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Old 2012-05-07, 00:21   Link #21301
sneaker
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Join Date: Dec 2008
I wouldn't even have voted for Sarkozy if I were anti-immigration. He had 5 years to do something, but he only got rid of some Roma. He didn't kärcher the suburbs and nor did he do anything about Italy passing on its African immigrants.
All he tried in the last years was to prevent the crisis from hitting France until the elections, but even that didn't help him. I don't want to be in Hollande's seat, who is going to visit Merkel pretty soon. After that we'll see what happens in Europe next. Probably some "growth pact" along with the "fiscal pact". Rerouting some EU money so neither Merkel nor Hollande will have to lose their faces (which is more important to them than serving their taxpayers).
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Old 2012-05-07, 01:37   Link #21302
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Note: You are supposed to eat the pie, not let the pie eat you.
I rather eat the pie from inside out than eat a smaller pie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The pie isn't growing faster for everyone in the latter scenario... its only growing for the .01%. Lets not fall into the "job creator" mythology...
The "non-job creator" myth also needs to die.



France: I have this bad feeling for the future.
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Old 2012-05-07, 02:45   Link #21303
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
His politics was all about fear and division.
He accepted he couldn't please everyone. Which brings us back to "he got things done".

Quote:
He made the UMP a second FN...
If anything, he never kept his most nationalistic promises, so no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Why Sarkozy was hated? Men, I don't know what to tell you, when you say African people have no history,
Not what he said.

Quote:
all civilisations aren't equals,
Not the one who said it, and anyway, so what?

Quote:
playing with fire and racism,
What, because he wants an immigration policy other than taking all comers? I'm the son of immigrants. It is possible that in the near future, the economic situation will deteriorate to the point where I'll want to immigrate into some other country. But I can still respect that a country wants to choose whom to let in, with whatever criteria they want.

Quote:
saying gtfo to Europe after 5 years of being a "pro europe" simply to get reelected,
And when did he ever stop being pro-European?
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Old 2012-05-07, 03:06   Link #21304
konart
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Putin's 3rd inauguration is live on Euronews
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Old 2012-05-07, 04:19   Link #21305
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Problem is that the 1950's was when all the repressed consumerism exploded, leading to that expansion. You cannot compare that time with the rampant greed in modern days. Furthermore, in today's fast transactions, one can easily move wealth outside to tax havens. Simply, anyone who points to the 1950's to say high taxes are good need to get a reality check.
It's about taxing income, not wealth. Also in Europe the social costs of moving to a tax haven are a lot higher, given differences in language and culture.
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Old 2012-05-07, 04:45   Link #21306
Slick_rick
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I applaud the French people's move. It was time for change as austerity was never going to work. It was trying to place the debt burden on the poor and working classes. The idea that if you making thousands of people lose their livelihoods and cutting program that help people them survive it wouldn't somehow depress the economy further is absurd. Most poor and working class spend most of their money which goes right back into the economy and their local businesses. Also job creators are far from only those well off, in fact I'd say that is generally the opposite, a lot of small business are started about it community by reality poor families. These business succeed or fail based on the people in the communities financial health. Job loses have a tendency to reverberate quickly in these places.

The idea that the more money a person has the more they'll spend isn't true. A person might spend more lavishly as they earn more money but they'll also save more and having gains in income from taxes cuts isn't going to make you spend much more, if any either. If you're used to a certain lifestyle your going to spend a certain amount as a matter of course.

I don't consider this class warfare, more like common sense. The banks and investors are the ones mainly to blame for this crisis yet it seems the poor and working class are taking the load for their mistakes. If the government isn't willing to go after them directly and forcibly then these means are the best. The only thing I worry about is if Hollande is able to stand up against the status quo bankers and politicians from around the world who will try to control him from behind the scenes.

Honestly I think the whole global financial market needs to be scrapped. It's a joke with countries just indebted to each other trying to stave off taking responsibility for their expenses. They need to find a way to forgive each other debt and work out a compromise. After that they can scrap the IMF and World bank; they were never anything other that an large scale extortion schemes anyway.

Either way, I'll give you the Bro Fist France. I knew all those bad things they said about weren't true.
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Old 2012-05-07, 07:24   Link #21307
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The "non-job creator" myth also needs to die.
What myth? Rich people don't make jobs anymore. They get more money? They invest it. Straight from Stephen King's mouth, a bonafide rich guy. I'm sure a couple of rich people create jobs, but aren't those the 1% of the 1%? And how many jobs do they make compared to the amount of tax breaks they get? If they get $1 million in tax breaks, do they then hire 200 people at $50k a year? Of course not. They might hire 4 people at $26k a year. If that.
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Old 2012-05-07, 08:08   Link #21308
monsta666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
What myth? Rich people don't make jobs anymore. They get more money? They invest it. Straight from Stephen King's mouth, a bonafide rich guy. I'm sure a couple of rich people create jobs, but aren't those the 1% of the 1%? And how many jobs do they make compared to the amount of tax breaks they get? If they get $1 million in tax breaks, do they then hire 200 people at $50k a year? Of course not. They might hire 4 people at $26k a year. If that.
More likely to outsource those four peoples' jobs to a low-wage country. That way their £1 million tax break becomes £1.1 million tax break! Seriously though demand creates jobs not tax breaks. This is especially true in the states which is a consumer-driven economy. If the consumers don't have the money to spend the economy will not grow. So real wages have to go up. Also on another note with the rising inequality the term average wage losses more relevance as most of the rises are the result of the rich getting richer. A more meaningful measurement would be the median wage but that is less frequently cited.

Oh and I think you meant 20 people not 200!
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Old 2012-05-07, 08:11   Link #21309
GDB
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I did mean 20, yes. I was still rather groggy when I posted.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:32   Link #21310
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
...
No sense sir, when your government talk bullshit, if you don't go against them then you agree with them. He was their direct chief, and the chief always take for the subordonate.

It's bothersome we won't argue of this here, he lost, now there's the third round and we will talk once again in 5 years if we are in the Greece state, a better state or no change.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:43   Link #21311
JMvS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
It's about taxing income, not wealth. Also in Europe the social costs of moving to a tax haven are a lot higher, given differences in language and culture.
Errm, just so you know, since the beginning of the French presidential campaign, the expected exodus of high-incomes and entrepreneurs to French-speaking, low tax, business friendly Switzerland has been a reccurent topic here.

And the French are not in dearth of culturally close countries with less punitive taxation/regulations only a few hours away from Paris, as aside from Switzerland, you've got Belgium and Luxemburg, or even London which has so many French emigrates that it is rated as France's 5th largest city.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:52   Link #21312
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He accepted he couldn't please everyone. Which brings us back to "he got things done".


If anything, he never kept his most nationalistic promises, so no.
It's not about doing or not doing something, it's about spreading fear and division in people's mind. I don't care if he never kept his promise. The fact is that he made the UMP a second FN because he used the same words and the same tactic than the FN. That's all and that's the truth.

During these five years, he created a huge divide between french population that no one did before, no one. It's unforgivable and I'm glad that this man will not be at the head of your state after the 15 May.
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Old 2012-05-07, 12:07   Link #21313
Vexx
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
During these five years, he created a huge divide between french population that no one did before, no one. It's unforgivable and I'm glad that this man will not be at the head of your state after the 15 May.
I think it was more a general failure by the French government *before* and *during* Sarkozy's administration to integrate the incoming population, to instill French values and principles in them, to make sure they became valuable producing members of French society. But Sarkozy, instead of addressing the need to fix that, used their existence to appeal to the extreme right.

In the US, there's a problem on both left and right - the left resists encouraging immigrants to integrate, the right doesn't want them at all.
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Old 2012-05-07, 14:32   Link #21314
Xellos-_^
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Age: 38
Quote:
Police interviewed Lewis, who detailed various times, starting in February, when she said her son stopped breathing and turned blue. She said she was the only adult present in the family home and hospital rooms when this happened.
"After describing each incident and repeatedly saying how frustrated and stressed she is by having virtually all the child care responsibilities for C.A.W. and her older child, Lewis finally admitted she 'snapped' and did something very wrong," the complaint said. "She said she had lied. She said she wanted C.A.W. to 'do something' so medical staff could 'find something' and 'help' C.A.W. more quickly."
She told police she had squeezed the baby's nose closed and held his mouth shut. She said the baby "fought me" by kicking his legs, so she stopped and pushed the button to call the nurse, the complaint said.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,1286171.story

i am sure a huge number of people form the pro-life camp is just waiting to help this young woman cope with her kids. Instead of condemning her for having kids out of of marriage.
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Old 2012-05-07, 15:26   Link #21315
Rahan
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Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I think it was more a general failure by the French government *before* and *during* Sarkozy's administration to integrate the incoming population, to instill French values and principles in them, to make sure they became valuable producing members of French society. But Sarkozy, instead of addressing the need to fix that, used their existence to appeal to the extreme right.

In the US, there's a problem on both left and right - the left resists encouraging immigrants to integrate, the right doesn't want them at all.
Immigration is not even close from being the only point of division in Sarkozy's France ...

Sarkozy was all about public service against private sector, jobless persons (called the "assisted") against the rest of the country.
As a last resort, 2 weeks ago, he invented the "true / real work" which is done by the non-syndicated workers in an attempt to drive away the workers from the syndicates (which are not pleased with his politics)
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Old 2012-05-07, 16:48   Link #21316
AnimeFan188
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
US: CIA thwarts new al-Qaida underwear bomb plot

"The CIA thwarted an ambitious plot by al-Qaida's affiliate in Yemen to destroy a
U.S.-bound airliner using a bomb with a sophisticated new design around the one-
year anniversary of the killing of Osama bin Laden, The Associated Press has
learned.

The plot involved an upgrade of the underwear bomb that failed to detonate
aboard a jetliner over Detroit on Christmas 2009. This new bomb was also
designed to be used in a passenger's underwear, but this time al-Qaida
developed a more refined detonation system, U.S. officials said."

See:

http://news.yahoo.com/us-cia-thwarts...200836835.html
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Old 2012-05-07, 17:31   Link #21317
Kokukirin
Shadow of Effilisi
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I applaud the French people's move. It was time for change as austerity was never going to work. It was trying to place the debt burden on the poor and working classes. The idea that if you making thousands of people lose their livelihoods and cutting program that help people them survive it wouldn't somehow depress the economy further is absurd. Most poor and working class spend most of their money which goes right back into the economy and their local businesses. Also job creators are far from only those well off, in fact I'd say that is generally the opposite, a lot of small business are started about it community by reality poor families. These business succeed or fail based on the people in the communities financial health. Job loses have a tendency to reverberate quickly in these places.

The idea that the more money a person has the more they'll spend isn't true. A person might spend more lavishly as they earn more money but they'll also save more and having gains in income from taxes cuts isn't going to make you spend much more, if any either. If you're used to a certain lifestyle your going to spend a certain amount as a matter of course.

I don't consider this class warfare, more like common sense. The banks and investors are the ones mainly to blame for this crisis yet it seems the poor and working class are taking the load for their mistakes. If the government isn't willing to go after them directly and forcibly then these means are the best. The only thing I worry about is if Hollande is able to stand up against the status quo bankers and politicians from around the world who will try to control him from behind the scenes.

Honestly I think the whole global financial market needs to be scrapped. It's a joke with countries just indebted to each other trying to stave off taking responsibility for their expenses. They need to find a way to forgive each other debt and work out a compromise. After that they can scrap the IMF and World bank; they were never anything other that an large scale extortion schemes anyway.

Either way, I'll give you the Bro Fist France. I knew all those bad things they said about weren't true.
The finance sector was largely to blame for the financial crisis. But the national debt that France government took on was not. The debt was a result of spending beyond its means during the good times. It funded all the social programs that benefit the poor and middle class. In other words, they had been receiving the good stuff that they would not have received if the past governments were more fiscally responsible. I tend to see these handouts as benefits that shouldn't be given in the first place. But people are so used to them now that they see the benefits as their core interest.

France already taxes the rich at a relatively high rate. Sure it can further increase the rate, but the rich also have more means to move their fortune beyond the reach of tax collectors. There is no guarantee that a higher income tax on the rich will have its desired results.

I don't disagree with the notion that spending to help the middle class and poor will lift the economy more effectively than, say, tax breaks for the rich. But without a way to get more revenues, such programs will force France to take on even more debt. The Keynesian solution of spending your way out of recession works in the short term. But I don't know if France can actually deal with the mountain of debt created by this approach in the medium and long term.
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Old 2012-05-07, 18:34   Link #21318
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i am sure a huge number of people form the pro-life camp is just waiting to help this young woman cope with her kids. Instead of condemning her for having kids out of of marriage.
Is that sarcasm or you are serious ?
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Old 2012-05-07, 18:36   Link #21319
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
The finance sector was largely to blame for the financial crisis. But the national debt that France government took on was not. The debt was a result of spending beyond its means during the good times. It funded all the social programs that benefit the poor and middle class.
That, and our civil servants. There's got to be ways to improve efficiency, but it our administrations are rather resistant to change.

Quote:
In other words, they had been receiving the good stuff that they would not have received if the past governments were more fiscally responsible. I tend to see these handouts as benefits that shouldn't be given in the first place. But people are so used to them now that they see the benefits as their core interest.

France already taxes the rich at a relatively high rate.
Not the very rich. We've got the same tax loophole problem as the US, and I guess everyone has.

Quote:
Sure it can further increase the rate, but the rich also have more means to move their fortune beyond the reach of tax collectors. There is no guarantee that a higher income tax on the rich will have its desired results.
Eh. Hollande set the bar pretty low on the desired result. He admitted it was just for the symbol, and didn't care about the rest. (I'd prefer more of an economy of motion, but whatever. Vox populi, vox dei.)

Quote:
I don't disagree with the notion that spending to help the middle class and poor will lift the economy more effectively than, say, tax breaks for the rich. But without a way to get more revenues, such programs will force France to take on even more debt. The Keynesian solution of spending your way out of recession works in the short term. But I don't know if France can actually deal with the mountain of debt created by this approach in the medium and long term.
Yeah. He says he's going to reduce the debt, but he's counting on growth to do that. I'd prefer less optimistic (not to mention self-servingly wishful) assumptions.

Also, if we're going to spend money we don't have, we should invest it instead of just hiring more civil servants.
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Old 2012-05-07, 18:45   Link #21320
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Is that sarcasm or you are serious ?
it would be the Christian thing to do. i am sure all those pro-life Christians are just chomping at the bits to help this young woman.
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