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Old 2012-05-08, 21:39   Link #2341
Vexx
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Except for stopping for high tea.... the Yanks aren't that sophisticated
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Old 2012-05-08, 22:38   Link #2342
Endless Soul
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Great discussion so far, I'm really enjoying the analyses you guys are posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post

This was the other thing that caught my eye:

Quote:
A great many motor vehicles are included in the organization of the U. S. forces, who are thoroughly experienced in using them. They plan strategic and tactical actions with them that are unthought of by us
I probably should have explained myself when I posted this earlier. The reason why it caught my eye at the time was that it shows the fact that the U.S. armed forces the Japanese were facing at the time were, of course, highly mechanized, whereas the Japanese armed forces were not. You could say that the American love affair with the car was well underway at this time.

I may be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that the Japanese invented modern amphibious assaults. However, that innovation ended with landing barges. The U.S. took that idea and ran with it, perfecting the amphibious assault and using it against the Japanese with success time and time again.

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Old 2012-05-08, 22:44   Link #2343
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endless Soul View Post
I may be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that the Japanese invented modern amphibious assaults. However, that innovation ended with landing barges. The U.S. took that idea and ran with it, perfecting the amphibious assault and using it against the Japanese with success time and time again.
It wasn't the US as a whole who ran with it: It was one individual, Andrew Higgins, who made breakthroughs in the designing of the "Higgins boats", the Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel (LCVP).
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Old 2012-05-08, 23:21   Link #2344
Endless Soul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
It wasn't the US as a whole who ran with it: It was one individual, Andrew Higgins, who made breakthroughs in the designing of the "Higgins boats", the Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel (LCVP).
True, the Higgins Boat was used in the Pacific, but I was thinking more about the LVT "Amtrac" which is, of course, much more capable than a barge. Higgins didn't make those. Also there were the much larger LSTs, a British invention.

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Old 2012-05-09, 05:33   Link #2345
DonQuigleone
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The US were much more mechanized then any other army in the war, though I don't think it was cultural. It was much to do with their industrial capacity. IE if the other countries in the war could have put out as many motorized vehicles as the US, they would have, but what industrial capacity they had was going towards more objectively important weapons (planes, tanks, artillery).

For instance, almost all the cars used by the soviets were manufactured in the US. It helps that the US had the largest car industry going into the war. The only other country that could match them in this respect was Germany, and most of their car industry was diverted into tank production.

Motorized brigades would have made up a minority of every other army, the average soldier had to make do with marching, or if they were lucky, rail.
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Old 2012-05-11, 01:04   Link #2346
Vexx
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I recall reading in some European histories of the war that the most astonishing thing to the Europeans about the American forces was that *everyone* rode *everywhere* and that they'd leave perfectly functioning vehicles just scattered about if they became superfluous.
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Old 2012-05-11, 01:36   Link #2347
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Except for stopping for high tea.... the Yanks aren't that sophisticated
And they use proper big guns on their tanks which we can all see are rifled for greater accuracy. Unlike those smoothbore American ones which just hits something... over there.

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Old 2012-05-11, 03:48   Link #2348
aohige
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We don't wish to discuss tanks.
Unlike the American Sherman tanks, and the amazing German Tiger tanks, we had Chiha tanks seemingly made out of cardboard boxes, rusty fish buckets, and empty tuna cans.

I'm pretty sure my Toyota Corolla is more bulletproof.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:42   Link #2349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I recall reading in some European histories of the war that the most astonishing thing to the Europeans about the American forces was that *everyone* rode *everywhere* and that they'd leave perfectly functioning vehicles just scattered about if they became superfluous.
Did anyone ever locate said vehicles?
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:51   Link #2350
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
We don't wish to discuss tanks.
Unlike the American Sherman tanks, and the amazing German Tiger tanks, we had Chiha tanks seemingly made out of cardboard boxes, rusty fish buckets, and empty tuna cans.

I'm pretty sure my Toyota Corolla is more bulletproof.
What about this? The armour material is......beautiful! Unlike the crude and barbaric American DU sandwich plates....

When are they developing Gundarium?
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Old 2012-05-12, 08:35   Link #2351
Akka
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Well, here is a question that has been bothering me for quite some time, in relation to japanese culture and how it expresses in anime - and yes, I know, animes are not real life

One of, if not THE most prevalent male protagonist archetype, is the "nice guy to the extreme", that is someone who is nice to a fault, and happily let himself be insulted, abused and exploited by some domineering/rude/selfish girl/friend/whatever, usually female. And this kind of guy is simply ubiquitous, even in male-oriented market.

On the other hand, I think I've heard that Japan is still very male-dominated, and that the role-model is more about being a "strong man".

I have a hard time understanding how social norms like the latter could create something like the former outside of shojo manga, especially considering the famous normative power of the society.

I suppose there is something I'm missing in japanese culture, and it's a point I'm rather curious about. So, could an insider explain it all ? ^^
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Old 2012-05-12, 09:46   Link #2352
DonQuigleone
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Herbivorous males.

Also, consider the demographic most anime is aimed at: Teen-Young adult nerdy males. I don't know about you, but as a teen I was terrible with women(in fact I'm still terrible...), and so a lot of clichés in Anime had a certain amount of resonance. Also, seeing guys fail at romance like that has a certain element of Schadenfreude.

So the typical romantic/harem plot, whereby the loser male gets all these girls holds a lot of attraction to otaku, who may be losers themselves. It tells them "You can get a girlfriend too!".

It's as much a case of a demographic being catered to, that in the west does not get catered to. Closest thing might be Judd Apatow movies.

Also, in a society where males are dominant, there's a certain comedy in males being subservient. Consider American Family Sitcoms as well. Going back to the 30s the father is usually somewhat of a doofus, with the wife is smart. This is drawing comedy by basically flipping traditional gender norms.

For instance guy abuses a girl -> drama. Girl abuses a guy -> comedy.
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Old 2012-05-12, 10:02   Link #2353
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Herbivorous males.

Also, consider the demographic most anime is aimed at: Teen-Young adult nerdy males. I don't know about you, but as a teen I was terrible with women(in fact I'm still terrible...), and so a lot of clichés in Anime had a certain amount of resonance. Also, seeing guys fail at romance like that has a certain element of Schadenfreude.

So the typical romantic/harem plot, whereby the loser male gets all these girls holds a lot of attraction to otaku, who may be losers themselves. It tells them "You can get a girlfriend too!".

It's as much a case of a demographic being catered to, that in the west does not get catered to. Closest thing might be Judd Apatow movies.

Also, in a society where males are dominant, there's a certain comedy in males being subservient. Consider American Family Sitcoms as well. Going back to the 30s the father is usually somewhat of a doofus, with the wife is smart. This is drawing comedy by basically flipping traditional gender norms.

For instance guy abuses a girl -> drama. Girl abuses a guy -> comedy.
I don't hit girls because I fear seeing them cry. Does that make me a herbivorous guy? Having been the heck-care type when it comes to girls and some ridiculous level of pain tolerance, I'd say that a girl abusing a guy is NOT a comedy. I still don't understand what is so funny when Sumeragi abuses me on this forum.

Naturally though, it still proves one thing : human beings, male or female, are insecure creatures.
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Old 2012-05-12, 10:16   Link #2354
Akka
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I don't really buy the target demographic : making so the audience relate to the protagonist is certainly a good thing for marketing, so making him a somehow shy guy bad with women is understandable, but making him a buttmonkey that gets abused and without a spine ? If it's about making people relate, it's rather insulting. You would think that you would like the hero you relate to, to be at least able to bite back and not just be a passive loser - showing you that you can get a girl AND you can be an actual person and not just a doormat for people to clean their feet on.

As well as the humorous inversion of gender role, I can get it (we do it rather commonly in the West too), but it's just so UBIQUITOUS that I think there is something else here. I mean, I have a hard time remembering even ONE protagonist that didn't let himself to be abused by some maniacal female friend, so it's not even a trend, it's downright systematic.

The link about herbivorous male is rather interesting, though, especially as it seems it started roughly at the same time as the victim-protagonist cliché. Maybe that is an actual deep shift in the whole japanese society.

One more reason to wait with interest for a Japanese member's point of view on the subject !
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Old 2012-05-12, 12:12   Link #2355
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
As well as the humorous inversion of gender role, I can get it (we do it rather commonly in the West too), but it's just so UBIQUITOUS that I think there is something else here. I mean, I have a hard time remembering even ONE protagonist that didn't let himself to be abused by some maniacal female friend, so it's not even a trend, it's downright systematic.
I wouldn't go that far, there's plenty of male characters who aren't total complete losers. The whole Love Hina/Tenchi Muyo Archetype of complete loser male is not as ubiquitous as you might think. Here's some recent examples of shows with guys who aren't the "complete loser" archetype:

Natsume Yuujinchou
Hotarubi no Mori e
AnoHana
Usagi Drop
Bakuman
Sakamichi No Appolon
Tiger and Bunny
Danshi Koukosei no Nichijou
Ao no Exorcist
Gundam Unicorn
Gundam Age
Mawaru Penguindrum.


The "complete loser" is really only common in Harems. That said, there are plenty of "weak males" outside of the "complete loser". Generally I'd split it up as follows:

1. Complete losers: These are indeed the complete losers to whom you refer. No redeeming qualities. Might occasionally have a bout of courage. No particular reason for being losers either.

2. Legitimate losers: These are guys who are dysfunctional, but are legitimately so, often feature in more dramatic stuff, think Welcome to the NHK or The Tatami Galaxy. They may end out overcoming their problems.

3. Initially losers: A lot of Shonen, the guy starts off weak, but gains courage, guts and strength as the story continues. Think Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, or most any sports or Shonen show.

Only number 1 gets egregiously abused by the women around him. 1 is more of a comedy agent, it's not funny to see an amazing guy get with loads of women, but it is to see a loser. Again, this character is also super extreme version of many Otaku, he has the hangups many otaku have, but he gets into "hilarious" situations, allowing the viewer to laugh at himself. There's also Schadenfreude going on here. It's a bit like laughing at Mr. Magoo, or Mr. Bean etc. This character never changes as the story continues. He might grow enough of a pair to confess to the girl at the end. Might. They're endemic to Comedies and Harem shows.

Number 2 is intended to explore real life issues otaku viewers might have, this character type is rarely seen being outright abused by anyone, but is still a loser, and misanthropic. This is more about Drama, I rarely see anyone complain about these guys.

Number 3 has the benefit of being both empathetic to the viewer, presenting a good fantasy, and being generally superior to the alternative (utterly amazing hero). In contrast to an utterly amazing hero, it's impossible for the viewer to think "This guy is just like me" and shows that with effort and courage, he can be just like that character. It's also dramatically satisfying to see someone overcome their fears. This wouldn't be possible with a character that's all round amazing. It features a lot more possibilities for introspection and characterisation compared to a lead who kicks ass and chews bubblegum. While the ass-kicking badass is cool, he makes for a poor lead, because there's no real way for him to improve, he's already an ass-kicking badass. Seeing a guy start as an ass-kicking badass and end as an ass-kicking badass isn't satisfying. Seeing someone go from zero to hero is. That's why the protagonist of Star Wars is Luke Skywalker, even if we all prefer Han Solo. And that's why the star of every sports movie ever is some loser team at the bottom of the league, not the team at the top of their game that initially beats them at the start, but that loses against them again in the heroic finale.

In terms of male characterisation, I think Anime actually does a lot better then most other genres of young adult fiction (particularly their closest counterpart, american comics).
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Old 2012-05-12, 13:51   Link #2356
aohige
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Nerds sympathises with nerds.

Quite simple.

American nerds fantasies they were buffed, badass, and macho. = superhero idolizing syndrome
Japanese nerds wish they were accepted the way they are = spineless buttmonkey protagonist syndrome

It wasn't always this way, back in the 80s the mindset of a Japanese nerd was a lot closer to that of the American ones.
(look at Space Cobra, Lupin IIIrd, Mazinger Z, Hokuto no Ken, Kinnikuman, City Hunter, to name a few)
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Old 2012-05-12, 13:55   Link #2357
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Nerds sympathises with nerds.

Quite simple.

American nerds fantasies they were buffed, badass, and macho. = superhero idolizing syndrome
Japanese nerds wish they were accepted the way they are = spineless buttmonkey protagonist syndrome
I supposed you grew up in the era where heroes were overflowing with manliness like the characters in Hokuto no Ken instead of pretty boys like those in PoT.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-05-12, 13:56   Link #2358
aohige
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Haha, your timing is impeccable, Saint, I was just editing that in.

Needless to say, I prefer the old days protags.
Same even goes for eroge. The early 90s eroge protagonists were badass, strong, manly, and openly playboy.
Now they're just as spineless and whiney as their anime counterparts.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:16   Link #2359
SaintessHeart
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Originally Posted by aohige View Post
Haha, your timing is impeccable, Saint, I was just editing that in.

Needless to say, I prefer the old days protags.
Same even goes for eroge. The early 90s eroge protagonists were badass, strong, manly, and openly playboy.
Now they're just as spineless and whiney as their anime counterparts.
The feminists were complaining that we spent too much time being like our metallic mecha and hell-raising hunks in their gun-slinging martial-arts escapades, so we transformed into pretty boys who look effeminate in the uniforms of our predecessors :



My heroes are still the Expendables-types though. And people call me old-fashioned. And the fujoshis are going to have a field day with that picture about what he and his buddy will do while under camoflage in their spider-holes......
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:20   Link #2360
Sumeragi
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Nah, I have too much respect for the military to think of such things. My fiancé is a former ROKMC, and he's a compact hunk, especially compared to the stupid machos of the past. Finely toned muscles everywhere.

Also, rare is the eroge protagonist who are worth anything.
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