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Old 2012-05-12, 00:55   Link #28781
GuestSpeaker
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overall was a lame plot device and there could have been other ways.
I'd genuinely enjoy hearing some

In regards to the seals being broken pre-logic error:

I thought a posible point was that as game master Battler was able to change the story as long as it wouldn't be noticed, however he was unable to think of a way to escape the logic error which would also fool Erika. He could have just had someone break the seals (they DIDN'T do it without him noticing, he just hadn't decided they had done it) but Erika would have guessed it in about 5 seconds. What Beatrice did was go, ok so someone DID escape, but do it in a way Erika could not solve. Sure, she didn't make the solution to the logic error a trick, but Erika was still caught out being unable to give a full solution, so lost. If Battler provides a thousand plausible answers but Erika solves each part of them, he still loses.

It's the same way that her saying "you can change your moves since I just placed the seal" is a dirty trick, because by changing any move he shows what his plan would have needed to involve previously.

This might mean the whole thing with Dlanor was basically a "sure, that could have happened GAAP, but since you aren't the gamemaster you can't go saying it did"
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Old 2012-05-12, 02:35   Link #28782
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Renall, the reason Erika would "win" if she caught team Witch in an act of fakery is that those are the rules of the game - if Battler can't fool Erika at least once, the witch side loses and that's it for Battler and Beatrice. If Battler doesn't preserve the mystery then Battler himself, Beatrice and the whole gameboard just get destroyed. Team Mystery needs to win once and then that's it for the witch.

The reason Erika "lost"(in my opinion she should have won) is Shkanontrice rearing its' ugly head again. To use the words of the translation, Erika didn't have love - which made her completely unable to see what Beatrice's answer was("No, it's a splendid trick! People without love cannot see that ...!"). Erika has no idea about any of the shkanontrice nonsense, and if shkanontrice wasn't true then she would have won the duel.

Shkanontrice is essential to Beatrice's solution actually working at all, because otherwise Kanon ends up in the room and what happened is obvious and Mystery wins. Beatrice's solution was most likely something along the lines of "Kanon rescues battler, resets the chain, hides in the closet and then "dies", leaving behind Shannon/Beatrice."
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Old 2012-05-12, 04:05   Link #28783
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Nope. Anyone could do that one.

Hideyoshi entered the guest room
Hideyoshi did not leave the guest room
Hideyoshi does not exist in the guest room
Hideyoshi is dead.
clues? And also how did he do that? in Umineko the only 2 times, someone commited suicide was by either poison or with a winchester... and please... don't come with "he suffocated himself somehow" or "he hang himself somehow". And again no clues for poison. And if a gun was used, Erika would very likely hear it.

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Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
Shkanontrice is essential to Beatrice's solution actually working at all, because otherwise Kanon ends up in the room and what happened is obvious and Mystery wins. Beatrice's solution was most likely something along the lines of "Kanon rescues battler, resets the chain, hides in the closet and then "dies", leaving behind Shannon/Beatrice."
Since I firmly believe that "genius Battler" was involved, I am sure that he would not dare to fake himself trapped in a logic error, if shkanontrice didn't exist. Because there still would be 7/8 more deaths of people, he could use then.
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Old 2012-05-12, 06:09   Link #28784
Saorin
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Don't worry you are not alone in thinking shkanon is blatantly stupid, just ask Renall!

I'm not that much judgemental about it, but I always thought it needed to have a very good explanation. There have been theories that more or less make it sound more plausible and acceptable, but to be honest I'm not 100% satisfied, and anyway I think that when you write something absolutely outrageous that's when you owe your readers an explanation, you can't just let them speculate on their own when the easier explanation "bad writing" is just around the corner.
I wholeheartedly agree! Thanks, Jan-Poo. =)

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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
edit: Took too long writing this message on a mobile and got ninja'd. 8) i was responding to Saorin.

(...)
I outline my theory in the my first signature link, with quotes from episode 1 and 2, where it seems the answer was laid out in its entirety for us.
Thanks, kylon, the reply is appreciated. I've actually already read your theory there. =)

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Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan View Post
I wouldn't say that it was stupid though. If you go back you can see that Shkanon clues are all over the place. (...) Apparently he was expecting the people who hadn't caught on to Shkanon to still be confused after reading EP7. And yes, going along preferring other cat box solutions seems to be the point of the game. Look at Ange's gold truth at the end of Twilight compared the Bern's red.
No, you misunderstand. I never said that it wasn't hinted at (that would be seriously dumb - it was hinted at in every goddamn game, but that doesn't mean those hints couldn't have possibly been a red herring), but that I find the entire device and concept stupid. I actually even might have bought into a "split personality"-style person with maybe ONE additional persona, be that only Shkanon or Yasushannon whatever. But 4 personas being one person - sorry, I find that unimagineable ridiculous. oO You don't have to agree here, this is obviously my own personal opinion, but I think this concept is stretching things pretty hard and is a cheap way out.

And I can't think of how a person would still be confused after reading Ep7. It basically spells out YasuShkanontrice. It was even pretty straightforward what with the "bud of love" being transferred and stuff. This didn't seem like a puzzle at all.


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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Yeah I know, but do you find it more ridiculous or less ridiculous than the non-ShKanon theory with Kanon escaping before Erika completes her sealing of the cousins' room?
I easily have to admit that the "using the time span Eriksa is sealing the windows" escape would be too easy, I merely put it forward as a potentially doable endavour. I can't believe it's the solution to the logic error. But I clearly have to say that I find it less ridiculous as it's not about killing imaginary personas in one's head. oO

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post

Also, my own problem with Shkanon isn't so much that it EXISTS, but that he tried to hinge almost EVERY mystery on it. Could have explored several other directions to mix things up, especially with 18 characters to play around with.
Seconded. But if it's the way to go, he maybe wanted to unmistakenly make it the "heart" of the mystery - nothing else matters. Or something along those lines.

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
clues? And also how did he do that? in Umineko the only 2 times, someone commited suicide was by either poison or with a winchester... and please... don't come with "he suffocated himself somehow" or "he hang himself somehow". And again no clues for poison. And if a gun was used, Erika would very likely hear it.
Meta shows Erika shooting bullets - I wouldn't find it entirely out of the question for piece!Erika to have shot whomever was standing in the closet from the outside. It's not as if she hadn't severed some heads before that. xD

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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post

Since I firmly believe that "genius Battler" was involved, I am sure that he would not dare to fake himself trapped in a logic error, if shkanontrice didn't exist. Because there still would be 7/8 more deaths of people, he could use then.
I just find that Battler's suffering inside the logic error seemed pretty real - has he become such a splendid actor? =D
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Old 2012-05-12, 06:22   Link #28785
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
Meta shows Erika shooting bullets - I wouldn't find it entirely out of the question for piece!Erika to have shot whomever was standing in the closet from the outside. It's not as if she hadn't severed some heads before that. xD
shoot................... with what?



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Originally Posted by Saorin View Post
I just find that Battler's suffering inside the logic error seemed pretty real - has he become such a splendid actor? =D
This can be considered as a symbol of BATTLER's worry, that chick Beato may not "get it".

Also if he really just fell for it, then i don't understand, why BATTLER played it so risky at all. I mean even if "Kyrie saved him", that would not be hard to guess at all. I don't see a "wonderful closed room" in that. It would be like Battler took 1 step forward in EP5, but 10 steps back in EP6.
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Old 2012-05-12, 06:24   Link #28786
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I actually even might have bought into a "split personality"-style person with maybe ONE additional persona, be that only Shkanon or Yasushannon whatever. But 4 personas being one person - sorry, I find that unimagineable ridiculous.
Truth is stranger than fiction!
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Old 2012-05-12, 10:32   Link #28787
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I just find that Battler's suffering inside the logic error seemed pretty real - has he become such a splendid actor? =D
What do you think the Endless Magic is?
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Old 2012-05-12, 10:40   Link #28788
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was by either poison
Who committed suicide with poison? Also I don't think anyone has committed suicide with a Chester either, I think Shannon used a handgun according to Ryu
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Old 2012-05-12, 11:12   Link #28789
Vnonymous
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GreyZone, Battler wasn't "playing risky" on purpose. Erika tricked him into giving her those seals, and without those seals Battler's game would have been a lot more difficult for her. He ended up in the logic error because he got tricked into giving up the seals, and then was too vague when defining what they could do.

After all, Battler is incompetent. There's no way that he planned the logic error, considering the amount of genius required to fully anticipate Erika AND Bernkastel's actions.
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Old 2012-05-12, 13:30   Link #28790
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Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post

After all, Battler is incompetent.
Remember that that red was stated in relation to EP1,
written by Yasu who characterized Battler after who he was 6 years ago
and that red might've been true in relation to the piece Battler considering his actual age.

Still, I'll agree it's a bit far-fetched in places but considering other stuff Umineko's gotten away with it's very plausible.
Regardless of dubious play during the leadup, the main idea,
that is: Battler knowing the simple solution to the 'logic error' that hinges on Shkanon but keeps it to himself
in hopes that it'll make chick Beato remember is still a very obvious point listening to the way he worded things during EP6
with the talk about leaving the chick Beato to figure things out herself so he could hold onto a miracle and such.
It seems like the obvious climax to that plan (as opposed to nothing coming out of it).

Last edited by CrimsonMoonMist; 2012-05-12 at 20:51.
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Old 2012-05-12, 17:12   Link #28791
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
GreyZone, Battler wasn't "playing risky" on purpose. Erika tricked him into giving her those seals, and without those seals Battler's game would have been a lot more difficult for her. He ended up in the logic error because he got tricked into giving up the seals, and then was too vague when defining what they could do.

After all, Battler is incompetent. There's no way that he planned the logic error, considering the amount of genius required to fully anticipate Erika AND Bernkastel's actions.
EP8 outright confirmed that he planned it, so...
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Old 2012-05-12, 17:54   Link #28792
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I generally think at the logic error as something akin to Battler declaring he got a writer block so he can't write the solution when in truth he has it in his mind and Beato figuring out the solution and writing it for him.

So Battler knew what the pieces had to do he just pretended he didn't.

Though Dlanor is presented as Erika's ally I think in the end she's bounded to be pretty impartial. Even if she knew something was out of place and might have suspected Battler to do something likely couldn't report it to Erika without the gamemaster's permission because apparently only the GM is exempt by the

It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique

as when the GM assures something the detective doesn't need to provide clues about it (and when the GM is unwilling to assure something Dlanor and his assistants' truth are sealed like in EP 5 with Kinzo's window).

For Battler pretending to be in a logic error was fundamental because he wanted Beato to take over the story and find the solution he had written, therefore recovering memory of herself (or solving her own riddle).

The interesting thing to wonder should be: what if Beato had found a solution that didn't involve ShKannon?

As for preserving fantasy... well, through all the games fantasy was always at risk of being destroyed as everything was done using human tricks.

Though I guess in reference to the specific seal if Erika were to ask if that seal was still as she left it Battler/Beato could have said:
Shannon and the other people with her in the room didn't break it.

... which is true as it's actually 'Kanon' who broke it and is a reply that can trick Erika as it doesn't reveal the truth that the seal is broken.

It's similar to when Battler asked Beato to say in red that there were only 18 people on the island and she said there were no more than 18 people on the island.

It seems the same but actually it leaves space for a 'there's less than 18 people on the island'.

Sure, if Erika were to remain suspicious she could have pressed for other red truths and eventually she could have figured out the truth. I guess it's a recurring risk in all the games.
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Old 2012-05-12, 18:29   Link #28793
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I always thought the logic error was more of a situation where Battler had the tools to get out (Shkanon), but, in the heat of the moment, he couldn't come up with a way to move the pieces (shannon-kanon) while preserving the fantasy at the same time.
It was more of a matter of creativity than being stupid or planning a logic error all along.


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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
EP8 outright confirmed that he planned it, so...
Sorry but, in which part? (my memory is failing me, it's been so long...)
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Old 2012-05-12, 18:50   Link #28794
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It was more of a matter of creativity than being stupid or planning a logic error all along.
Exactly my feelings on the subject
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Old 2012-05-12, 18:50   Link #28795
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
What do you think the Endless Magic is?
I don't quite get what you mean here?
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Old 2012-05-12, 21:38   Link #28796
GreyZone
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Imagine, Erika didn't kill the other 5 death-fakers... 1 of them could have rescued Battler... so? What makes this such a great closed room? That room is completly useless from the standpoint of the GM, because:


1. It would mean Battler acually thinks that Erika cannot figure out that someone switched places with Battler.

2. The exchanged person could be found, if Erika did another "investigation of the room". (He even risked to be found himself before, if Erika checked the closet before the bathroom...)


Please give me a valid reason (while adressing the 2 points above), why Battler still insisted in this room, after he got to know that 1 portion of the seals was used to seal it up.
The only one I can come up with would really just be incompetence, which would be a very lame story device, because it would deem all the "character developement" in EP5 as pointless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist View Post
Remember that that red was stated in relation to EP1,
written by Yasu who characterized Battler after who he was 6 years ago
and that red might've been true in relation to the piece Battler considering his actual age.
I think so too.
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Old 2012-05-12, 22:31   Link #28797
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Sorry but, in which part? (my memory is failing me, it's been so long...)
The existence of the logic error hinges on Erika being able to affect the game board without the Game Master's knowledge. In EP8, Battler, Beatrice, and Lambda all say that this is fundamentally impossible, and Bern can only get away with moving Ange by being co-Game Master. At around the same time, Battler also describes himself during a card game as someone who isn't afraid to throw a fight in order to go for the big win.
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Old 2012-05-13, 00:12   Link #28798
theacefrehley
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The existence of the logic error hinges on Erika being able to affect the game board without the Game Master's knowledge. In EP8, Battler, Beatrice, and Lambda all say that this is fundamentally impossible, and Bern can only get away with moving Ange by being co-Game Master. At around the same time, Battler also describes himself during a card game as someone who isn't afraid to throw a fight in order to go for the big win.
If it's the part I'm thinking, there's quite a jump from there to conclude he planned everything.


Battler allowed Erika to mess with his game with retroactive seals and such.
It was almost like Erika was a co-gamemaster.

Whatever~
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Old 2012-05-13, 00:26   Link #28799
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Imagine, Erika didn't kill the other 5 death-fakers... 1 of them could have rescued Battler... so? What makes this such a great closed room? That room is completly useless from the standpoint of the GM, because:

1. It would mean Battler acually thinks that Erika cannot figure out that someone switched places with Battler.

2. The exchanged person could be found, if Erika did another "investigation of the room". (He even risked to be found himself before, if Erika checked the closet before the bathroom...)

Please give me a valid reason (while adressing the 2 points above), why Battler still insisted in this room, after he got to know that 1 portion of the seals was used to seal it up.
Doesn't Genius Battler explain all this? You are familiar with the idea, right?

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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
The existence of the logic error hinges on Erika being able to affect the game board without the Game Master's knowledge.
I think Erika affected the gameboard retroactively, so Erika did not affect the gameboard without Battler knowing- she just affected the gameboard's past with Battler knowing.

But I still believe Genius Battler. It makes so much sense in so many ways.
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Old 2012-05-13, 01:46   Link #28800
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Battler doesn't need to know exactly what Erika will do to screw him over if he has provided her the tools to encourage her to more or less go after him in a particular way.

Remember, Genji/Ronove told Battler about the existence of Logic Errors while he was working on the story. For something he literally just talked to someone about, Battler sure acts surprised when Erika goes for it. Isn't it more reasonable to think that his awareness of Logic Errors influenced his construction of the story to allow for one?

Also: Why three rooms? Why not one, or two, or five, or as many as Erika wished? Three is a fairly arbitrary number, but it also happens to be exactly as many as Erika needs.

I never brought this up in the initial proposal of Genius Battler but someone raised this point just recently and I think it's telling as well: Battler's pre-murder-reveal solution is incredibly mundane and doesn't actually preserve the fantasy at all. Having one of the other victims switch with him is such a genuinely pathetic idea that Erika might as well have just allowed it because it was dumb and wouldn't have done Battler any good. Why would that have even been something he'd propose but to look desperate?

EDIT: And if nothing can happen without the GM's knowledge, Battler would already know the other victims were dead, so he'd have to be doing it on purpose because he can't propose something he knows is wrong earnestly.
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