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Old 2012-05-10, 23:03   Link #501
DragoonKain3
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And I think he's doing a great job of it. As someone who has read only 1 chapter out of curiosity recently, I have no feelings at all that he's missing something in the transition.
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Old 2012-05-10, 23:20   Link #502
gianna
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yeah what has been left out just adds even more to what exists between the characters -- so as the series has already established those certain things I think the heart of it is still getting through


does that make sense
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Old 2012-05-11, 02:23   Link #503
Kaoru Chujo
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Another toweringly great episode. Like an iceberg, with so much more under the surface than above it.

I understand the feeling that the meeting with mother was "weightless and pointless," but I think the point was not really Kaoru and his mother. It was the complex of feelings that the adventure laid over his feelings with Riichan. It was not there for itself so much as for the way it resonated against Kaoru and Riichan's feelings. Not just literally, with the idea of a woman leaving a man, but the pain of regrets, the way Kaoru could see that his mother's situation was so much more painful than his, and the way his feelings with her kind of cleaned his mind so he could face Riichan. His ability to sympathize with his mother (as with Sen's sister in her problem) allowed him to sympathize with Riichan and also to deal with her. And so on.
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Old 2012-05-11, 02:26   Link #504
kuromitsu
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Reposting a comment I made somewhere else (with some edits): It's not more emotion I was asking for - actually, in the manga it happens in the same, restrained way, when I said "soap opera" I meant the backstory and not the actual reunion. It's just that I expected them to do *something* with Kaoru's mother. This way it was like a meeting of mother and son who haven't seen each other in a few years at most, and not like a child who has grown up with the knowledge that his mother abandoned him meeting his mother for the first time in more than 10 years. Not to mention how unbelievable it is that Kaoru wouldn't even ask the very obvious questions (why did you leave me, why didn't you at least write, etc).

Reconnecting with an estranged family member (mother) is a heavy issue - but here they dropped the heavy part and used the situation to make Kaoru feel better, with an almost mechanical execution. (Mother - check, Beatles fanboy - coming up.) Why use such a character and such a situation if you're not going to do anything with them? It would've been better if they cut the whole episode with the mother and used the time to expand on some stuff, or lay the groundwork for some future events. Or they could've just added some anime original stuff. Or something.

The anime is still very good, but the rush is starting to become very obvious, which is a pity. This is the second time when I felt that a heavy scene was made too light by the writing cutting too much. And while the mother episode is fairly irrelevant in the long run, this kind of predicts heavy and important stuff getting either dropped or rushed through in the future. :/
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Old 2012-05-11, 02:38   Link #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Reposting a comment I made somewhere else (with some edits): It's not more emotion I was asking for - actually, in the manga it happens in the same, restrained way, when I said "soap opera" I meant the backstory and not the actual reunion. It's just that I expected them to do *something* with Kaoru's mother. This way it was like a meeting of mother and son who haven't seen each other in a few years at most, and not like a child who has grown up with the knowledge that his mother abandoned him meeting his mother for the first time in more than 10 years. Not to mention how unbelievable it is that Kaoru wouldn't even ask the very obvious questions (why did you leave me, why didn't you at least write, etc).
Gee, where might that have been?

I didn't find the interaction mechanical - rather, believably cautious and guarded. These are two people who've both been heavily damaged by this woman's act, and neither wants to confront it head-on in their first awkward meeting in ten years.

That question you want Kaoru to ask is a hard question to bring yourself to say. Murakami wrote a whole novel basically about that question, and the MC can't actually bring himself to ask it for about 500 pages.
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Old 2012-05-11, 03:30   Link #506
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Spoiler for about this episode...:
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Old 2012-05-11, 03:53   Link #507
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Ep 5
I actually teared up when Ri'ko was apologizing (a.k.a. friendzoning) Kaoru. And then again with the train scene... Poor mom. The promise to meet again allows us to hope for more information about the sitiuation.

Best scene? Them getting drunk. "Friendship is for life". I really hope that Karou appreciates Sentarou more and repays his kindness.

Because I'm sure I'll be seeing that in yaoi douginshis MWAHAHA. <3
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Old 2012-05-11, 04:56   Link #508
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Gee, where might that have been?
Heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
I didn't find the interaction mechanical - rather, believably cautious and guarded.
I didn't mean the interaction was mechanical, more like the writing - it's like they included this episode because it was in the manga so they had to include it, even though they didn't plan to do anything with it. My problem is not that they weren't 100% faithful to the manga, it's that they didn't even try to touch on an issue that should've been very important here - the mother and the reunion was simply a plot device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
These are two people who've both been heavily damaged by this woman's act, and neither wants to confront it head-on in their first awkward meeting in ten years. ... That question you want Kaoru to ask is a hard question to bring yourself to say. Murakami wrote a whole novel basically about that question, and the MC can't actually bring himself to ask it for about 500 pages.
Thing is, Kaoru does ask her (in the manga) and he receives a pretty thorough answer that makes the audience understand her and her situation much more. I'm sure it was omitted because of time constraints, but this way it's not only unbelievable for someone in Kaoru's situation, but it's also a bit unfair to the mother (Sayoko, I think?). I think the anime audience will walk away from this episode having a very different impression of her and the whole family issue than what is presented in the manga. For one it makes people think she was the guilty party (as you also imply) when in reality the situation was more complicated; and not mentioning certain things that explain why she's working in such a place leave rather iffy implications about her nature which are simply not true. :/ (At least the impression I got here is that she's a "loose woman" who couldn't handle the responsibility and walked out on her family.)

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-05-11 at 05:33.
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Old 2012-05-11, 05:09   Link #509
fertygo
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So manga reader saying they cutting material to the death?
My goodness, Watanabe is unbelievably great then... I'm not realizing it at all, everything flowing smoothly and Kaoru got so many development from all of this.

Some astute directing that we seeing here
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Old 2012-05-11, 05:16   Link #510
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
So manga reader saying they cutting material to the death?
My goodness, Watanabe is unbelievably great then... I'm not realizing it at all, everything flowing smoothly and Kaoru got so many development from all of this.

Some astute directing that we seeing here
Yeah, he and the writing staff are doing a fantastic job most of the time - which makes glitches like this stand out more (to me, anyway). It's really a pity they don't have more episodes... With 24-26 episodes this show could've been even better.
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Old 2012-05-11, 07:23   Link #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Thing is, Kaoru does ask her (in the manga) and he receives a pretty thorough answer that makes the audience understand her and her situation much more. I'm sure it was omitted because of time constraints, but this way it's not only unbelievable for someone in Kaoru's situation, but it's also a bit unfair to the mother (Sayoko, I think?). I think the anime audience will walk away from this episode having a very different impression of her and the whole family issue than what is presented in the manga. For one it makes people think she was the guilty party (as you also imply) when in reality the situation was more complicated; and not mentioning certain things that explain why she's working in such a place leave rather iffy implications about her nature which are simply not true. :/ (At least the impression I got here is that she's a "loose woman" who couldn't handle the responsibility and walked out on her family.)
Don't know, as I wrote, the impression I got there was that no one was guilty for the separation, (no one means both equally). Yes, in a way it seemed a bit like they wanted to clear his issues with his mother and with Ritsuko with one stone.
But the overall feeling I got and keep getting from the show is that writers are trying to depict Kaoru like a bit of a selfish person. Ingenuously. I mean he seems to never put his issues into the right context. He could see her mother, but didn't think a bit of Sen situation. He pushed himself into Ritsuko not thinking of her feelings at all. Even that little hint Sen's sister gave him about the cram school didn't turn on any light about how lucky he is in comparison of Sentarou. In term of stability. In term of future possibilities. So in this case the episode conveyed to me that his family situation is bad, but not so bad after all. The focus was not on why the mother left, but on the fact that even if she left, regardless the reasons, she cared for him, she was happy to see him. At the same time they showed us that his father cared for him too. But surely I'm not focusing on details, the work of the mother related on that years, etc.
I don't know if I'm right, but it seems thath they are indirectly developing Sen character in a subtle/implied way using Kaoru issues. So probably that is one of the criteria they are using to choose which part of the manga to keep.
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Old 2012-05-11, 07:40   Link #512
sa547
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I was thinking about how and why Kaoru was having a hard time trying to convey his feelings and all.

Part of me thought it could be attributed to his affluent living environment prior to moving from Yokosuka to Sasebo, that is, a restricted, patrician life and every activity, detail and movement is painstakingly paid attention to. So it's hard being rich and yet so tied up, he reminds me of Sachiko (yes, the lady who presently occupies my avatar), trying to learn what it takes to be an individual and to get along with others outside the comfort zone.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:17   Link #513
gianna
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Originally Posted by fertygo View Post
So manga reader saying they cutting material to the death?
My goodness, Watanabe is unbelievably great then... I'm not realizing it at all, everything flowing smoothly and Kaoru got so many development from all of this.

Some astute directing that we seeing here
I dont think so (fortunately)
It's mostly a quickened pace here and there
Repeating myself here but Arya's post shows very well that despite what's left out the viewer can still pick up on the emotion of the scene and learn enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Yeah, he and the writing staff are doing a fantastic job most of the time - which makes glitches like this stand out more (to me, anyway). It's really a pity they don't have more episodes... With 24-26 episodes this show could've been even better.
I think with that many episodes you'd have a whole lot of Kaoru's dramatic narration like in HaC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arya;
I don't know if I'm right, but it seems thath they are indirectly developing Sen character in a subtle/implied way using Kaoru issues. So probably that is one of the criteria they are using to choose which part of the manga to keep.
That's right
I think a big part of this series is character discovery (well theme implies that huh)
We often get to see what kind of guy Sen is through his interactions with Kaoru (the good and the bad)
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Old 2012-05-11, 19:08   Link #514
SeijiSensei
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I think this is one of the situations where having read the manga is probably a detriment to enjoying the anime on its own terms. I'm glad I'm not burdened with that.

To me the most important part of Kaoru's encounter with his mother was that it made him see how much more complicated adult life really is. In just a couple of moments he came to understand that one could recover from having a broken heart and even laugh about it. I think he also could see how his own adolescent emotional struggles paled in comparison to the mature heartbreak that his parents had experienced. Like Arya, I didn't judge Kaoru's mother to be the "guilty party." Both his parents clearly expressed their sadness over the failure of their marriage whatever the reasons. I also don't think it matters much why they split up. From the point of view of the anime story, that's all in the past and not really relevant to where Kaoru is today.

I, too, have a view of Kaoru as, if not selfish, then most certainly self-centered. That's not uncommon in adolescence, of course, but he seems decidedly so. The stolen kiss is just the most obvious example. His annoyance that Sentarou decided to tag along on the trip to Tokyo is another. Kaoru is such a rigid personality that he simply cannot seem to accept that Sentarou cares about him, so much so that he spends what little money he has to accompany his friend on a trip that he, correctly, realizes might be emotionally difficult for Kaoru.

I thought it was especially poignant when Sen's sister tells Kaoru that she's playing by herself because her friends were all at cram school. That one sentence tells us so much about her and Sen's family situation and their obviously limited prospects for the future. One of the things that most impresses me about this show is the economy with which it is presented. A line here, a glance there, and paragraphs of exposition are expressed. I could do with a bit fewer blushing marks though. Sometimes it feels a bit heavy-handed as in the whole sequence in the shop.

i was left wondering who was taking care of Sentarou's younger siblings while he and his sister were at the music shop.
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Old 2012-05-11, 19:55   Link #515
kuromitsu
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I think this is one of the situations where having read the manga is probably a detriment to enjoying the anime on its own terms. I'm glad I'm not burdened with that.
Again: I'm not complaining because the anime is not following the manga with a 100% precision. I've said as much earlier. This is something that would've bothered me even if I hadn't read the manga. Because yes, I understand what they were trying to get at, and that's fine, but on the other hand they introduce a character and a situation that raise certain questions that end up not even being asked, let alone answered. If they weren't planning to do anything more with this character and this situation they could've just rewritten it, or even omitted the whole thing, but as it is it's just... there. Over and done in five minutes,)which by the way also affects the credibility of the effect this "adventure" has on Kaoru since he barely even interacts with her), without touching on the deeper issues.

They introduce a mother who is known to have left her husband and her small child, hasn't contacted her family ever after, and who is now working at a hostess club (that may or may not be a glorified brothel). This woman is now meeting her son for the first time in 10+ years. You don't bring in a character and a situation like that in a story and then not address these details whatsoever, and then shoo her out of the story for good after a very short time. Either tone down these details or address them in one way or another (and IMO "strange, I never thought to ask her about it" is not a very good way to do that).

Apparently it's just me, but this bothered me and I think the way the anime writing staff handled it wasn't very elegant.
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Old 2012-05-11, 19:59   Link #516
sa547
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Quote:
i was left wondering who was taking care of Sentarou's younger siblings while he and his sister were at the music shop.
Oh, I remember that Sentaro's siblings do have a surrogate mother who takes care of them.

Quote:
I think this is one of the situations where having read the manga is probably a detriment to enjoying the anime on its own terms. I'm glad I'm not burdened with that.
You're not alone, as I don't have much time to read the original manga versions of the shows on air in this season, which turns out to be a boon for me.
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Old 2012-05-11, 21:13   Link #517
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This series seems to be very hyped up. Not sure if I want to watch it though, from what screenshots I saw there seems to be a lot of gay subtext in here.

How much focus is there on the bromance?
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Old 2012-05-11, 23:12   Link #518
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myname View Post
This series seems to be very hyped up. Not sure if I want to watch it though, from what screenshots I saw there seems to be a lot of gay subtext in here.

How much focus is there on the bromance?
Absolutely none.
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Old 2012-05-12, 00:07   Link #519
Lilith
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Originally Posted by sa547 View Post
Oh, I remember that Sentaro's siblings do have a surrogate mother who takes care of them.
I thought Sentarou was adopted into this family? His mom left, his grandma passed away and his father worked away.

Can someone clarify this to me.
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Old 2012-05-12, 00:16   Link #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myname View Post
This series seems to be very hyped up. Not sure if I want to watch it though, from what screenshots I saw there seems to be a lot of gay subtext in here.

How much focus is there on the bromance?
Tons. Run away. Far, far away.
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