah, that's right isn't it...

In other words, "Book Maker" is a pretty useless skill, unless he wants somebody to better understand him.

By the way, was it ever stated that Medaka could recall Kumagawa's feelings, from when she was effected by "Book Maker"? Does she still remember his motivations at the time, and all the little things?

I wouldn't call Book Maker useless. Book Maker is actually potentially one of the strongest skills because it brings down the opponenet to his level no matter how strong the opponent is. It managed to seal Ajimu (although she likely let him), and would've tied with Medaka had she not have plot armor.

Wolfenstein · 2012-05-03, 20:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth SpiderDen

This isn't Medaka Box anymore.
It's now "Zenkichi vs Kumagawa: who do you prefer?" thread.

Pfft. That's like asking me to choose between my own children.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Log

I wouldn't call Book Maker useless. Book Maker is actually potentially one of the strongest skills because it brings down the opponenet to his level no matter how strong the opponent is. It managed to seal Ajimu (although she likely let him), and would've tied with Medaka had she not have plot armor.

That would make it useful in a Team Match, but, all it would do in a One-On-One fight is cause a tie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfenstein

Pfft. That's like asking me to choose between my own children.

Obviously when picking between your kids, you pick the one who causes less headaches, and actually cleans up after themselves.

Log · 2012-05-03, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFXFan13

That would make it useful in a Team Match, but, all it would do in a One-On-One fight is cause a tie.

Ties are good in a fight with a superior opponent.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 20:29

True, especially since "Book Maker" would also give his opponent the inability to win, unless they were someone like Medaka.

Wolfenstein · 2012-05-03, 20:37

Book Maker's real weakness isn't it's effect, it's that Kumagawa needs a relatively large opening to use It since he has to fully pierce the opponent with the sword-like screw.

FFXFan13 · 2012-05-03, 20:42

Considering what he did to the Student Council Candidates as "punishment" it shouldn't be that difficult for him to do it. Medaka was an exception, because she was leagues above him in terms of speed and strength.

Wolfenstein · 2012-05-03, 20:48

He didn't use Bookmaker on them, though it's fair to assume he could've.

But the only reason he'd use it in the first place is if he was using it against an opponent who he could not beat or could beat him, so yea, it's a weakness given that he has to fully pierce the enemy with it.

2012-05-03, 19:12	Link #8742
FFXFan13 Swag Level: Glasses Join Date: May 2009 Location: Scotland, UK Age: 20	Ok, fine... I'm curious, does Kumagawa still have "Book Maker" after he regain "All Fiction"? Because, as I recall, "All Ficiton" is just the left over's from "Hundred Gauntlets", so does that mean Kumagawa now has bot of his Minus, or did he permanently sacrifice "Book Maker" to get it back this time? Also, Munakata's urge to kill was lost because he killed for the first time right? Or, did Kumagawa use "All Fiction" to make it nothing when he was killed?

2012-05-03, 20:29	Link #8757
FFXFan13 Swag Level: Glasses Join Date: May 2009 Location: Scotland, UK Age: 20	True, especially since "Book Maker" would also give his opponent the inability to win, unless they were someone like Medaka.

2012-05-03, 20:37	Link #8758
Wolfenstein Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	Book Maker's real weakness isn't it's effect, it's that Kumagawa needs a relatively large opening to use It since he has to fully pierce the opponent with the sword-like screw.

2012-05-03, 20:42	Link #8759
FFXFan13 Swag Level: Glasses Join Date: May 2009 Location: Scotland, UK Age: 20	Considering what he did to the Student Council Candidates as "punishment" it shouldn't be that difficult for him to do it. Medaka was an exception, because she was leagues above him in terms of speed and strength.

2012-05-03, 20:48	Link #8760
Wolfenstein Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	He didn't use Bookmaker on them, though it's fair to assume he could've. But the only reason he'd use it in the first place is if he was using it against an opponent who he could not beat or could beat him, so yea, it's a weakness given that he has to fully pierce the enemy with it.