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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 55 43.65%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 30.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 17.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 5.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.79%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.79%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.79%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-12, 14:25   Link #21
Arabesque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by From: Kiritsugu
Dear Natalia,

I never told this, but I always thought of you as the fire that kept me going through this dark world. For that, today on your special day, I want you to see just how big of an impact you made on me.

Love from your son, Kerrytugu
Happy Mothers Day, Natalia.

And she was just one day from retirement too. Isn't it sad Natalia?

So, I saw on twitter that this apparently wasn't actually Heart of Freaks? If so, I'm inclined to believe ufotable Studio is actually filled with a bunch of sadistic bastards lol

I must say, I truly pity Kerry. He will forever live with that crying face of his, believing in a broken philosophy that leads only to despair, with no hope and no way back. If you think about it, Natalia is to blame for this out come as well, since she's the one who taught and got Kerry on this path, and the one who got it into his head to kill everyone (I was kidding she said lol Too bloody late for that Natalia-san! Dude is seriously going to kill every person he sees as evil in the entire world!).

I think this is where the writing for this show really shines through. It's where characters like Kerrytugu that I at worst despise and think they deserve what is coming for them and at best think only of them as interesting to watch but can never agree with their world view (in fact, I find what Kerry does to be repulsive) can be shown not in a sympathetic light, but in an understanding one. I could get how this kid transformed from a child into a killer, I could see his motivation and ideal forming into the one the man is using currently, I can understand how he came to become so broken, see the conflict. And in the end, my feelings are replaced with feelings of pity for him.

I still don't like Kiritsugu at all, but thanks to this two part flashback a really fascinating lead to watch.

Also, major kudos to Rikiya Koyama. The man had been giving a very subdued performance to Kiritsugu throughout this series, only giving us small glimpses of emotions every now and then , but the end with this episode he just went all out and made me seriously believe that Kiritsugu had in fact cracked completely.

With that all said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I think UFOtable's mistake was to put Kiritsugu's origin story that late in the series, when they could have been used as "breather" episodes in both seasons. Putting them the way they did have broken the flow of the story for me. Thanksfully, we are back into the action in the next ep.
I'm sort of inclined to agree with this. I think that having a flashback this late, while admittedly a great flashback on it's own right and pretty enlightening to Kiritsugu's character, I think this could've been better implemented much earlier in the series rather at it's final stretch.

Regardless, this was a greatly enjoyable couple of episodes. Next week is back to the main conflict!
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:27   Link #22
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Well, I think it's good to show how much he was breaking down from it, instead of coldly accepting it like everything else, so we know it's all basically an act.
The whole scene is just so overblown in a way for the writers to state "I'm SAD" in straight capital letters. I think it's a sort of scene where the writers weren't confident in the audience to just go with a subtler scene.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:33   Link #23
hero147
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I have the exact opposite reaction of everybody here...Though I'm not a novel reader, I did like Kiritsugu's character before the flashback, however, this episode made him lose a couple of favourability points with me.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:38   Link #24
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
The whole scene is just so overblown in a way for the writers to state "I'm SAD" in straight capital letters. I think it's a sort of scene where the writers weren't confident in the audience to just go with a subtler scene.
Disagreed here, I like the scene the way it's done, Kiritsugu's response feels very human and I don't think it's unrealistic or over-the-top at all. A 'subtle' version of the scene would have just seemed dry to me, and it's perfectly believable to crack when you've just killed the one person in the world most important to you (When you're already exhausted and emotionally vulnerable from a sleepless, stress-filled night at that).
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:42   Link #25
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Disagreed here, I like the scene the way it's done, Kiritsugu's response feels very human and I don't think it's unrealistic or over-the-top at all. A 'subtle' version of the scene would have just seemed dry to me, and it's perfectly believable to crack when you've just killed the one person in the world most important to you (When you're already exhausted and emotionally vulnerable from a sleepless, stress-filled night at that).
There are other ways to show a person cracking than to have them crying on the floor explaining themselves to a dead person.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:44   Link #26
Dr. Casey
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Yeah, it sure is strange for someone who just killed their mother figure to behave irrationally
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:47   Link #27
Arabesque
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I'm pretty sure Kiritsugu was making excuses to himself, bringing up Sherry since it was his mistake to not kill her there and then that caused that tragedy on the island. We get to see earlier in the episode that he already linked this case with what happened with last weeks episode, so I don't think it was a bad way IMO.

Also, by the time he broke down and started crying, he was more of cursing himself for what what he had done ...
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:48   Link #28
Awrya
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Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
There are other ways to show a person cracking than to have them crying on the floor explaining themselves to a dead person.
He had a trauma from when he was ~10 (or so) where he killed everyone in the village because he hesitated to kill Shirley. Would you rather see him with a smoke and drink rationally explain his decision?
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:51   Link #29
Jarmel
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Yeah, it sure is strange for someone who just killed their mother figure to behave irrationally
Again it was an example of overacting. You have to draw the line somewhere in regards to the character's mental state. Yes that was the most straining thing he's ever done emotionally however the dialogue was completely unnecessary and a way to remind viewers of what happened in the previous episode. It was the writers' way of saying, "Hey guys remember Shirley and remember him not being able to pull the trigger? Well here's a blaring reminder just for you if you forgot in the past episode. Oh and we need to make it perfectly clear that he's not shooting down the plane for no reason otherwise people might think he's a villain." This is one of those cases where you let the visuals do the work instead of having dialogue, that's one of the strengths of any visual medium compared to books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awrya View Post
He had a trauma from when he was ~10 (or so) where he killed everyone in the village because he hesitated to kill Shirley. Would you rather see him with a smoke and drink rationally explain his decision?
I would rather see subtle body language instead of him giving a speech declaring his feelings.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:52   Link #30
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Kiri knows he is going to hell since he is already living it. The Grail is his redemption. However he is looking for redemption in a Butcher Gen work...Homu-chan can tell him how well that works out.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:54   Link #31
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmel View Post
Again it was an example of overacting. You have to draw the line somewhere in regards to the character's mental state. Yes that was the most straining thing he's ever done emotionally however the dialogue was completely unnecessary and a way to remind viewers of what happened in the previous episode. It was the writers' way of saying, "Hey guys remember Shirley and remember him not being able to pull the trigger? Well here's a blaring reminder just for you if you forgot in the past episode. Oh and we need to make it perfectly clear that he's not shooting down the plane for no reason otherwise people might think he's a villain." This is one of those cases where you let the visuals do the work instead of having dialogue, that's one of the strengths of any visual medium compared to books.
Ah, well that's more understandable. I think we just see things differently here; I could very well see someone mumble their feelings aloud to themselves during the numbed aftershock following something horrible, and don't see it as an insult to the viewers' intelligence but rather just a perfectly natural and human response.
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Old 2012-05-12, 14:59   Link #32
willyvereb
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@Jarmel:
I believe you haven't heard of a pretty important element for drama:
Catharsis

Kiritsugu breaking out in tears was the icing on a well built up cake of tragedy.
There wasn't any overacting there.

Subtlety is good except it's a terrible way to convey strong emotions. Like showing exactly how much of a broken man Kiritsugu had become.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:01   Link #33
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I disagree with Jarmel.

Hope we get back to the holy grail war though.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:03   Link #34
willyvereb
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Originally Posted by Broskander View Post
I disagree with Jarmel.

Hope we can back to the holy grail war though.
Well, we're back to the usual previews so I'm sure we will.

Albeit if those voice excerpts were any implier the tragedies won't stop there. Just keep piling up.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:04   Link #35
X10A_Freedom
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Ufotable did a very nice CGI render of an A300B2 complete with wingtip fences in the old Air France colours. Even the cockpit was right, although the source picture the studio used was obviously on a shut-down aircraft on the ground. The airspeed indicator read 0 and the backup attitude indicator was tipped over. Such was the detail! Minor snag - Air France's A300B2-200s don't have the range to viably fly over the pond to New York!

Surface-to-air missile. I'd have thought it would be heat-seeking and go straight to the engine, but it went to the top of the wing instead with is rather bizarre. That said, an A300 in Iraq did survive a RPG which missed the engine and hit the outer wing from the bottom-up...

Enough aviation geek banter and onto the anime. It's as if Kiritsugu was interrogating Natalia at the end about her future plans. I think Natalia's decision to retire and be a mother was the final straw in Kiritsugu's decision to shoot the aircraft down. If Natalia were to continue getting rid of wanted people, the remote possibility of releasing the insects may have been worth taking. She is one formidable assasin who can get rid of big targets into the future. Knowing she was going to retire would mean such a risk was no longer worth it as the 'return' would be zilch - she has become a civilian.

I found it amusing how she compared the big Airbus to a Cessna. :P Assuming she was able to land (being no ordinary person, she'll likely do it without crashing), what would have happened was for her to grab an emergency rope (standard equipment) and climb out of the open-able cockpit window, onto the ground. A pressurised aircraft like the A300 is seal-tight and the cockpit door seemed to be able to keep the insects out as well. What would have been done was Natalia to using her connections to keep the feds out, and quarantine the aircraft until the bugs are all dead from natural causes...or hook up a ground air-conditioning unit and do a fumigation.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:18   Link #36
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X10A_Freedom View Post
I found it amusing how she compared the big Airbus to a Cessna. :P Assuming she was able to land (being no ordinary person, she'll likely do it without crashing), what would have happened was for her to grab an emergency rope (standard equipment) and climb out of the open-able cockpit window, onto the ground. A pressurised aircraft like the A300 is seal-tight and the cockpit door seemed to be able to keep the insects out as well. What would have been done was Natalia to using her connections to keep the feds out, and quarantine the aircraft until the bugs are all dead from natural causes...or hook up a ground air-conditioning unit and do a fumigation.
Interesting.
So in the end there was an alternative that might've worked out without endangering any more lives.
Perhaps the author not being an expert in aviation probably never considered that chance.

Anyways, I suppose even if Kiritsugu were aware of that he would've still shot the plane down.

Reducing the causalities is one thing. As an incident related to magecraft they also had to do their best to clean up the mess.
Suddenly blowing up a passanger plane that just recently got down is rather extreme. Not to mention the possibility of people finding something in the wreckage.
And then there's the issue with the mysterious woman (Natalia) apparently escaping right before the plane exploded...
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:19   Link #37
mAc Chaos
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It was more that even though there was a CHANCE to save Natalia, Kiritsugu is the type to always go for the 0% chance of failure, and that meant blowing up the plane.

If this was another series with another hero, they probably would've tried to get her out and might have succeeded.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:21   Link #38
Jarmel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
@Jarmel:
I believe you haven't heard of a pretty important element for drama:
Catharsis

Kiritsugu breaking out in tears was the icing on a well built up cake of tragedy.
There wasn't any overacting there.

Subtlety is good except it's a terrible way to convey strong emotions. Like showing exactly how much of a broken man Kiritsugu had become.
I'm fully aware of catharsis however in this case it involved a long speech telling redundant information. It's something that would have worked much better in a novel compared to a visual format. Him yelling and crying in of itself might have been acceptable if he didn't go on then to just do a recap of events. Less is more especially when it comes to dialogue. I mean they already established the Shirley link earlier in the episode and even his final line to Natalia was a throwback to that. Do we really need a line stating, "Look I pulled the trigger. I'm finally capable of pulling the trigger" when it's already been established multiple times prior?
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:24   Link #39
AvianWing
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I feel like they should have put the flashback arc in an OVA or package them together with DVD release or something, along with that Tohsaka Rin episode. It's just too jarring with the presentation, not to mention that Kitsurugi just really isn't exactly my favorite character. Really glad we're going back on track now.
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Old 2012-05-12, 15:27   Link #40
X10A_Freedom
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
It was more that even though there was a CHANCE to save Natalia, Kiritsugu is the type to always go for the 0% chance of failure, and that meant blowing up the plane.
Which brings another interesting point of discussion that I left out!

Natalia was saying how "There is no point in saving others if you end up killing yourself." which is what made me think the "retiring" bit was the final straw.
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