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Old 2012-05-11, 13:41   Link #28761
Jan-Poo
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Renall have you considered the fact that if it was Erika that came up with that idea she would have gained an unlimited and unrestricted use of seals?

Or rather the fact that by your Battler's logic Erika had the right to use her seals wherever she pleased and retroactively on top of that.
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Old 2012-05-11, 13:56   Link #28762
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Renall have you considered the fact that if it was Erika that came up with that idea she would have gained an unlimited and unrestricted use of seals?

Or rather the fact that by your Battler's logic Erika had the right to use her seals wherever she pleased and retroactively on top of that.
That more or less is what was the case, yes. Retroactivity is implied by Erika's actual use of the seals in the Logic Error context.

I presume you mean that, by simply choosing to carefully define some non-contiguous area as "location x," she could have sealed anything and everything that she wanted using only three seals. That's true, if she were aware of it. The whole point Battler is making there is that it's her responsibility to ask for specifics, since she was the one who threw out implication and narrative fidelity in favor of extreme specifics. So yes, Erika could have defined any room she wanted as "Battler's guestroom," but she didn't, because she never asked to be sure that when they talked about a specific room by name, they actually meant the room the narrative described. Hey, she had every opportunity to ask him to clarify!

It's silly, because it's a joke, so I wouldn't look too much harder into it. It is "fair," at least inasmuch as Erika was being "fair."
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2012-05-11, 14:08   Link #28763
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
she could have sealed anything and everything that she wanted using only three seals.
As I suspected you forgot the terms of the agreement, it's much worse than that!

Think about it, Erika didn't use just three seals, we have at least 6 confirmed seals. two on the guestroom's doors, two on their respective windows, one on Battler's room's door and one on the broken chainlock. Plus there was probably one on that window's room too. So it's at least 6-7 seals.

So what's the actual deal? Erika was given the choice of three rooms that she could seal however she wanted and with as many seals she wished for!

Now you get the picture? ^_-
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Old 2012-05-11, 14:29   Link #28764
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As I suspected you forgot the terms of the agreement, it's much worse than that!

Think about it, Erika didn't use just three seals, we have at least 6 confirmed seals. two on the guestroom's doors, two on their respective windows, one on Battler's room's door and one on the broken chainlock. Plus there was probably one on that window's room too. So it's at least 6-7 seals.

So what's the actual deal? Erika was given the choice of three rooms that she could seal however she wanted and with as many seals she wished for!

Now you get the picture? ^_-
"Seal" refers to the act of sealing, I understand exactly what you mean.

And I agree, she could have done that. Why didn't she? She didn't ask.

Same reason she could declare all those people dead. Battler didn't ask her to state every action she'd taken from start of story to finish. He could have! He didn't. I'm just turning the logic back against Erika. She didn't ask what a "room" means, so it's her fault she couldn't seal absolutely anything and everything using only the quantity Battler provided. In fact, were she clever enough, she could probably seal every entry or exit point to every location ever to exist using just one "seal," with a proper definition of a single "room."

Totally fair based on the rules Bern and Erika were playing by. Her fault for not exploiting Battler's excessive generosity.
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Old 2012-05-11, 14:47   Link #28765
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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
why was he reluctant about being specific about that "truth" he always talked about and never said "that readers reached the truth of Shkanon / Yasu" blah?
But as always, this is subjective.

However, I guess as long as there's no red text from Ryukishi himself, I can go on merrily preferring other possible cat box solutions . ^_^
Well, I can also keep finding Shkanon blatantly stupid even if it was true, so.. >_>
I wouldn't say that it was stupid though. If you go back you can see that Shkanon clues are all over the place. As for that first part about Ryu not being specific, it seems like he was never being specific. Why would he use an image of yet another "witch of Rokkenjima" instead of Beatrice or Shannon? Apparently he was expecting the people who hadn't caught on to Shkanon to still be confused after reading EP7. And yes, going along preferring other cat box solutions seems to be the point of the game. Look at Ange's gold truth at the end of Twilight compared the Bern's red.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1
If the Rokkenjima tragedy hadn't happened people who were to find the bottles might have wondered about them, maybe someone could have even reported them to the police or the Ushiromiya in fear someone WAS planning a murder but the things would end here.
Well, this doesn't deny the possibility that the bottles were written after the Rokkenjima incident occurred. In fact Legend's aftermath says that the bottle was found after the police investigation... many years later. "The witch was fickle and she made a point of making this story be heard..."
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Old 2012-05-11, 14:49   Link #28766
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However given your fanfic Battler was aware of that loophole and didn't try to block it.
Meaning he was banking on the fact Erika would never see it (if she did, he'd be pretty much screwed).

What would he have done if Erika actually used that definition of room? Would he have been a good sport and accept utter defeat or would have he declared that such definition wasn't acceptable?
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Old 2012-05-11, 15:01   Link #28767
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However given your fanfic Battler was aware of that loophole and didn't try to block it.
Meaning he was banking on the fact Erika would never see it (if she did, he'd be pretty much screwed).

What would he have done if Erika actually used that definition of room? Would he have been a good sport and accept utter defeat or would have he declared that such definition wasn't acceptable?
He states he thought it up at the last second, so it's more of a "given the parameters established at the time of the Logic Error being declared, an appropriate solution would have been x." This is essentially how Beatrice plays it with the intended solution, relying on the fact that the parameters established permit someone in the next room over potentially breaking the seal and leaving that room, thus making it possible for one of them to be the rescuer. She uses Kanon because his position is supposedly inescapable, but only because Erika is unaware of Shkanon and thus does not realize that "Kanon" is in fact in the next room over.

Had she been aware of the trickery in play, she would not have lost in either the actual case of ep6 or the theory I had Battler propose. It is possible to imagine a scenario in which an absolutely inescapable Logic Error is created, but were that actually done there'd be no dramatic resolution when someone is able to escape from it.

If Erika had actually suggested this before the Logic Error, he probably would've shot her down and forbidden it. There's no reason she would have done so, however, given that she was trying to get him to be more specific, not less. Thus any failure of specificity is squarely on Erika. Now, had she been specific enough, she could have easily won in any event.
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Old 2012-05-11, 16:49   Link #28768
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Yeah your reasoning follows but this

Quote:
If Erika had actually suggested this before the Logic Error, he probably would've shot her down and forbidden it
Means that Battler proposed a solution that he wouldn't have accepted if it was used against him, and that makes him an asshole.

But I suppose you're fine with that!
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Old 2012-05-11, 18:09   Link #28769
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The red truth of the sealing in Episode 6 doesn't make sense.

In Episode 1, Eva placed a seal, and in Episode 5, Eva and Erika placed seals at various times. Later, they observed their seals to be unbroken when they opened the door / window. From this, they were able to conclude that the door / windows were not used between the times when they were sealed to when the seal was broken. This is valid.

But in Episode 6, Erika never observes the seals again. For all she knows, somebody could have broken the seal after she left the guesthouse and beaten her to Battler's room. She can't conclude in red that the doors / windows weren't used.
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Old 2012-05-11, 19:53   Link #28770
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Yeah your reasoning follows but this

Means that Battler proposed a solution that he wouldn't have accepted if it was used against him, and that makes him an asshole.

But I suppose you're fine with that!
Well, yeah! It's a "you screw me, I screw you" situation. But honestly, there's no way out of Erika's trap that isn't at least somewhat dishonest, because she intentionally set up a situation that mischaracterizes the truth. Beatrice just nails her on it in ep6 because there was an even cheesier trick in play that Erika didn't count on.
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
The red truth of the sealing in Episode 6 doesn't make sense.

In Episode 1, Eva placed a seal, and in Episode 5, Eva and Erika placed seals at various times. Later, they observed their seals to be unbroken when they opened the door / window. From this, they were able to conclude that the door / windows were not used between the times when they were sealed to when the seal was broken. This is valid.

But in Episode 6, Erika never observes the seals again. For all she knows, somebody could have broken the seal after she left the guesthouse and beaten her to Battler's room. She can't conclude in red that the doors / windows weren't used.
That's why the seals have to be implicit, fiat seals and not a physical thing. Battler is saying "you can pick any three rooms and I will assure you no one has gone in or out of them without telling you first." It's backed by his assurances as Game Master and by Dlanor's "because I say so" power. Erika doesn't have to go back and check. In fact, it's not possible for her to do so, just as you said. Battler doesn't care. He says she can do it, so she can.
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Old 2012-05-11, 20:21   Link #28771
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What are you talking about? I think personality death is ridiculous.
Yeah I know, but do you find it more ridiculous or less ridiculous than the non-ShKanon theory with Kanon escaping before Erika completes her sealing of the cousins' room?
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Old 2012-05-11, 20:25   Link #28772
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Actually we know that one of the seals was broken. Why else Dlanor wouldn't simply deny that instead of sealing Gaap's blue truth?

The seal of the window of "the next room over" had to have been broken, else Dlanor's actions wouldn't make sense. But this means that anyone in that room could have gone and helped Battler, just as Gaap proposed.

The shkanon gimmick in the end was necessary not so much as to find a solution to save Battler, giving the setting, but rather as a way to bypass Dlanor's veto on the blue truth about the seal of the window. Blue truth that however Battler wouldn't need since he was the Game Master and could use the red truth directly.


This however doesn't make much sense to me for other reasons.

First off, how could the seal be broken if Battler didn't actively made one of his pieces do that? It's already difficult to accept hat Erika as a player could do something behind Battler's back, but even pieces? That's too ridiculous. This of course leads straight to genious Battler, but how in the world Dlanor didn't find strange that Battler wouldn't use one of the persons inside the neighboring room even though the window seal was broken? And it appears that Erika was aware of that too.

Second, if the seals could be broken, and if Battler didn't mind doing so... then why he didn't simply do that? He could have broken not only the seals of the neighboring room but even the one in the cousin's room. If there was no rule to prevent that, then hell! He's never really been in a pinch at all. Again genious Battler, but goddamn stupid Erika. Either that, or totally clueless Battler.

Third, Beatrice's grand strategy wouldn't have worked at all if the seal of the window of the room where Shannon was trapped hadn't been already broken. Which means someone else paved the way for her and yet she didn't wonder how come Battler didn't notice that and didn't use that to his advantage.

In the end the whole shkanon gimmick still required that one of the seals was broken. i.e. the shkanon gimmick wasn't needed at all if Battler used directly that.

So in the end Renall... there was an even easier and pretty stupid solution for Battler to save himself if he wanted.
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Old 2012-05-11, 20:31   Link #28773
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But using Kanon made it possible to show another bit of "magic", by "warping" Kanon out of the cousins' room. Also "Kanon does not exist in the guestroom" is impossible for anyone else.
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Old 2012-05-11, 20:43   Link #28774
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But using Kanon made it possible to show another bit of "magic", by "warping" Kanon out of the cousins' room.
But the point here is that for Battler that wasn't necessary, and that Erika and Dlanor should have been aware of that. So it was impossible for Battler to be in a real pinch and it was impossible for Erika and Dlanor to seriously think that they had cornered him.

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Also "Kanon does not exist in the guestroom" is impossible for anyone else.
I don't know what do you mean exactly but the red truths that come from Beatrice do not matter here, because they didn't exist before Battler was trapped in the logic error.
Denying this would make it even more ridiculous, because that would mean that the shkannon gimmick had already happened and was present in the gameboard without Battler noticing it.
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Old 2012-05-11, 20:49   Link #28775
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Originally Posted by "Jan-Poo"
First off, how could the seal be broken if Battler didn't actively made one of his pieces do that?It's already difficult to accept hat Erika as a player could do something behind Battler's back, but even pieces?
EP6's meta is confusing enough. I think he did and the Logic Error was a part of the game BATTLER made.

Quote:
nd, if the seals could be broken, and if Battler didn't mind doing so... then why he didn't simply do that? He could have broken not only the seals of the neighboring room but even the one in the cousin's room. If there was no rule to prevent that, then hell! He's never really been in a pinch at all. Again genious Battler, but goddamn stupid Erika. Either that, or totally clueless Battler.
Wasn't that the point though? Look, these seals aren't broken but strange things are happening. The thing though is that Erika and Dlanor played so that Battler never had the chance to admit that the seal was broken, and then they kept people (Gaap) from using that move.

Quote:
Third, Beatrice's grand strategy wouldn't have worked at all if the seal of the window of the room where Shannon was trapped hadn't been already broken. Which means someone else paved the way for her and yet she didn't wonder how come Battler didn't notice that and didn't use that to his advantage.
*Already* broken? I thought that's what the whole thing with the shower was... to buy time for Shannon to break the seal and rescue Battler.

Quote:
I don't know what do you mean exactly but the red truths that come from Beatrice do not matter here, because they didn't exist before Battler was trapped in the logic error.
Denying this would make it even more ridiculous, because that would mean that the shkannon gimmick had already happened and was present in the gameboard without Battler noticing it.
I think Renall pointed it out in his dialogue: "Were you really in a Logic Error?"

Even Ange and Featherine point it out: "The story still continues..."

I'm pretty sure the reason BATTLER was locked into a Logic Error was because *that* BATTLER was a game piece.
1) Gamemaster Battler made sure there were no Logic Errors
2) Red cannot be said if it isn't true. Therefore if it's impossible for the events to happen and the seals *not* be broken, then it is impossible to say it in red.
3) The Meta of EP6 is layered pretty high, and loops around at itself. I know I'm just handwaving your question but: "Don't think about it, you'll just get a headache"
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Old 2012-05-11, 21:08   Link #28776
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*Already* broken? I thought that's what the whole thing with the shower was... to buy time for Shannon to break the seal and rescue Battler.
No, the point was to distract Erika from the main room so Battler could get out from his hiding place and be replaced by someone else. None of that would have been possible if Erika wasn't occupied in the bathroom.

And it was pointless to distract Erika for the seals since Erika could not check the seals anyway, Dlanor could. And Dlanor had to have the power to know at any given time the situation of the seals to be able to pronounce red truths about their status.

Since Dlanor refused to give a red truth about the seal on the window on the next room over, while she had no problem doing so for the cousin's room, then that means she already knew the seal was broken. And that happened before Beatrice challenged Erika.


Quote:
"Don't think about it, you'll just get a headache"
Unless you mean I cannot understand it, that's the same as to say there's no discernible logic no matter how you try.
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Old 2012-05-11, 21:28   Link #28777
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No, the point was to distract Erika from the main room so Battler could get out from his hiding place and be replaced by someone else.
That's pretty much what I meant. The point was to buy time for Shannon or (anyone else) to escape from the "sealed room" and replace Battler. It doesn't follow that the seals were broken before Shannon's escape.

Dlanor played dirty by putting the seal on... the seals, which is why Beatrice had to get Erika to remove it, because it was the only thing that was holding them back against Beato.

Quote:
Unless you mean I cannot understand it, that's the same as to say there's no discernible logic no matter how you try.
I apologize. Even my logic has holes. But look at *all* the meta parts in EP6. It might seem that it would be impossible for Battler to have ended up in the logic error in the first place. But it's not when you consider the fact that the game was a farce behind the truth of BATTLER's EP6... which takes place somewhere between Tohya writing it from Prime and Ange being a Reader to Hachijou/Featherine.
Wasn't it your EP8's parody of Ange reading to Ikuko the story of Ange reading to Ikuko? I was dying of laughter because of your execution, but I seriously think that it's real similar to what's actually going on. I say that with a straight face.
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Old 2012-05-11, 22:04   Link #28778
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You know ... I may have said it before, but I'm of the opinion that both End and Dawn represent "works in progress", that haven't been finished yet. And Erika, a piece born of the established fandom's wish for Piece!Battler to not be incompetent, represents either the writer struggling, or a helping figure "suggesting" the sorts of actions an aggressive detective like that would take, just to make the writing process more difficult.

Okay, I mean yeah, BATTLER was presented as having completely baked the proverbial cake, and the EP opens with him putting the icing and cherries on a perfectly woven tale, but ... well, Featherine's still working on it, right?

Also, my own problem with Shkanon isn't so much that it EXISTS, but that he tried to hinge almost EVERY mystery on it. Could have explored several other directions to mix things up, especially with 18 characters to play around with.
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Old 2012-05-11, 22:27   Link #28779
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"Kanon does not exist in the guestroom" is impossible for anyone else.
Nope. Anyone could do that one.

Hideyoshi entered the guest room
Hideyoshi did not leave the guest room
Hideyoshi does not exist in the guest room
Hideyoshi is dead.
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Old 2012-05-11, 23:45   Link #28780
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But the point here is that for Battler that wasn't necessary, and that Erika and Dlanor should have been aware of that. So it was impossible for Battler to be in a real pinch and it was impossible for Erika and Dlanor to seriously think that they had cornered him.
There are two separate points at work here:
  • That a solution immediately existed to the present problem so there could never actually be a Logic Error.
Even if Battler was adamant about not having himself be hiding anywhere in the room, he can simply break a seal. And the real solution was that someone in the next room over broke a seal, so...
  • That a solution "maintain the mystery."
There was some implication in the narration that Erika could "win" in some fashion if she could catch Battler or the others in the act of fakery. I'm not sure why exactly, but that seemed to be the idea. Thus, Battler just having someone break a seal and come rescue him would force him to acknowledge that his situation did require human trickery and thus he had "lost."

Except... that was Beatrice's solution! Her solution was just "yeah someone in one of the two sealed rooms broke a seal and left to get Battler." The Kanon thing was just sleight of hand to flummox Erika. The actual solution was, even in its presentation, as mundane as possible. This runs entirely counter to Battler's stubbornness to not do that.

So really, the only thing you can possibly conclude is that Genius Battler is true, at least inasmuch as Battler only entered the Logic Error because he wanted to. A multitude of mundane solutions were available to him to salvage the situation (ep6 even says this), so there's no way he can be "trapped" in a Logic Error unless he refuses to take a particular line of reasoning. Which is fine if he's standing on principles to preserve the fantasy... but Beatrice's solution doesn't actually preserve the fantasy outside the Kanon trick, which is unrelated to the actual Logic Error solution itself.

So what the hell was the point?
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