AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-05, 12:36   Link #28701
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post
No Yasuda would have gone crazy for all three of them though. Battler's return made a bad situation worse.
If Battler didn't return none of that would have happened. The love duel would have settled without much problem, that was made clear enough.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-05, 19:46   Link #28702
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Great, now I have this idea for a guy who suddenly realizes in the mid-90s that he is Kanon, and is absolutely convinced of this and even thinks he has Kanon's memories, even though by all figurings of the Witch Hunters of the day Kanon didn't even actually exist.
For some reason, I really want to see a Umineko Hard Boiled story, with Kanon as the world weary gumshoe now. 8) Both Rosa and Eva cry out as perfect femme fatales in that kind of a setting too, I'd say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
My main problem with this claim is that the Love Duel never read to me like that at all. It really does seem like Battler was always the choice and George is just a consolation prize, and that she can never really get over her hangup regardless of what she says about George.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Yeah, I'm with Renall and Aura on this one. It just seems odd that if she loved George, and had moved on from Battler, that Battler would still be a factor in all of this. By that regard, Battler shouldn't be a motivation for her part in the Rokkenjima Incident. Rather, she wouldn't have placed so much weight on his presence there.
I think we're on the same page here though. It's a matter of when things happen. By the time Beatrice finds out Battler will be returning to the island, then yes, she realized she hadn't lost all her feelings for him. (Although for Beatrice it turned out a lot more to be resentment that Battler had forgotten his promise. But she wouldn't have cared if she really did give up on him.)

What I meant is during the quotes in EP2, which were flashbacks to Shannon and George's growing relationship, that then, Beatrice and Shannon had given up on Battler and it was an honest relationship that they were trying to grow. Until Shannon finds out George wants tons of kids. Then even though she still loves George, she knows there's no future with him. (Honestly, she didn't really need to be so fatalistic, although I can understand she had no confidence in herself... heh)


I'll dig for the interviews in a bit. It's a much earlier one, I think, where he talked about their relationship.
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-05, 21:32   Link #28703
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I think the true concept behind Yasu's so called "loved" is teenager affection and idealization.. It's not true love no mater what she claimed. The idealization aspect is very strong in all three relationship. Both Kanon and Shanon talked about their love interest in the way that "they bright up our lives". They idealized Gẻogre and Jessica, to compensate for what Yasu could not have in her life.

But Geogre and Jessica are still "around" in Rockenjima. It's easier to fantasize and idealize a person far away. In her mind, Yasu fantasize and idealize Battler as her idealistic love, without making any attempt to understand Battler's real personality, real problems, or what he has been going through at that moment.

The Love Duel is a reflection of the inner working of that romantic, fantasy-driven poor girl/or boy. She must be a tragic heroine. The true love that has been nurtured for 6 years, seperated due to circumstances, it must win. It is like a play, a theatrical romance. It fits with the theatrical theme of ep 7 and of the pair Zepar, Fufur. That dramatical sense is a sign of her immature, her inability to grow out of her comfort cocoon of fantasy and idealistic love to face with real world.

Or maybe all was because I was suddenly reminded of Madame Bolvary. I'm sorry for making Yasu too much of a drama queen here. But she certainly calls for it, with all of her delusion.



On the other hand, I feel it strange that so many people was still around discussing. The guy is really suscessful in keeping people talk about his work. At least for some months after the final episodes is released.
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-05, 23:01   Link #28704
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
I think the true concept behind Yasu's so called "loved" is teenager affection and idealization.. It's not true love no mater what she claimed. The idealization aspect is very strong in all three relationship. Both Kanon and Shanon talked about their love interest in the way that "they bright up our lives". They idealized Gẻogre and Jessica, to compensate for what Yasu could not have in her life.
I definitely think this idea is valid within the story. It's clear that Yasu (especially in EP1) talked a lot about what makes someone an adult vs. what they were like as children. There were some major discussions about that from various characters in EP1, and one quotes in EP2.

From what happened in EP7, it seemed like she was forced to 'grow up' very recently when she inherited the headship, was told of her physical (and probably cognitive) problems and then realized how naive her life really was.

So, her love for these people developed from before she changed like this, so I think it's plausible to say this was another aspect of hers she needed to deal with... or 'grow up.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
On the other hand, I feel it strange that so many people was still around discussing. The guy is really suscessful in keeping people talk about his work. At least for some months after the final episodes is released.
I think it's a matter of not giving us the final answer. 8) It's very clear he never discussed *exactly* what was wrong with Yasu and wanted us to discover that for ourselves. I think it alienated a lot of people (maybe rightly so) but for those left around, there's still a lot to think about. Until you get that answer... 8)

For me, I don't tend to agree that remaining answers should remain hidden. I remember there was a study recently that said that even if people get spoiled on a story, they are still capable of enjoying it. They even found that the ones who were spoiled could understand the story more thoroughly and that was perhaps why they enjoyed it.

I think Ryukishi could have explained Yasu a bit more and thus people would understand the *whole* Umineko much more. Instead, I think he behaved as if Yasu was a real person. If Yasu was a real person and a friend (and Ryukishi would've gotten close to his/her mindset after writing so much) you really wouldn't go around telling the world their embarrassing secrets. Especially any medical secrets. But Yasu is technically a character in a story, and perhaps serving the story is more important than the character.


I think we're better off now though, than a year ago, right? Is there anything major left to discuss?
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 00:15   Link #28705
Kylon99
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
Ok, I just went through some really, really old material. Do you guys realize we were talking about EP5 and 6 around page 127? We're on page 1436 now.. each episode ended up causing an exponential amount of posts it seems... 8)


Anyways, regarding George and Shannon's love... I couldn't find the super old EP2 interviews, but it looks like he goes over some of that while talking about why Shannon felt trapped:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi interview with KEIYA after EP8.
And if you turn this around, it means that George really wasn’t just a replacement for Battler. Maybe he was a replacement at the beginning, but at some point she began completely seeing George for the man he was. If you think about that, his comment about children, must have kept haunting her in silence.
http://seizonsha.wordpress.com/2011/...al-discussion/
I think a lot of you have seen this interview before though.


By the way, I dug up some just-before-EP5 interviews! What a blast from the past... and I'd say we understand almost all of those things he was trying to hint at here:

http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/6828.html Ryukishi interview #1
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7134.html Ryukishi interview #2

http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7366.html Ryukishi interview #3 (part 1)
http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/7562.html Ryukishi interview #3 (part 2)

EDIT: Two more I found. It's old stuff we've read before though.
http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/0...i07-interview/
http://darenome.wordpress.com/2009/1...7-interview-2/
Kylon99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 02:56   Link #28706
ndqanh_vn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post

I think we're better off now though, than a year ago, right? Is there anything major left to discuss?
That sums up my feeling pretty well. I have the feeling we just returns to same old matter again and again. What he did not tell us, we could not know. Whatever theories we came up with, we cannot be sure whether it is true or not.
ndqanh_vn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 04:31   Link #28707
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
True, but we have to get our fix somehow.

For example, what did you mean by this?

Quote:
Both Battler himself and Erika noted, that Battler seems smarter than "he should be" in EP5-6. But if we go with EP6 genius Battler, it is more probable that EP1-4 Battler was out of character instead (imagining a 12 year old Battler in the body of a 18 year old Battler), and EP5-6 Battler was closer to Prime-reality.
Plus new people like me occasionally get sucked in while looking for answers to some of the murders that they want confirmed, there is still no comprehensive cheat sheet to these, so you must do a lot of digging.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 04:46   Link #28708
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
This is also interesting. Not only does this have odd indications for how Battler got into the tunnel without Eva, but this means we had Ryu talking about objective perspective earlier than Ep 5.

Quote:
Concerning the scene where Battler is shot, since Battler witnesses the moment the gun is fired, basically there is no mistake about that
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 04:47   Link #28709
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
For example, what did you mean by this?
I was answering jjblue1's post about Yasu fearing the change that happened in Battler. My argument is, that she shows this fear by NOT ADRESSING the inner change in Battler, besides the growth of his body. His character in EP1-4 (escpacially 1-2) is like that of a 12 year old. He doesn't seem to know anything and has to ask others, he is like a Watson. Although he is said to have read many mysteries, his reasoning about the closed rooms is ridiculous, escpacially his piece-part. The Meta-Battler also reflects this behavior.

In EP5 Meta-Battler says about his Piece self, that he is not in control of anymore: "I am way too smart in this story". But my theory (and many others), is that EP5 is at least BASED ON a witch-hunter forgery. The forgers have no problem to get to know about Battler's personality, as they would just have to ask his high-school class mates.

In EP6 Erika notes about Piece-Battler that the witches game made him smarter, but that cannot apply for a piece, as the piece is always (supposed to be) the same. The pieces don't experience the witches game. But still the piece DID become smarter. And since Battler supposedly knows himself better than Yasu knows him, I conclude that this version has more weight.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 05:14   Link #28710
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Also after rereading our confession, it is pretty clear that the higher world mystery arguments are included in the forgeries, despite this being pretty hard to pull off in real life. Unless they were handed out beforehand, like some speculate.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 12:51   Link #28711
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Or it's another layer of lies and meta-shenanigans.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 13:51   Link #28712
Witch of Uncertainty
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I was answering jjblue1's post about Yasu fearing the change that happened in Battler. My argument is, that she shows this fear by NOT ADRESSING the inner change in Battler, besides the growth of his body. His character in EP1-4 (escpacially 1-2) is like that of a 12 year old. He doesn't seem to know anything and has to ask others, he is like a Watson. Although he is said to have read many mysteries, his reasoning about the closed rooms is ridiculous, escpacially his piece-part. The Meta-Battler also reflects this behavior.

In EP5 Meta-Battler says about his Piece self, that he is not in control of anymore: "I am way too smart in this story". But my theory (and many others), is that EP5 is at least BASED ON a witch-hunter forgery. The forgers have no problem to get to know about Battler's personality, as they would just have to ask his high-school class mates.

In EP6 Erika notes about Piece-Battler that the witches game made him smarter, but that cannot apply for a piece, as the piece is always (supposed to be) the same. The pieces don't experience the witches game. But still the piece DID become smarter. And since Battler supposedly knows himself better than Yasu knows him, I conclude that this version has more weight.
Didn't Battler write episode 3-4, though?
Witch of Uncertainty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 17:07   Link #28713
GreyZone
"Senior" "Member"
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty View Post
Didn't Battler write episode 3-4, though?
Not really. If we go by Ikuko=Yasu, then Ikuko could be the one who wrote EPs 3-5, just as she said in Dawn.

And even if we go by Ikuko=RandomStranger, it is no problem at all, if we assume that Battler had only vague memories of himself and the incident and so Ikuko couldn't characterize Battler well (Until EP5/EP6).

Compared to EP1-2, the Battler in EP3-4 was a bit more mature, but still stupid.
GreyZone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 19:57   Link #28714
CrimsonMoonMist
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Age: 21
That's quite interesting.
So the way the witches utilized the Battler piece by making him smarter was rather, coupled with the 'a piece can't do anything the person isn't capable of' statement, a hint towards the previous writers dumbing down Battler rather than the witches hightening his skills.

Maybe something like Tohya not remembering himself too well by the beginning and getting a clearer picture of Battler as their forgeries went on.

It makes a interesting addition to the Ikuko=Yasu theory as well
since of course Yasu'd characterize Battler like he was before his 6-year long abscence
and that'd keep fueling Battler's characterization after Yasu's EP1-2
through her Ikuko identity when Tohya himself was not certain of it.

I always just thought that being within a tragedy is a completely different thing than reading about a fictional one for intellectual exercise
and that's why he acted the way he did, and the change in EP5 was a mixture between no tragedy having occured yet and him working off Erika,
but this sounds quite a lot more interesting.

Last edited by CrimsonMoonMist; 2012-05-06 at 20:22.
CrimsonMoonMist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 20:23   Link #28715
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
I've always wondered if EP 6 tells us how it went according to Battler's point of view.
In short he went on Rokkenjima and found a Shannon that was different from how he remembered and that didn't seem to remember him (in the sense she was apparently in love with George and therefore didn't care anymore about him) drawing some sort of parallelism between Prime Shannon and chick Beato.

Also in both EP 5&6 the fake murdering game might have been Battler's idea so I wonder if in Prime Shannon's mystery game might have ended up crossing with Battler's mystery game, creating confusion and panic and pushing things downill.

Another interesting parallelism is that in EP 6 Battler ends up trapped in a closed room he had constructed. In real life he was 'trapped' out of Rokkenjima due to his own decision to leave the Ushiromiya. In the game he likely could solve the logic error but he wanted Beato to do it. In real life he might have been expecting Shannon to do 'something' (maybe leaving the island on her own and reaching him? or giving him a sign she still was interested in him once he went on Rokkenjima?).

It's sort of funny to think both of them could have been trying to get the other to remember the other.

Though maybe I'm reading too much in those scenes...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 22:09   Link #28716
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Hm, well, I'm of the opinion that "Ryukishi portrays the pieces as they generally were in their actual lives", so I don't view it as Battler getting objectively smarter, but being given the chance to show off his intelligence in different situations. A large part of it IMO is just that Battler is, with certainty, an accomplice of some sort in both End and Dawn, and doesn't think his parents have been literally murder-fied and de-faced in the shed or something.

Also, it doesn't say when exactly Tohya got his old memories back, but he claims to eventually remember being Battler extreeeemely well, and it's only the 86' conference that remains fuzzy.

Also, I rather agree with ndqanh_vn's sentiment about Yasu's love being, sometimes, less than the thing we'd usually associate the word with. Rather, I think she acknowledged a lot of genuine loving emotions, but she doesn't seem to consider Jessica a very viable option, and Yasu / Battler, in Prime, barely have ANY sort of actual relationship. Beato and Meta Battler have a pretty strong one, but I don't equate Beatrice and Yasu in that respect. At any rate, one wonders what the "smaller, curious incident" she was planning in 1986 before knowing Battler was returning would have been.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-06, 22:27   Link #28717
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
We already know Battler is capable of being extremely intelligent, since that's a trait that goes all the way back to Legend when he's in Kinzo's study. It does seem that, in general, he's dumbed down, but on the other hand he may not be an evil genius either. Even at his smartest, as portrayed in End, he's certainly not materializing the solution to the epitaph out of thin air with no assistance or hints.

It's not at all hard to imagine that if Battler were made an accomplice, he would be quite adept at it. After all, he likes mysteries. If he got a chance to participate in a murder mystery game and knew about it ahead of time, no doubt he'd jump right into it with all he's got. The question I always had is, if Battler is drafted to become an accomplice, what circumstances would have to arise to allow this?

As far as we know from ep1-2, the supposed "original" stories, Battler is kind of left out of the loop. And going by Alliance, the whole thing seems to have been done for him specifically. So for him to effectively shift sides in the ep5-6 forgeries is odd. There's the possible excuse of the epitaph in End, but how do you explain Dawn?

I have to think there's something End/Dawn Battler does that Legend/Turn Battler doesn't. One idea I always liked entertaining is that ep5 Battler remembered the promise. Whether that's closer to Prime or not, it's an interesting parallel and it allows for ep1-2 to mirror ep5-6 in the sense that they're what things would look like if Battler had remembered. Battler remembering of course moves him into Beatrice's circle and out of play as he's now hiding a secret from the audience, so Erika has to be introduced to compensate. There's no need for that with a tabula rasa Battler as in Legend, so he can serve as the detective/viewpoint just fine.

But really, who knows, since we're not told a whole lot about the 4th in Chiru.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-07, 00:38   Link #28718
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Also, it doesn't say when exactly Tohya got his old memories back, but he claims to eventually remember being Battler extreeeemely well, and it's only the 86' conference that remains fuzzy.
I've always suspected that he was lying to Yukari about the conference being fuzzy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's the possible excuse of the epitaph in End, but how do you explain Dawn?
In End, Battler already knew the way to the gold. That's what I think the whole "Kinzo pointed the way" thing was about.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-07, 08:33   Link #28719
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
How so? I mean, let's even suppose that someone told him, then he knew about the whole solution and not just where the secret door was. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

But the question is who and why would tell Battler the solution? For what purpose? Seeing as how Battler cooperated with Erika all the time it makes little sense that he's been told so to become the new heir. Why would he need to cooperate with a complete stranger if he already knew the solution? Especially considering that he already understood she was a bad person before pointing to the right direction.

The only logical explanation is that someone told the solution to Battler for the very purpose of helping Erika (which would explain how in the world they understood they needed to go to the chapel, when Erika wasn't supposed to have any knowledge of it and Battler wasn't supposed to remember it at all). But yet again, why?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-07, 09:57   Link #28720
PsychoShion
Junior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Age: 39
The Truth

Rosa did it, george was her accomplice, and nanjo helped them out.

The 2nd arc was basically the truth.

Rosa feeling guilty for killing beatrice caused her to have a complex. She would visit rokkenjima on non familiy lmeetings and knew shannon and did her some favors. Rosa and geroge combined could pull it off after batler shows up because shannon says no to george, thats why it was bad that battler came back that day, because it was the same day george proposed so shannon was confusedand rosa uses maria to plant the seeds of the witch, rosa looks like beatrice and if you look at itkuto she has the same hair style as rosa but dyed black.

nanjo then was used to lie about who was dead, rosa had already told rudu;f her plan thats why he said i might die tonight.

why was rosa in the gold room in the 3rd arc? how did rosa die in the third arc, george fought rosa, and choked maria. think back to episode 8 geroge was the one that was suppose to be the suspect of killikng a child. rudulf anf kyrie was all a troll for ange. remember in 7 when beatrice was waiting in the gold room, niow think back to the third game rosa was waiting when eva showed up.

Rosa set it all up so eva would take the blame. ROSA-GEORGE did it then they had a falling out.

after geroge was denied by shannon on the proposel, thats when things went to hell

look at itkuto's hair its exactly like rosa's why u think she got mad at maria for talking about witchs? Because she didnt want her plan to be known. Rosa wrote all the letters and forgeries...

the whole yasu thing is a trick, the shannon- kannon thing was purposely done to trick you all from the real truth. In episode 2 kanon even says it, he says "Rosa said she'd kill us all"

look back at the games, the yasu thing was a trap and u all fell for it, did you honestly believe a tale by bernkastel that seemed tame was the truth LOL.

R7 tricked you all, and RENALL you can relax now because there never was a shannon- kanon- answer to the mystery. ROSA and george becaue she knew george could manipilate the servants and rosa and maria did the rest. there was no shannon and kanon switching clothes. Shannon and kanon are fakes they dont exist. Rosa wrote the the two stories and especally the 3rd one to frame eva .

NO YASU- episode 7 was a lie the thruth was there all along there was a murderer, rosa did it. Now re read them all and you will see what im talking about. A closed cat box? nope Episode 2 is as close to the truth you will get.

Remember how battler realizes all of a sudden beatrices game and he says oh i finally understand.......well remember when rosa was forced to eat her siblings at the end of episode 2... beatrice said oh now u realize that your problems were caused by your siblings, then all of a sudden battler who had surrenderd to his very soul to be beatrices furniture all of a sudden he said seeing rosa's will power he was brought back. that mirrors the end of arc 5 when he finally understands all. What he is understanding is the pain and regret that rosa has held all these years.

Think of it imagine you felt you killed your fathers precious daughter and holding that in your whole life. I think rosa brought maria to that old manison on their trips to rokkenjima.


ALL the shannon-0kanon stuff is a trap, and is trying the mind screw you.....we all wanted a true truth of what happened on prime, well if you concentrate on all of rosa's actions, i mean in arc two maria and rosa are on a train on their way to meet their family which is pary of the riddle. Rosa knew the epitaph and solved it. The first arc was just to show us how strange murders could happen. But if u watch eipisode 2 and then 3 her actions connnect. episode 4 seemed like a contingency plan.

So be happy their is a murderer, its ROsa, George, and nanjo helped.

NO YASU EVER EXISTED, there is no kanon he was wrritten in so when the manuscript in the bottle was recived it would be blamed on the servants, but she then wrote episode 3 to set up eva. up yasu was purposely made in the 1-4 arcs so u would think it had to be shkannon. R7 did that on purpose, i mean come on a writer who changes her identity whenever she wants LOL

Rosa Survived but the whole battler survivor thing is fake. Thats why Rosa met with ange and ange wrote about sakturo because she died on the island and wanted her daughter to continue her magic only in a way ange could.



the whole yasu thing nevr made any sense,


DONT YOU GET IT??? THE ENTIRE SERIES IS A CONFESSION BY ROSA!!!!!!!!without her getting the blame.
and the battler thing is a fantasy by ange.
__________________
PsychoShion is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.