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Old 2012-05-06, 22:33   Link #241
Solace
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I think the point here is that Urobochi is basically saying "anything is possible". This not only gives him a valid setting to build any story he could dream up, it also offers fans as much optimism or negativity as they want. He may stick to one particular route as the story he wants to tell, but because it is a universe of infinite possibilities you could theoretically make any story you wanted to.

So some stories might be "Gretchen killed the universe, the end" or some stories might be "Homura nuked Kyubey's home planet, the end" or "Sayaka and Kyouko have hot lesbian sex, woot".

And none of them would really be wrong. He gets the creative freedom to tell the story he wants, and opens up the floor to people who want to write their own Madoka universe stories (like Shinbo's FMP/slice of life idea). It's an exciting thought, in my opinion, because it offers the potential for the franchise to stay fresh since it won't be trapped in a strict narrative.
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Old 2012-05-06, 23:26   Link #242
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I think the point here is that Urobochi is basically saying "anything is possible".
Not anything. He has made it clear some things are just not possible (Sayaka getting Kamijou, for instance).

But yeah, this setting gives him quite a bit of creative freedom to play around with different possible plot developments, as shown in the game.
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Old 2012-05-07, 09:47   Link #243
maximilianjenus
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the character personalities and world mechanics also have to bbe respected, so crazy stuff like mami regrowing her head, madoka being useful or sayaka becoming homura's friend still can't happen
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Old 2012-05-07, 09:53   Link #244
Kimidori
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
sayaka becoming homura's friend still can't happen
it did happen in homura route
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Old 2012-05-07, 12:11   Link #245
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she was faking it, her real intention was to kill homura.
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Old 2012-05-07, 20:18   Link #246
Kimidori
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post
she was faking it, her real intention was to kill homura.
lol, sayaka no such intention in homura route. in homura route tea party ending, homura back to her glassed self and everyone become friend


btw, i just found a wonderful tsundere moment between homura and kyoko in the game:
Quote:
In Kyoko's route, when Kyoko comes to help Homura with her fight against Walpurgis Night (despite she was mad at Homura for killing Oktavia, she later felt guilt for breaking the promise to fight Walpurgis) after Kyoko tells Homura that she is not fighting for her sake and claims that she wants grief seeds from Walpurgis, Homura simply smiles at her and calls her an idiot as she thanks her.
Quote:
Kyoko: Don’t get the wrong idea. It’s not like I came to help you out. And I’m not interested in saving people either. It’s just that my Soul Gem got corrupted thanks to Sayaka. And I just need a huge ass grief seed, okay?!

Homura: *smiles* Idiot...

Kyoko: Takes one to know one!

Homura: Thank you

Kyoko: I’ve do nothing to be thankful for!

Homura: Are...we...friends?

Kyoko: Let’s set that aside for now! We’ll talk after we beat that thing down!
some more KyoHomu from the game:

Quote:
After that Homura later asks Kyoko if they are friends but Kyoko changes the topic. Later they are defeated by Walpurgis and Kyoko attempts to use her last attack, as she calls it, but a concerned Homura stops her from doing it so (probably believing that she would sacrifice herself) causing Kyoko to call her a creep.

For some strange reason in the True Ending, Homura calls Kyoko "Sakura-san" instead of her first name, like she did before.
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Old 2012-05-08, 08:50   Link #247
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Not anything. He has made it clear some things are just not possible (Sayaka getting Kamijou, for instance).
Then why give a bonus route where this in fact does happen?

Nothing that happens in this bonus route sounds downright unimaginable to me (like, say, Homura and Madoka becoming archenemies with each other), so if people want to think of the bonus route as a legit possible ending, then I don't see why anybody (including even Gen) should rain on that parade.

We can think of certain routes as less likely than others, and that's perfectly fine, but to argue that one of them is completely impossible seems silly to me. Why bother to have such a route exist in the first place if it's not even remotely possible?
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:34   Link #248
Kimidori
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Then why give a bonus route where this in fact does happen?

Nothing that happens in this bonus route sounds downright unimaginable to me (like, say, Homura and Madoka becoming archenemies with each other), so if people want to think of the bonus route as a legit possible ending, then I don't see why anybody (including even Gen) should rain on that parade.

We can think of certain routes as less likely than others, and that's perfectly fine, but to argue that one of them is completely impossible seems silly to me. Why bother to have such a route exist in the first place if it's not even remotely possible?
the developer said that it a joke route, made for lol.
Gen himself said that bonus route is canonly impossible

do you really think that these silly things can happen in madoka?

Quote:
>Bonus route is basically full of jokes, drama, and wtfness

>just, key things are.

>Homu slaps Madoka for calling her clumsy and stupid

>Sayaka and hitomi fight over kyousuke physically and verbally

>Idol mami-san

>super sweet homura-chun

>Ending. Everyone beats walpurgis

>OUR FIGHT HAS JUST BEGUN

>homura facepalms and reverses time.
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Old 2012-05-08, 09:47   Link #249
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
We can think of certain routes as less likely than others, and that's perfectly fine, but to argue that one of them is completely impossible seems silly to me. Why bother to have such a route exist in the first place if it's not even remotely possible?
Why are you asking this? We aren't arguing anything. The creators of the game said that bonus route isn't canon, so what can we do about that? I don't really mind Sayaka hooking up with Kamijo myself, but Gen says it's not possible so....

As to why bother including that route in the first place... I can only guess but I suppose it's some sort of omake. Having Sayaka getting Kamijo in that route (where it doesn't count) is a pretty mean-spirited "joke", but you know that Gen likes to torture Sayaka for some reason. Again, what can we do about that?
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Old 2012-05-08, 13:09   Link #250
bhl88
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Is there a route where Sayaka doesn't make the contract?
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Old 2012-05-08, 13:41   Link #251
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Is there a route where Sayaka doesn't make the contract?
Spoiler for Sayaka doesn't become a magical girl:


And while she doesn't end up with Kamijou in her, Homura's, and Kyoko's routes, we don't know about Mami's route or the aftermath of Madoka's.
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Old 2012-05-08, 16:16   Link #252
maximilianjenus
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Why are you asking this? We aren't arguing anything. The creators of the game said that bonus route isn't canon, so what can we do about that? I don't really mind Sayaka hooking up with Kamijo myself, but Gen says it's not possible so....

As to why bother including that route in the first place... I can only guess but I suppose it's some sort of omake. Having Sayaka getting Kamijo in that route (where it doesn't count) is a pretty mean-spirited "joke", but you know that Gen likes to torture Sayaka for some reason. Again, what can we do about that?
Maybe gen is like yabuki kentarou and sayaka is based on an ex-wife/girlfriend.
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Old 2012-05-15, 05:52   Link #253
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Quote:
sayaka becoming homura's friend still can't happen
Oriko Magica, anyone?

Quote:
Why bother to have such a route exist in the first place if it's not even remotely possible?
To troll the fans even more?
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Old 2012-05-15, 08:39   Link #254
maximilianjenus
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You can consider that route equivalent to:

Spoiler for fate stay night:
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Old 2012-05-17, 03:50   Link #255
Kirito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
As to why bother including that route in the first place... I can only guess but I suppose it's some sort of omake. Having Sayaka getting Kamijo in that route (where it doesn't count) is a pretty mean-spirited "joke", but you know that Gen likes to torture Sayaka for some reason. Again, what can we do about that?
Urobochi-sensei sure loves to make characters go through crappy and tragic moments just for the sheer kicks and giggles of it. Any piece of his work will ever end up being happy or get a gumdrops and rainbows celebration like ending.

I love the stuff he creates and I know he's trying to promote "realism" in his works, but as a Sayaka fan it still really tears me up inside. Like in the joke endings of the game it's like him saying "we'll give you Sayaka fans her moment of happiness right up the ass, but oh wait, we'll put in a pointless joke ending scenario hahaha!!!". It totally feels that way...at least to me.

Just throwing stuff out there, just saying.
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Old 2012-05-18, 14:22   Link #256
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^ can't help agreeing with you to an extent...
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Old 2012-05-18, 21:39   Link #257
Jimmy C
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Urobochi-sensei sure loves to make characters go through crappy and tragic moments just for the sheer kicks and giggles of it.
I'd like to point out that he doesn't do it for just kicks and giggles. It's usually to show how people who pursue one path in life, be it their ideals, dreams or joy, to the exclusion of everything else, wind up getting destroyed by their fanaticism. Either because it costs them everything they have, makes them utterly miserable or gets them killed.
Critics who say, "normal people aren't like that." miss the point. He's not writing about normal people. Normal people can back away from one path to add things from other paths and, as a result, achieve a balance in life where they are content if not extremely happy.
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Old 2012-05-19, 04:20   Link #258
Kirito
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I'd like to point out that he doesn't do it for just kicks and giggles. It's usually to show how people who pursue one path in life, be it their ideals, dreams or joy, to the exclusion of everything else, wind up getting destroyed by their fanaticism. Either because it costs them everything they have, makes them utterly miserable or gets them killed.
Critics who say, "normal people aren't like that." miss the point. He's not writing about normal people. Normal people can back away from one path to add things from other paths and, as a result, achieve a balance in life where they are content if not extremely happy.
I agree with that. Maybe I'm still overly pissed about Sayaka after watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica for about 12 times (I've kept count). It still really pains me.

I understand that the characters Urobochi-sensei is trying to convey when it comes to their goals and logic towards life and people in general, but keep in mind I'm speaking in a concept I've perceived in a way that suit how I'm feeling ie. anger, sadness, while at the same time fascinated.

Whether you understand or not it's up to you. I'm extremely loyal/in love with this series and it's just my opinion and everything, that's all.
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Old 2012-05-19, 09:03   Link #259
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Well I bought the game guide.....

Ultra detailed is an understatement
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Old 2012-05-26, 18:25   Link #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I'd like to point out that he doesn't do it for just kicks and giggles. It's usually to show how people who pursue one path in life, be it their ideals, dreams or joy, to the exclusion of everything else, wind up getting destroyed by their fanaticism.
I think that's a fair assessment of how Gen is handling a few key characters in Fate/Zero.

However, I don't think that it applies much to Sayaka.

Sayaka didn't strike me as an unbalanced character, or truly fanatical. She certainly didn't strike as an abnormal person (actually, I feel that Sayaka is probably the most normal person in the entire main cast, with the possible exception of Mami).


In all seriousness, I think there's probably two reasons why Gen is leery of giving Sayaka an entirely happy end.

1) I think that Sayaka's descent was Gen's key illustration or "character study" or "object lesson" as to why the Puella Magi system of Madoka Magica is so vile. Basically, what happens to Sayaka more clearly justifies the wish that Madoka ends up making. Sayaka's sad ending feeds nicely into Madoka making the wish she did to ensure that nobody else would have to end up like her friend Sayaka did.

2) Gen, as we all know, is a "darker themed" writer. Basically, he takes a more skeptical view to happiness and happy endings than probably most of us do. My sense is that the overall Madoka Magica ending was probably pushing it for Gen even as it was (i.e. I recall Gen comparing what he wrote to the ending of one of the PreCure endings, and Gen saying "Is my heart really that dirty?"; I think what Gen meant by that is actually "Is my heart so dirty that I now long for happy endings myself?"). Gen probably felt that to be true to his own view of the world, and to be true to his own creative vision, he had to have at least some stark sadness in the Madoka Magica ending. Some major character had to come out of it drenched in melancholy. That character ended up being Sayaka...

Gen perhaps feels that if he lets Sayaka have a total happy end in an official Madoka Magica-related property, that he might be "selling out" his creative vision entirely, just to make some fans happy. I can respect that, even if I don't necessarily like it.
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