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Old 2012-05-12, 21:06   Link #8221
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Tempest35 View Post
Natsu's gonna have to be rescued...it will be interseting to see by whom...(I'm betting on the Knights or some other guild getting him out of there). Erza will probably hand out corporal punishment at that time...

I'd actually like to see Jura whoop Genma - there's no doubt in my mind that Jura can do it. The dude is too awesome not to be seen again.

Speaking of seeing...WHERE IS MAVIS!!?? I want my super-kawaii guild master back!!!
If anyone interrupts the fight or saves Natsu...I just hope it is Mavis...anyone else would be...meh...
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Old 2012-05-12, 23:28   Link #8222
sergel02
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Am i the only one who think if the fight gets interrupted it'll be Yukino?
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Old 2012-05-12, 23:34   Link #8223
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Am i the only one who think if the fight gets interrupted it'll be Yukino?
Yukino, anyone from FT and Minerva are the most probable ones to interrupt the fight. Tournament guards are also probable but it would be way way way too anti-climactic.
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Old 2012-05-13, 01:28   Link #8224
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I wonder if Iwan for some reason comes and interrupts... That way we may see a glimpse of what he can do.
But if Iwan will show up it would most likely to watch the fun show...

Edit: I want for Natsu to have a battle against Miliana to see his ultimate move "Kitty in pain" again. Just imagine Natsu's battle is against Miliana and he pulls out a cat mask out of nowhere.

Last edited by DarkSkiper; 2012-05-13 at 03:23.
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Old 2012-05-13, 10:24   Link #8225
Tempest35
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Hnn, a battle against Miliana...
I wouldn't mind getting Marshmellow Hell'ed from Miliana now... If there wasn't any reason to like cat girls before, there's one now. But then again, Thundercats might have helped with that particular 'particularity' oh so long ago...
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Old 2012-05-13, 12:40   Link #8226
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Yukino, anyone from FT and Minerva are the most probable ones to interrupt the fight. Tournament guards are also probable but it would be way way way too anti-climactic.
I'd say Minerva would be the person with the highest chance of putting a stop to this fight before it gets too outta hand.
Altho I'm actually like to see someone like Laxus step in, think it would be a good chance to show him being more responsible now.

And also Laxus knows how to make a entrance
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Old 2012-05-13, 12:43   Link #8227
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
I'd say Minerva would be the person with the highest chance of putting a stop to this fight before it gets too outta hand.
Altho I'm actually like to see someone like Laxus step in, think it would be a good chance to show him being more responsible now.

And also Laxus knows how to make a entrance
By blowing holes through roofs and crashing down surrounded in lightning...

I could see that...
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Old 2012-05-13, 13:02   Link #8228
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Hmm... Laxus may react the same way as Natsu if he finds out the reason for Natsu's rampage, Gajeel would find it amusing to join for fun, Makarov will definitely react the same way Natsu did(if not more).
Well that just my opinion.
As Natsu is right now there are few who can stop him, so I think the only way to stop him is to:
a) Beat him unconscious.
b) Wait until he kicks Gemma's ass.
c.1) Show him Lucy's boobs...
c.2) Watch Lucy beat up Happy for suggesting that.
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Old 2012-05-13, 13:05   Link #8229
Randrak42
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Originally Posted by DarkSkiper View Post
Hmm... Laxus may react the same way as Natsu if he finds out the reason for Natsu's rampage, Gajeel would find it amusing to join for fun, Makarov will definitely react the same way Natsu did(if not more).
Well that just my opinion.
As Natsu is right now there are few who can stop him, so I think the only way to stop him is to:
a) Beat him unconscious.
b) Wait until he kicks Gemma's ass.
c.1) Show him Lucy's boobs...
c.2) Watch Lucy beat up Happy for suggesting that.
Makarov would be enraged...but IMOH the ONLY member of FT that would go on a rampage like Natsu is...well Natsu. Any other member would be pissed but also rational. Natsu is the only one that would do something like this.
Laxus? I would love to see him flip but remember that he had a similar mentality of "The weak should leave the guild" not that long ago.
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Old 2012-05-13, 13:15   Link #8230
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
If anyone interrupts the fight or saves Natsu...I just hope it is Mavis...anyone else would be...meh...
My thoughts exactly. Neet to see Mavis kick some ass.
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Old 2012-05-13, 14:16   Link #8231
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Mavis could work since only Natsu would see her.And then everyone would think he's talking to himself rofl
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Old 2012-05-13, 17:08   Link #8232
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I don't get why Sabertooth has to take all this flak about how they treat their members.

Sure, they humiliated and kicked out Yukino without batting an eye, but that's just their way of doing things. The important thing here is that each member knew what they were getting into when they first joined the guild. The problem here stems from preconceived notions on what a guild "should be". It's all well and good that FT views a guild as a happy place its where members get along, but it's also just as possible for a guild with Darwinist ideologies to pop out. After all, it's quite a practical way of doing things. It's apples and oranges, so why would you apply your values to a culture where it doesn't necessarily apply?

In anime/manga, you often find villains with the "the strong live, the weak die" philosophy in mind, but generally come of as unsympathetic because of how they attempt to impose such values to other people. However, this case with Sabertooth is different since the philosophy is only applied within the guild where everyone should already be well familiar with it. Why should we judge them when they already accept and live by that philosophy? If not, what are they still doing in the guild?

All that said, I will agree that Yukino's punishment was excessive, but I think it could be better seen as a huge warning sign to the readers that Sabertooth is EVIL, with the capital letters. Of course, knowing the genre of this work, prying deeper into this would probably be a waste of time.
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Old 2012-05-13, 17:43   Link #8233
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
I don't get why Sabertooth has to take all this flak about how they treat their members.
You answered that question yourself.

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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
All that said, I will agree that Yukino's punishment was excessive
That is the reason they are getting flak, cause they are excessive in treating their members.
Even then they don't treat everyone equally given with what happened with Sting and his loss, he gets off alot easier than Yukino.

Don't think anyone is saying Yukino shouldn't have been kicked out for losing if thats how Sabertooth handles that then fine but how they did it is what they get flak for.
And I don't particularly see it as saying Sabertooth is EVIL, just a bunch of ass jerks, much like Phantom Lord.

I could probably say some of this does stem from preconceived notions on what a guild "should be" but you expect a offically recognized guild to act better.
They don't need to be all chummy or knights in white armour but at least decent people.
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Old 2012-05-13, 18:08   Link #8234
Qilin
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You answered that question yourself.
Huh. You got me there.

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That is the reason they are getting flak, cause they are excessive in treating their members.
Even then they don't treat everyone equally given with what happened with Sting and his loss, he gets off alot easier than Yukino.

Don't think anyone is saying Yukino shouldn't have been kicked out for losing if thats how Sabertooth handles that then fine but how they did it is what they get flak for.
And I don't particularly see it as saying Sabertooth is EVIL, just a bunch of ass jerks, much like Phantom Lord.

I could probably say some of this does stem from preconceived notions on what a guild "should be" but you expect a offically recognized guild to act better.
They don't need to be all chummy or knights in white armour but at least decent people.
To clarify, when I said that her punishment was excessive, I was talking about my initial emotional response to it. I can understand that everyone else reacted in a similar fashion, hence my mistake.

But I realized that it was their guild's way of doing things. I'm sure everyone in that guild had already come to accept the guild's philosophy and culture, so they should already know the consequences that go with failure. If they were in the guild against their will it would be an entirely different matter, but I see no signs of that being the case as of yet. As such, they already have their own set off rules to follow, so they don't need some other guild muscling in and telling them how they should do things. Compare this with people of different religions trying to convert each other.

Let's look at it this way, Sabertooth is considered to be the strongest guild, so its pride mandates that it should maintain this title indefinitely. From a practical standpoint, Yukino's punishment serves as a deterrent for anyone who should fail to meet the guild's expectations. It's a primitive tactic, but often an effective one.

Don't forget that Sting is part of the guild's "strongest five", so he would obviously deserve preferential treatment over Yukino, who is just a replacement member, especially given the guild's Darwinist ideals. Also, the main reason for Yukino's punishment was not because she lost, but rather because she gambled her life and still lost. Those are two different things.
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Old 2012-05-13, 18:58   Link #8235
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
Huh. You got me there.


To clarify, when I said that her punishment was excessive, I was talking about my initial emotional response to it. I can understand that everyone else reacted in a similar fashion, hence my mistake.

But I realized that it was their guild's way of doing things. I'm sure everyone in that guild had already come to accept the guild's philosophy and culture, so they should already know the consequences that go with failure. If they were in the guild against their will it would be an entirely different matter, but I see no signs of that being the case as of yet. As such, they already have their own set off rules to follow, so they don't need some other guild muscling in and telling them how they should do things. Compare this with people of different religions trying to convert each other.

Let's look at it this way, Sabertooth is considered to be the strongest guild, so its pride mandates that it should maintain this title indefinitely. From a practical standpoint, Yukino's punishment serves as a deterrent for anyone who should fail to meet the guild's expectations. It's a primitive tactic, but often an effective one.

Don't forget that Sting is part of the guild's "strongest five", so he would obviously deserve preferential treatment over Yukino, who is just a replacement member, especially given the guild's Darwinist ideals. Also, the main reason for Yukino's punishment was not because she lost, but rather because she gambled her life and still lost. Those are two different things.
As was said before, the problem people have with Yukino getting kicked out isn't that she was kicked out, but the humiliation they made her go through.

Each guild has their own laws, it is perfectly fine. If she had just received a gkick for losing I wouldn't bat and eyelash, hell I've been and know of plenty of sports teams that do that...you fail and your out and that's how they keep the teams strong (supposedly).

But the big problem lays in the pure humiliation they put her through, it's against human rights and just...basic decency. No matter the reason, making the girl strip like that in front of a room full of men, in front of the guild she viewed so highly is just despicable.
And did she really know how the guild really worked? Did she really know that the master was capable of doing that? That the other guild members would standby doing nothing?
Remember that Yukino said she only joined the guild recently. Before joining she likely wouldn't have heard about things like that happening because it's just not something they would show the public (at best she probably would have heard about someone being kicked for failing a mission or something). And since she joined only recently, again, at best she probably only saw someone kicked without the humiliation. Look at the reactions of the so called strongest 5, even they were not pleased with how extreme their master was in dealing with Yukino.
You say she knew what she was getting herself into...but you don't know that for sure. She most likely just viewed Sabertooth as a great and strong guild, idolizing it without knowing how evil (lack of a better word) they can be (some members at least)
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Old 2012-05-13, 19:12   Link #8236
Qilin
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
As was said before, the problem people have with Yukino getting kicked out isn't that she was kicked out, but the humiliation they made her go through.

Each guild has their own laws, it is perfectly fine. If she had just received a gkick for losing I wouldn't bat and eyelash, hell I've been and know of plenty of sports teams that do that...you fail and your out and that's how they keep the teams strong (supposedly).

But the big problem lays in the pure humiliation they put her through, it's against human rights and just...basic decency. No matter the reason, making the girl strip like that in front of a room full of men, in front of the guild she viewed so highly is just despicable.
See, that's moral relativity talking right there. We're using our own value systems to judge something that doesn't necessarily have the same values. Mind you, I completely understand everyone's disgusted reactions at it, but personally, I hate anyone who tries to impose their value system onto other people. The only thing that should be able to change it is personal decision and revelation. Needless to say, using force is out of the question.

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And did she really know how the guild really worked? Did she really know that the master was capable of doing that? That the other guild members would standby doing nothing?

Remember that Yukino said she only joined the guild recently. Before joining she likely wouldn't have heard about things like that happening because it's just not something they would show the public (at best she probably would have heard about someone being kicked for failing a mission or something). And since she joined only recently, again, at best she probably only saw someone kicked without the humiliation.
You say she knew what she was getting herself into...but you don't know that for sure. She most likely just viewed Sabertooth as a great and strong guild, idolizing it without knowing how evil (lack of a better word) they can be (some members at least)
I don't know. I definitely have a few things to say about anyone who joins a guild without even being aware of its goals and philosophies. I can accept it if she was maybe tricked or forced, but if you're arguing that she was downright ignorant, she deserved what she got.

Once again, I reiterate that all my statements were made under the assumption that Yukino joined and stayed at the guild of her own free will.
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Old 2012-05-13, 19:43   Link #8237
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See, that's moral relativity talking right there. We're using our own value systems to judge something that doesn't necessarily have the same values. Mind you, I completely understand everyone's disgusted reactions at it, but personally, I hate anyone who tries to impose their value system onto other people. The only thing that should be able to change it is personal decision and revelation. Needless to say, using force is out of the question.
I have a simple answer to this. Stripping in front of a large group of people clearly goes against what Yukino, the victim, views as right (judging by how it affected her). It also looked like others in sabertooth shared the same thought (Sting's comment on how their master was too extreme for example).
Might be taking a bit extreme, but let's take a rapist. Let's say he was raised in an environment where he ended up believing that rape was a good thing and morally correct. His victims think otherwise, they are abused and forced to do something they viewed as wrong. Just because the rapist views it as right, should he go unpunished?
You might say that Yukino wasn't forced to strip, she could have walked away. But is that really true? Not everyone is strong willed enough to handle such a situation. She was distraught by her loss already and told by an intimidating man to strip in front of a room full of people she seemed to respect, but no one even tried to help her, they just stared at her. A room of people staring at you and after you believe to have let them down. Can you imagine the pressure that she was under?

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I don't know. I definitely have a few things to say about anyone who joins a guild without even being aware of its goals and philosophies. I can accept it if she was maybe tricked or forced, but if you're arguing that she was downright ignorant, she deserved what she got.

Once again, I reiterate that all my statements were made under the assumption that Yukino joined and stayed at the guild of her own free will.
Look at Lucy, she joined FT after only hearing about it and seeing them party a bit (you could say she also had Natsu as an example but she already wanted to join before meeting him). FT could have been a happy go lucky guild on the outside but have very dirty dealings in the background.

If you idolize something, you tend to ignore its faults. She idolized ST, she probably didn't know about how extreme the master could be and the little bad rumors here and there could have easily be dismissed. Do you believe ST would get the overwhelming support of the people in the tournament if Yukino's humiliating scene was shown to everyone? Certainly not.
Is it her fault for joining the guild without knowing their true philosophy (assuming she didn't and I doubt very much she did) and extreme punishments? It could be argued that...yes it is. Then again you can't really know how the guild truly works away from the public eye until you actually join them. Kinda like, you may be dating someone for a while, but you never know that person's true habits at home until you move in together. Many relationships end at this point because of how different and incompatible people can be when living together (when away from the public eye)
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Old 2012-05-13, 20:27   Link #8238
Qilin
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I have a simple answer to this. Stripping in front of a large group of people clearly goes against what Yukino, the victim, views as right (judging by how it affected her). It also looked like others in sabertooth shared the same thought (Sting's comment on how their master was too extreme for example).
Ideally, being in the same guild means having the same philosophy and abiding by the same rules as every other member. That is an assumption I'm making. As such, this is something she should have been prepared for right from the start.

I personally disagree with Sabertooth as much as everyone else, but Natsu's reaction struck me as even more distasteful.
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Might be taking a bit extreme, but let's take a rapist. Let's say he was raised in an environment where he ended up believing that rape was a good thing and morally correct. His victims think otherwise, they are abused and forced to do something they viewed as wrong. Just because the rapist views it as right, should he go unpunished?
Don't confuse morality with ethics. Morality refers to individual values and ethics refers to society values.

Rape is wrong because it is stipulated by society's laws. Laws are created with the survival of society in mind, and rape poses a threat to the stability of society. If anyone doesn't agree with a society's ethics, they are free to leave it whenever they wish, or maybe change it from the inside. Choosing to stay means you have to follow its rules.

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Look at Lucy, she joined FT after only hearing about it and seeing them party a bit (you could say she also had Natsu as an example but she already wanted to join before meeting him). FT could have been a happy go lucky guild on the outside but have very dirty dealings in the background.

If you idolize something, you tend to ignore its faults. She idolized ST, she probably didn't know about how extreme the master could be and the little bad rumors here and there could have easily be dismissed. Do you believe ST would get the overwhelming support of the people in the tournament if Yukino's humiliating scene was shown to everyone? Certainly not.
Is it her fault for joining the guild without knowing their true philosophy (assuming she didn't and I doubt very much she did) and extreme punishments? It could be argued that...yes it is. Then again you can't really know how the guild truly works away from the public eye until you actually join them. Kinda like, you may be dating someone for a while, but you never know that person's true habits at home until you move in together. Many relationships end at this point because of how different and incompatible people can be when living together (when away from the public eye)
Well, I'm willing to concede this argument IF I can find that Sabertooth was in the habit of admitting members without orienting them of the guild's ideals and philosophy. As it stands, joining any organization without full knowledge of what it wants to achieve and how it does so just isn't smart. That's the thing. I hardly find it plausible that Yukino wouldn't already be wise to the guild's true face after being admitted into the guild. There might have been some childish admiration somewhere, but it should have gone once she joined the guild.

Let me put it this way: Would you join a religion you didn't believe in? If you find yourself not believing in the religion anymore, why would you still affiliate yourself with it (assuming no force is used)?

While not really related, FT is an easy guild to figure out. What about any person who joins FT thinking that they're a bunch of brutes who seek nothing more than destruction? Are you saying such a character wouldn't be at fault for being ignorant?
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:14   Link #8239
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OT, but i think I should stick with this forum. The people here seem nicer overall.
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:36   Link #8240
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Ideally, being in the same guild means having the same philosophy and abiding by the same rules as every other member. That is an assumption I'm making. As such, this is something she should have been prepared for right from the start.
And she apparently thought she was prepared, only for Gemma to go to an apparently unheard of extreme on her.

Quote:
Well, I'm willing to concede this argument IF I can find that Sabertooth was in the habit of admitting members without orienting them of the guild's ideals and philosophy. As it stands, joining any organization without full knowledge of what it wants to achieve and how it does so just isn't smart. That's the thing. I hardly find it plausible that Yukino wouldn't already be wise to the guild's true face after being admitted into the guild. There might have been some childish admiration somewhere, but it should have gone once she joined the guild.
The thing is, it's one thing to be told that failure isn't tolerated, is punished, and can result in being expelled from the guild. It's another to be given an extremely humiliating punishment for failure, then be thrown out on top of it. Sting thought what happened to Yukino was extreme, and it had Rogue questioning whether this was what a guild was supposed to be like. Their reactions suggest that neither being force to strip before the guild, nor being expelled for the first failure, is a typical, ordinary thing at Sabertooth. So they're unlikely to be telling new members they're orienting that they'll be striped naked and expelled from the guild the first time they screw up.

So Yukino expected punishment, knew expulsion was one of the possible punishments. She did not expect to be expelled for a first offense, nor was she prepared for how deliberately degrading the punishment was. Or the way Gemma handed out said punishment as though he wasn't going to expel her, then went ahead and expelled her.
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