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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 18 Rating
Perfect 10 47 38.84%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 38 31.40%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 15.70%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 7.44%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.65%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.83%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.65%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.83%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.65%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-06, 12:42   Link #101
Craxuan
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Explaining a bit more on Kiritsugu's personality.

Kiritsugu blamed himself for not killing Shirley that day, because if he had done so his village wouldn't have been destroyed. That all the villagers were slaughtered (For those who didn't understand how the Church works, please refer to the Visual Novel Tsukihime. Basically, they're like an army of Kiritsugus, and even more ruthless that they will eliminate everything that they deem as heretics - if you're found a vampire you are so dead - without mercy, and these people are called Executors) because of that one person he could not kill, because he was too scared to even think about the possibility.

What he did not think was that even if he had killed Shirley, his father would've continued the research with more guinea pigs, and the village was doomed to die anyway. What's worse would be that he as the son of a Dead Apostle would one day inherit all that knowledge, and at that point he wouldn't even have an alternative. He, as someone who has lost everything and even murdered his most beloved girl, would have given in and continued his father's research - subjecting himself to sin as a way of atonement, or going completely mad. That day, even though him didn't kill Shirley resulted in the destruction of his home, it was probably a blessing in disguise and the best realistic end one could hope for.

But Kiritsugu has an abnormal obsession to responsibility. You might notice that almost all heroes or anti-heroes have that kind of attribute; those who have played Nitroplus' Visual Novel Muramasa would even think that Kiritsugu is absolutely normal. He could not forgive himself for allowing Shirley to destroy her own home because of his fear and weakness to the sin of murder, nor could he ever forget everything that has happened and try to live a new, normal life.

I suppose you can say that Kiritsugu was born peculiar. There were people who were known as natural born soldiers, because they can execute orders and objectives regardless of their sentiments and emotions behind it. He was one such natural - perhaps not by coincidence, considering that he is a son of a Dead Apostle - and even though he felt every bit of pain and sadness (in the form of absolute emptiness; the LN described that he felt as if his soul were being sucked out), his body had reacted to what's 'the right thing to do'. He killed his own father. He had asked clearly whether his father was going to continue the research, and he said yes. His father had shown absolutely no remorse but only anger and sadness that for his failure, and obviously intent to continue it. And yes, his father loved him dearly, and him vice versa.

The right course of action was to kill him, and Kiritsugu did it.

Now no one else would die at his father's hands anymore. His village was the final sacrifice. It could've been just his beloved girlfriend, and no one else (Obviously untrue, but I'm assuming that's what going through his mind; you can hardly blame the boy for thinking irrationally).

If you wonder why he chose the bloodiest method to save people - to go for those impossible situation where murder is the only solution - it was because once upon a time, his fear to kill one person had resulted in the death of his entire home. He probably resolved never to surrender to such a fear again, and if possible, save some other poor kid from having to make the decision between killing his dearest beloved, or lose everything.
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Old 2012-05-06, 12:52   Link #102
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You make a good point about it being natural for Kiritsugu. Kiritsugu has two Origins, one of which is "Severing". That would have likely been a factor in his decision to kill his father also.
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:10   Link #103
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His Origin wasn't awakened or anything. Saying it was because of his Origin is a bit of a stretch. I think they illustrated in the episode why he did it quite well.
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:25   Link #104
germanturkey
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so, for a moment, i had to double check to see if i was watching the right show.... but this was an amazing episode. gave a lot of insight as to why he turned out like he did. this ep makes me want a real zombie anime again.
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:38   Link #105
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
His Origin wasn't awakened or anything. Saying it was because of his Origin is a bit of a stretch. I think they illustrated in the episode why he did it quite well.
I don't think his Origin has to be awakened for him to subconciously follow it. Awakening your Origin simply means to follow it to absurd level.
Spoiler for Kara no Kyoukai:
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:44   Link #106
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't think his Origin has to be awakened for him to subconciously follow it. Awakening your Origin simply means to follow it to absurd level.
Spoiler for Kara no Kyoukai:
Ah... Azaka. How could I forget about her? I have shamed myself.

Never mind then. But, at most I think his Origin made it easier for him to cope with what happens. I don't think it influenced or directed. Saying it was because of his Origin puts less value on what happened to cute Shirley, the villagers, stacked Shirley, his father and hawt Shirley.

Last edited by DragoZERO; 2012-05-06 at 14:20. Reason: Added spoiler tags. Shame on anyone who still hasn't watched KnK though.
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:53   Link #107
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Ah... Azaka. How could I forget about her? I have shamed myself.

Never mind then. But, at most I think his Origin made it easier for him to cope with what happens. I don't think it influenced or directed. Saying it was because of his Origin puts less value on what happened to cute Shirley, the villagers, stacked Shirley, his father and hawt Shirley.
You should probably but spoiler tags in your quote, to prevent spoiling Kara no Kyoukai.
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Old 2012-05-06, 13:54   Link #108
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Really torn on this episode, especially since I've been so positive on F/Z since episode 16. On one hand, it had some of the most profoundly silly stuff I've seen in a while, but on the other, I feel like I finally have long overdue grasp on who Kiritsugu is. Moreover, I actually like him. I have high hopes for how they'll portray him in the remainder of the war, but every now and again Fate/Zero teeters on the tightrope between tragedy and unintentionally farce.

More importantly, they sure do make pretty fire in this show!

Last edited by ThereminVox; 2012-05-06 at 14:06.
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Old 2012-05-06, 14:06   Link #109
Haak
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Ah... Azaka. How could I forget about her? I have shamed myself.

Never mind then. But, at most I think his Origin made it easier for him to cope with what happens. I don't think it influenced or directed. Saying it was because of his Origin puts less value on what happened to cute Shirley, the villagers, stacked Shirley, his father and hawt Shirley.
Well I can't argue with that. Anyway I've thought of a new catchphrase:
Spoiler for Lol:
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Old 2012-05-06, 15:25   Link #110
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Well I can't argue with that. Anyway I've thought of a new catchphrase:
Spoiler for Lol:
isn't it sad, sachan, you even lost your catch phrase
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Old 2012-05-06, 15:42   Link #111
bahamut zero
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I thought they would cover both Kiritsugu's childhood days and Heart of Freaks in this episode, but they decided to grant a full episode to Kiritsugu's backstory.
Heart of freaks wasn't really canon, so I doubt they will animate it.
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Old 2012-05-06, 18:58   Link #112
Silvance
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I know that it wouldn't end well, but that even more bitter than I expected. Good episode overall. Not only it provided background story for Kiritsugu, we even got to see that blonde guy from KnK as a bonus.
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:24   Link #113
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Was gonna 9/10 for the usual 'brilliant', but cameo by Cornelius made me wanna give this 10/10.

Dead Apostles? EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Man this episode is so much randomness but epicness. Shirley personality reminds me of my older cousin who passed away ;__;.

And creepy gender ambiguous man with boobs , kind of wished it was Riesbyfe, but that probably wouldn't make any sense xD
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Old 2012-05-06, 20:29   Link #114
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Fantastic episode, really gives Kiritsugu that badly needed character development he lost since his character's narration from the novels didn't carry over. Whoever made the David Lynch's version of Dune as a reference was right.

Is anyone here a Blade Runner fan? Did you know the original, theatrical version of that had Harrison Ford bluntly narrating the whole way through in disinterested monotone? The reason you may not have is because Ridley Scott has all but declared that version non-canon and has made sure the far-superior Director's Cut is what has been on store shelves for the past 30 years. If you ever watch the original version along with what he intended, the difference is staggering. So I agree with what the show's producers did here in giving Kiritsugu an alternate form of character development.

Plus Tsukhime and KnK crossovers are never a bad thing
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Old 2012-05-06, 20:54   Link #115
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Fantastic episode, really gives Kiritsugu that badly needed character development he lost since his character's narration from the novels didn't carry over. Whoever made the David Lynch's version of Dune as a reference was right.
Even if the character's narration didn't carry over, ufotable have done what they can with the medium and have often managed to convey the character's internal strife and development through clever and effective visual keys. Which, granted, may have been overlooked by some, as well as forgotten by others as a result of the seasonal break between the two halves of the series, but the development is still there. Subtle character development is a fine art, as well as one not often seen in anime, and I would say Kiritsugu has been a very good example of it. Now, that's not to say this episode didn't help deepen his character, but it certainly wasn't necessary to "make" him.
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Old 2012-05-06, 21:02   Link #116
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I thought Dead Apostles are the final stage of a human transformation to vampires? Aren't the lowly mindless vampires called "the Dead"?

So I'm curious whether Shirley will lose her sanity over time. If she does, then that last moment with Kiritsugu was the last sliver of sanity she had and she's just the Dead. If she actually maintained her sanity overtime, there's a possibility she's actually the rare case of vampires with high magic potential like Satsuki, and is a real Dead Apostle.

Now if Shirley somehow survived and found her way to the back-alley-alliance gang, things will get interesting...
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Old 2012-05-06, 21:04   Link #117
DragoZERO
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I thought Dead Apostles are the final stage of a human transformation to vampires? Aren't the lowly mindless vampires called "the Dead"?
You are correct but they fall under the Dead Apostle category, so yeah. What Emiya was trying to accomplish was go from Dead to Ghoul to Apostle quickly and painlessly... it didn't work. And I had pause when they were called Dead Apostles too.
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Old 2012-05-06, 21:29   Link #118
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Shirley's survival is absolutely impossible; the Executors doesn't overlook anyone. If they had the 'time' they would check if the villagers are infected or not, but when they don't the whole town goes to hell. So it went.

Even the strongest among Dead Apostles have problems dealing with just one powerful Executor, and you must remember that Executors are ultimately just human, which makes them ridiculously strong. Shirley don't stand a fly's chance at all. Someone like Kirei would've wiped out the entire island by himself (Though some might escape, so they sent more to make sure NO ONE escapes).
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Old 2012-05-06, 22:06   Link #119
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I don't get how ultimately being just human makes you ridiculously strong in Nasuverse.Edit: oh, I get what you meant. I phrased the sentence wrong.

But yeah, Shirley's chance of survival is slim. Unless maybe if someone like Zelretch while in one of his bizarre moods slipped her out of there. Or if she somehow developed some Marble Phantasm of her own like Sacchin did and that allowed her to escape. Yep, absolutely impossible though.

Though, Emiya did say "it's a failure", so there's a high chance Shirley didn't make it to be a real Dead Apostle and was merely the Dead after all.
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Old 2012-05-07, 00:25   Link #120
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Been a lurker here for a while now....anyway

Great ep although I realized something completely unrelated to kiritsugu, I've never played the F/SN VN or read the F/Z novels but are most mages just as obssessed about reaching the Root as tokiomi and kiritsugu's father that they would do morally questionable things to get there?


The decision to turn your back on becoming a mage like what Kariya did becomes more appealing the more I watch F/Z.


On a completely unrelated note was the country that island was in ever mentioned in the LN? The word "alimango" happens to be a word for crab in my country (I live in the Philippines)
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