AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-10, 14:21   Link #221
erneiz_hyde
Indifferent
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
Eh, being generic doesn't mean it's bad and one can't like it though. Generic simply means it's not being unique, and it's up to the preference of each individual that watched it.
__________________
erneiz_hyde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 14:44   Link #222
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Eh, being generic doesn't mean it's bad and one can't like it though. Generic simply means it's not being unique, and it's up to the preference of each individual that watched it.
Being generic is still not a positive trait though. Especially if it is supposed to be your favorite serie.
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 16:22   Link #223
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Your post actually says the same thing what i have said
Interesting... you and MisaoaFan agree with me but not each other, while RF rewrites my opinion but preappends it with a more generic conclusion
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 16:26   Link #224
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Interesting... you and MisaoaFan agree with me but not each other, while RF rewrites my opinion but preappends it with a more generic conclusion
I only agreed on the point that ecchi fanservice was just a trick to attract more readers/viewers. Your point of toning it somewhat down made the show just more accesable to a (slightly) wider audience.

I don't agree however on the fact that ecchi plays a prominently role for the plot.
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 16:36   Link #225
Dhomochevsky
temporary safeguard
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Make the show better so more people enjoy watching it... dirty tricks!

The argument, that if you start with a good show and then take this away and that away and then tone some things down too (everything that sticks out and makes it unique maybe?), you end up with a boring, generic show... well that's really both a no brainer and not proving much.

That won't lead us anywhere. If you can not argue that the show is bad with all pieces in place, then dissecting it until it becomes bad does not say much about the complete package.


A plot alone does not make a good story. A plot is at first just a chain of cause and effect (hopefully... if you disregard that you end up with deus ex machina, which is usually bad).

If you ask for a show, in which the ecchi part is important for the plot, then how can you not accept Qwaser? It is the obvious example.
If you take out the ecchi parts (i.e. the breastfeeding activated superpowers) the chain breaks.

You could substitute the limiter on those superpowers with other things, but that would be a different plot.

Also the way it is originally set up brings some unique and interesting features:
- there has to be a girl nearby to activate the powers
- therefore 'superheroes' come in pairs of 'superhero' and vulnerable girl, which is important for the plot
- the girls initially don't like being violated (obviously) which is also important for the plot (and adds to character depth by showing how certain Qwaser work around this, by force or persuasion?)
Any substitute would need to emulate all this and whatever I might have overseen.

So yes, in this case (and many, many others) the ecchi part is an integral part of the plot.

Last edited by Dhomochevsky; 2012-05-10 at 16:54.
Dhomochevsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:03   Link #226
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
That won't lead us anywhere. If you can not argue that the show is bad with all pieces in place, then dissecting it until it becomes bad does not say much about the complete package.
Exactly. The rest of the story elements aren't "inherently pure". The plot, the setting, the characters, the artstyle, the dialog... everything conspires to get the attention of the target audience. Nothing is any more or less inherently "cynical". The only case where I suppose this argument is easier to sustain is in cases where an anime makes significant changes to the balance of content of the original work to emphasize certain elements over others. But even then, they're applying the same sort of principles in making those decisions as were probably made in the original case: you consider the target audience, determine what factors may compel them to buy the product, and package the product accordingly. A decision to avoid or remove ecchi fanservice is not necessarily any less shrewd or calculated; they simply have to consider the market they're trying to reach and what they want to see.
__________________
[...]
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:20   Link #227
Dhomochevsky
temporary safeguard
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Germany
Age: 33
If one could show that a series is better if you take one part out of it and this part happens to be ecchi fanservice, then he'd have a point.

To be fair, I think that's what Hyl was going for initially, but then that should not have been worded as a question, because Misao's answer to that would obviously not match the theory.

Anyway, people already argued along this line earlier in the thread and none of their examples seemed very convincing to me.
Dhomochevsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:26   Link #228
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post

A plot alone does not make a good story. A plot is at first just a chain of cause and effect (hopefully... if you disregard that you end up with deus ex machina, which is usually bad).
Actually the plot either makes or breaks the story. Because a plot is like you have said a chain of cause and effect that tells the story. I agree that not everything that makes a good story comes just from the plot, but you cant tell a good story if your plot is horrible.
Not every deus ex machina's have to be bad , eventhough most people consider them lazy writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
If you ask for a show, in which the ecchi part is important for the plot, then how can you not accept Qwaser? It is the obvious example.
If you take out the ecchi parts (i.e. the breastfeeding activated superpowers) the chain breaks.
Ok, how do the bondage, almost SM scenes , bathing scenes, cleavages, panty shots, out of nowhere nudity etc. fit to the plot (yes, i have seen all of those elements in the qwaser manga)? The breastmilk was just the tip of the iceberg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
You could substitute the limiter on those superpowers with other things, but that would be a different plot.
But it would not have changed the overall story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Also the way it is originally set up brings some unique and interesting features:
- there has to be a girl nearby to activate the powers
- therefore 'superheroes' come in pairs of 'superhero' and vulnerable girl, which is important for the plot
- the girls initially don't like being violated (obviously) which is also important for the plot (and adds to character depth by showing how certain Qwaser work around this, by force or persuasion?)

Any substitute would need to emulate all this and whatever I might have overseen.

So yes, in this case (and many, many others) the ecchi part is an integral part of the plot.
A few points:
-Having women nearby is not a problem for this manga. Seeing that the villains only seem to target women and the main character is most of the time in company with a few of them.
-Also you don't need a woman in battle if the character has already replenished their soma before the battle. Also not every women in that serie was the weak vulnerable type. Like Therassa was sometimes usefull in battle besides as a soma repleneshment.
-Not every women has their soma taken from them voluntarily, which is especially true for the villains.
Every pointt hat you have made was just for breastmilk drinking, which was just one of the many ecchi elements of the manga.
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:33   Link #229
Dhomochevsky
temporary safeguard
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Not all H elements are needed for the plot. Some are just in there, to make it an overall better show.
But in the case of Qwaser some are needed (we got to this example, because that was what you were asking for btw... it's not because this is the only way ecchi would ever work).

So if you want to make Qwaser an H free show, that's not gonna work. If you have a show with H anyway, then why not use it where it improves the show?

Also plot is not the ultimate goal of a show. Entertainement is. Plot is (often) essential for an entertaining show, but not all parts of an entertaining show have to be essential for the plot. Important parts of a good show may have nothing to do with plot at all and may still break the show, if one would remove them.
Dhomochevsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:48   Link #230
hyl
sneaking like a cat
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Not all H elements are needed for the plot. Some are just in there, to make it an overall better show.
But in the case of Qwaser some are needed (we got to this example, because that was what you were asking for btw... it's not because this is the only way ecchi would ever work).
So if you want to make it an H free show, that's not gonna work. If you have a show with H anyway, then why not use it where it improves the show?
I don't think it's meant for making a better show, but like it was said from the start by C.A. :just a way to attract more viewers/audience. Do you really think that the mangaka of Seikon no Qwaser had all of the ecchi elements in mind for writing a good story? Let's not forget that he is also the writer of the Mai hime and otome , VITA Sexualis mangas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Also plot is not the ultimate goal of a show. Entertainement is. Plot is (often) essential for an entertaining show, but not all parts of an entertaining show have to be essential for the plot. Important parts of a good show may have nothing to do with plot at all and may still break the show, if one would remove them.
While i didn't mention entertainment before , i don't disagree that these scenes are entertainment for some people. But there's entertainment and there are things that are nearly visual distractions. Let's take Agent Aika (or the more recent HotD anime) and count how many blatant panty shots there are.

It's for me like eroge.
I can accept reading most eroge/VN, because the H-scenes are not the main focus of it. I read them for the story, characters, romance, drama, comedy etc.
Personally i can't stand most Nukige, in which the H-scenes are the main selling point of it.

Do i hate all kind of H-scenes, of course not. Otherwise i would be a big hypocrite for reading so many VN with ero-content.
What i do dislike are a huge ammount of pointless ecchi scenes that doesn't contribute to anything.

edit: because i am not making a new post for a new comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Agent Aika panty shots make for a good drinking game.
I am pretty sure you will die of alcohol poisoning before finishing it.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-05-10 at 18:05.
hyl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 17:56   Link #231
Dhomochevsky
temporary safeguard
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Germany
Age: 33
Agent Aika panty shots make for a good drinking game.

But I will not take the position to defend Agent Aika, because frankly that show is not so good.
Dhomochevsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-05-10, 19:06   Link #232
Malkuth
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London
Age: 33
Send a message via MSN to Malkuth Send a message via Skype™ to Malkuth
Another example of an anime that the plot is only about sex is Nazo no Kanojyo X. Qwaser and shounen as I already said are bad examples because what is the common (mis)understanding for a plot is very hard to be married with ecchi, while being able to make it into a public broadcast. I can only think of EVA managing that successfully, by turning the mecha (instead of the ecchi) element into fanservice

@hyl: I didn't except to agree 100% with me, neither does MisaoFan, but you along with RF started to converge point-wise I am not trying to persuade anyone here, just try to voice an opinion other than the common and vocal ones (it has tits it must suck or it is awesome) that most viewers accept as the only truth without giving it any thought.
Malkuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.