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Old 2012-05-06, 12:06   Link #261
DragoZERO
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Same here. Interviews are good for learning about the process of things. What ifs and speculation are a bit much. It's all too common to have fans who know more than the original creator and the questions are just pointless.

For example, someone asking why Naruto's clone's hand is a different size on page two comparing it to that of page three. Suggesting that it was due to a poor technique used by Naruto or something. It just so happened to be drawn that way with no special attention.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:11   Link #262
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Every sword that Shirou/Archer traces isn't perfect. That's why they're always a rank lower than they would be if it were the real deal.

As for Kansho and Bakuya, what do you mean uber powerful? Archer's are rank C if I recall, meaning the originals would be rank B. That barely puts them on the same level as Gae Bolg, and unlike Gae Bolg they don't have a sure-fire kill ability.
The original Kansho and Bakuya had a strong anti-monster bonus that can allow them to defeat something like Caster's monster in one strike. Archer can't replicate that because it's a divine blessing.

My understanding is that it works the same for Excalibur. He can create a sword that looks like Excalibur and has similar abilities, but it's something more like Excalipoor than Excalibur. It just lacks something compared to the original, so the downgrade is worse than with regular weapons.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:37   Link #263
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The problem is that UBW was described as a workshop that -reproduce- swords Emiya has encountered in his life, keeping the blueprints in the said UBW.
Granted, the ability can be imagined as a mere "cauldron" smelting material (prana) into the swords, so he could do swords of his own, but evidences and descriptions show that Emiya only replicate them, and does not actually take bits of them, to create an "original" weapon.
The words used by Archer when explaining about his ability leaves little doubts about that.

I'm also a bit annoyed by the contradicting statements regarding "traced Excalibur", considering the sword itself is a divine weapon forged by the planet, so Emiya being able to reproduce it is a bit weird (wouldn't it be on the same level as Enuma Elish anyway?)
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:41   Link #264
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The materials merely need to exist. I guess Ea used up all traces of the material's existence, and thus cannot be replicated? In other words, a wizard Golden Ego did it.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:43   Link #265
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I'm pretty sure Shirou basically got a "Blue screen of death": he couldn't even comprehend Ea structure, and was unable to even make a "blueprint" of it, meaning he doesn't have even the grasp of "what" the material are.

Which is quite something, because he still could trace weapons the likes of Caladbolg, Caliburn etc.
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Old 2012-05-07, 11:50   Link #266
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Yeah, Shirou was unable to even read in Ea. The only other weapon that he had similar problems with was Gem Sword Zelretch but he managed to overcome that one (although he felt that the result wasn't quite right. Rin seemed to think it was fine though).
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Old 2012-05-07, 14:16   Link #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is that UBW was described as a workshop that -reproduce- swords Emiya has encountered in his life, keeping the blueprints in the said UBW.
Granted, the ability can be imagined as a mere "cauldron" smelting material (prana) into the swords, so he could do swords of his own, but evidences and descriptions show that Emiya only replicate them, and does not actually take bits of them, to create an "original" weapon.
The words used by Archer when explaining about his ability leaves little doubts about that.

I'm also a bit annoyed by the contradicting statements regarding "traced Excalibur", considering the sword itself is a divine weapon forged by the planet, so Emiya being able to reproduce it is a bit weird (wouldn't it be on the same level as Enuma Elish anyway?)
i thought Excalipoor was a fairy forge weapon?
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Old 2012-05-07, 21:11   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The problem is that UBW was described as a workshop that -reproduce- swords Emiya has encountered in his life, keeping the blueprints in the said UBW.
Granted, the ability can be imagined as a mere "cauldron" smelting material (prana) into the swords, so he could do swords of his own, but evidences and descriptions show that Emiya only replicate them, and does not actually take bits of them, to create an "original" weapon.
The words used by Archer when explaining about his ability leaves little doubts about that.

I'm also a bit annoyed by the contradicting statements regarding "traced Excalibur", considering the sword itself is a divine weapon forged by the planet, so Emiya being able to reproduce it is a bit weird (wouldn't it be on the same level as Enuma Elish anyway?)
Shirou was reconned to not being able to forge Excalibur in a authors blog. Apparently the Excalibur in Heaven's Feal was likely something that produces a similar affect to the actual Exculibur and Shirou due to the fact that he was insane at that time just assumed that the sword was Excalibur.
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Old 2012-05-08, 04:25   Link #269
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Same here. Interviews are good for learning about the process of things. What ifs and speculation are a bit much. It's all too common to have fans who know more than the original creator and the questions are just pointless.

For example, someone asking why Naruto's clone's hand is a different size on page two comparing it to that of page three. Suggesting that it was due to a poor technique used by Naruto or something. It just so happened to be drawn that way with no special attention.
Except the interview was straight from Kinoko Nasu's mouth, and he explicitly pointed out that UBW cannot replicate Excalibur and Ea. If you really drill the original text, it was "Shirou intended to project Excalibur" and then you see a beam attack. The game never showed what was in his hands in text or graphics. It was simply a case of the game not clearly conveying the author's original ideas, like the whole "WHO PROJECTED THE RHO AIAS" deal in UBW route several years back.

You can insist that your interpretation is better, but don't pass it off as the author's original intention.
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:40   Link #270
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There was one item (Since I cannot be sure with Caliburn) that Shirou managed to trace perfectly, and that is Avalon. Since its concept is the 'ideal of all men' and thus absolutely perfect and cannot be destroyed, it fits extremely well with Shirou, who held in his heart an impossible-to-achieve ideal.

I also mentioned in the LN thread before (Though largely ignored >.>) that Shirou is a 'forge only for Saber'. It IS possible to replicate a weapon perfectly as long as you don't miss every detail about the weapon. Shirou/Archer's UBW will always replicate a weapon that's subpar to the original because he has no knowledge about the wielder's life themselves, but with Saber it is a totally different thing. To start with, Shirou has absolute disregard for his own life and cared only about others, so when he fought enemies and replicating their weapons - for the sake of his own life and ideals - it could never match the quality when he had wanted to be of use to Saber and produce a weapon worthy for her to wield. His skill had increased, but his heart would never wish as strongly as it did then.

Again, remember that Noble Phantasms are actually the powers of concept. It is true that he cannot trace Excalibur, but he understood what Excalibur's concept stand for (I don't remember too well, but something like the hope and victory of all men?) and so can trace a weapon similar to that effect and cut down Angra Manyu.

Lastly, about Ea. Gilgamesh owns everything in the world, and thus there is nothing from that world he cannot obtain, and in that sense, nothing in the world is fit as a weapon to match his status, because he is the one and only and absolute king of the world. Therefore, the only weapon that could match his status would be one that is apart of the world, a unique weapon that could easily destroy the world just as its master choose to discard his play toy. Therefore Shirou can never trace it because his skill allow to copy anything within the world - as long as he has the power - but not one that is alien to it.

In fact, you can say Ea is in total opposite in attribute with Shirou: He wants to protect everyone's happiness, where Ea destroys everything.
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:58   Link #271
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I figured he was only able to project Avalon perfectly because he had it within him. He didn't really "trace" it like he does everything else, but rather materialize what was already there. It's why Archer comments about him "still having the sheath" in surprise, because he was expecting Shirou to have already removed it from his body.
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Old 2012-05-08, 10:05   Link #272
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He later gave it to Saber before he projected it, and even if Avalon is inside him doesn't mean that he just trace it right? His bones are literally made of swords and jutting out of his body when he was half dead and his magic going out of control, but you don't see their ranks going up lawl.
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Old 2012-05-08, 10:20   Link #273
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He actually has to comprehend the actual weapon, not the conceptual existence of it. Rin explained thoroughly the basis of his Magic, and from that point, he only has to figure the weapon in its essence to actually trace it.
Avalon is the only exception because it was within him. Hell, even with Saber's memories and all, he could -not- trace Caliburn perfectly either.

Suffice to say, it isn't based on the wielder's life whatsoever.
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Old 2012-05-08, 10:31   Link #274
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Except the interview was straight from Kinoko Nasu's mouth, and he explicitly pointed out that UBW cannot replicate Excalibur and Ea. If you really drill the original text, it was "Shirou intended to project Excalibur" and then you see a beam attack. The game never showed what was in his hands in text or graphics. It was simply a case of the game not clearly conveying the author's original ideas, like the whole "WHO PROJECTED THE RHO AIAS" deal in UBW route several years back.

You can insist that your interpretation is better, but don't pass it off as the author's original intention.
I never insisted that my interpretation was better nor did I pass it off as if I wrote the game. Hell, I didn't even give an interpretation. I gave my opinion on what interviews should be used for. The interview mentioned UBW, not tracing and replicating from scratch.

Don't put words in someone's mouth.
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Old 2012-05-08, 10:46   Link #275
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The wielder's life IS part of the sword's memories from the very beginning he or she touches the sword, to the end of it - hence, the sword can even act on it's own based on its accumulated experience.
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Old 2012-05-08, 10:51   Link #276
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The "experience" of the NP has really no implication of how he needs them to trace the weapons. The proof is how Caliburn shattered like nothing. On the other hand, Shirou didn't need to see through Herakles past to replicate Nine Live Works.

Shirou actually can analyze the weapons and all the things related to them (thus, experience etc, assuming he can "comprehend" the structure), due to the nature of replicating NP. But past that, Avalon's case is a different story.
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Old 2012-05-08, 11:46   Link #277
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I personally still think that it should be included as one of the things required to replicate the weapon; leaving out the sword's memories would be detrimental to the replication.
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Old 2012-05-08, 12:30   Link #278
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UBW "projection" does recreate the experience of the traced object, that is indeed a fact and is the reason why the traced objects have even the skills of the original weapon. But that doesn't mean he has to "understand" the user's memories whatsoever (hell, he wouldn't have the opportunity nor the time to do that for EACH weapon Gilgamesh threw at him).
That being said, the main issue with your claim is that Avalon could be traced because he "understood" it and by the same logic, Excalibur could be reproduced perfectly as well.

The thing is that Shirou does analyze the weapons experience in the same process, due to UBW, and is the very reason why he could replicate things he shouldn't be able such like Nine Live Works. Due to this, Shirou has been able to reproduce weapons and their skills without even knowing about their wielder, which says a lot of his ability to analyze the weapons he sees.
The point however is that even Caliburn, being directly "explained" by Saber through her memories in Shirou's dream shattered (despite he did make a "perfect" duplication, considering how he went as far as recreating the maker's efforts, which is the base difference between normal projection and UBW projection). Therefore, even the most "intimate" memory doesn't allow Shirou to make the best reproduction of it.

Therefore, the reason why Avalon was being replicated in such extent was because of the artifact was literally embedded in his body, which means his body is literally affected by the blueprint of the scabbard.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-05-08 at 12:52.
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Old 2012-05-08, 14:39   Link #279
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I'm actually no longer arguing about the Excalibur thing. As mentioned before, he was just reproducing a power with similar effect to Excalibur, one that holds the same concept.

And about tracing, what I meant is to replicate a sword perfectly, Shirou cannot help but need every single detail about the weapon's life and not just's its blueprint. It's of course possible to make a poor fake just basing on that, but the more he learns about the sword's life - the one that wielded it, the other weapons it has crossed against, etc etc - the closer to perfection it gets.

But Avalon is obviously a NP of such standard that it could not be compared to even at Ea's level. The sheath itself was merely a symbol; what's most important is the concept it represented, and that means that the NP itself is something infinitely close to spiritual/conceptual than physical things such as materials, etc. Of course I am not denying that having Avalon in his body for so long has skyrocketed his Tracing of it, what you said is absolutely correct. But if I remember correctly, it was mentioned that, when Saber and Shirou both used Avalon together, they are not actually using two different Avalon, but two symbols of existence of the same Avalon. Hence that it why the Avalon Shirou traced is not only the best replication he has ever made, we can even say that he has reproduced Avalon perfectly.
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Old 2012-05-08, 21:18   Link #280
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Nope, two different ones. And Shirou can no longer repeat the feat after Fate because the imprint is gone.

Quote:
Q: Archer's greatest defense is "Rho Aias", but if he were the same person as Shirou, shouldn't his greatest protection be "Avalon"? In the Rin route, Archer knew that the holy sword's sheath was inside Shirou, so wouldn't the Heroic Spirit form of the Shirou that "knew" that the sheath was merged with him be Archer?
A: Avalon’s power won't work if Saber's not connected to it. It's a different story during the Grail War, but all it does when Saber isn't around is make Shirou's magic attribute into "sword". Also, after the Grail War is taken apart, the line between him and her will be gone, so it's best to think that his image of "Avalon" also disappeared.
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