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Old 2012-05-10, 09:18   Link #41
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Isn't Manda dead?
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Old 2012-05-10, 09:32   Link #42
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Old 2012-05-10, 13:21   Link #43
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pretty good chapter, thank god we finally got back to the fight. i dont know if itachi is out of this fight for good now( i doubt it) but i saw this coming a mile away as far as sasuke being the one to fight and take down kabuto. think about it, most of the fight has been itachi imparting life lessons to sasuke, most likely to get him where kish wants him. i have no doubt sasuke will get the big fight with kabuto. although the sasuke haters dont want to hear this... guess what itachi is not the first or second main character of this manga. naruto and sasuke are, and if there is to be forgiveness for sasuke. well taking out kabuto and ending edo tensei is how its gonna most likely happen. dont misunderstand me i like itachi but i know at the end of the day sasuke is going to have to surpass him. i know the haters dont like that but its gonna happen.
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Old 2012-05-10, 13:52   Link #44
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Your very example shows how different that is. Had Raikage been immune he wouldn't have lost his hand.
There's a big difference in being caught by fire or deliberately hitting the fire.

If Kabuto's snake eye makes him immune to genjutsu then he is immune to it. I don't see what's there to argue about this, it has been clearly shown by the manga.

At least now that we know how insanely strong Kabuto has become it is not a plot hole any more that Tobi didn't try to kill him and more importantly that he was hiding EMS-Sasuke from Kabuto while back at the kage summit he didn't really care about the risk of Sasuke fighting 5 kage at the same time. Sure there is the risk because Kabuto has all those Edo Tensei, but if himself were weak then someone who can teleport himself and even Sasuke could easily bypass the zombies defending Kabuto and attack him directly. On the other hand Kabuto escaping from the Turtle-island seems more like a plot hole, because he could have summoned there a dozen edo-tensei and then himself go into sage mode and easily capture the 8 and 9 tails. Kabuto escaping from that island was one reason why i couldn't believe that he became so strong.
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Old 2012-05-10, 15:17   Link #45
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This was a pretty dull chapter. Nothing happened. The least I can say is, at least they got back to the fighting. But really a waste of a chapter.
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Old 2012-05-10, 17:47   Link #46
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On the other hand Kabuto escaping from the Turtle-island seems more like a plot hole, because he could have summoned there a dozen edo-tensei and then himself go into sage mode and easily capture the 8 and 9 tails. Kabuto escaping from that island was one reason why i couldn't believe that he became so strong.
you're assuming kabuto wants the 8 and 9 tails captured. from what I can tell he doesn't like tobi or sasuke and is plotting against them and he actually kind of likes/respects naruto. i think kabuto only wanted yamato on that island for the first's dna and that's exactly what he got. so mission success =)
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Old 2012-05-10, 18:11   Link #47
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you're assuming kabuto wants the 8 and 9 tails captured. from what I can tell he doesn't like tobi or sasuke and is plotting against them and he actually kind of likes/respects naruto. i think kabuto only wanted yamato on that island for the first's dna and that's exactly what he got. so mission success =)
That's why he tried to kill them using Nagato? He was even happy how lucky he is, until Itachi ruined his day.
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Old 2012-05-10, 19:09   Link #48
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pretty good chapter, thank god we finally got back to the fight. i dont know if itachi is out of this fight for good now( i doubt it) but i saw this coming a mile away as far as sasuke being the one to fight and take down kabuto. think about it, most of the fight has been itachi imparting life lessons to sasuke, most likely to get him where kish wants him. i have no doubt sasuke will get the big fight with kabuto. although the sasuke haters dont want to hear this... guess what itachi is not the first or second main character of this manga. naruto and sasuke are, and if there is to be forgiveness for sasuke. well taking out kabuto and ending edo tensei is how its gonna most likely happen. dont misunderstand me i like itachi but i know at the end of the day sasuke is going to have to surpass him. i know the haters dont like that but its gonna happen.
This is Naruto. Itachi, like Minato, will never be shown up and defeated in a humiliating way like this. Kabuto is probably already trapped in Izanami.
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Old 2012-05-11, 07:36   Link #49
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If I remember correctly Kabuto ran from turtle more for Naruto sake than anything else, I say one of its goal was to put doubt into Madara.

Kabuto always shown some sentiment towards Naruto
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Old 2012-05-11, 09:02   Link #50
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There's a big difference in being caught by fire or deliberately hitting the fire.
That's completely irrelevant to the point being made.
To be immune to something is an absolute, to be able to dodge or avoid something is not. Kabuto, or the Raikage in your previous example, weren't immune to their attacks, they can avoid their effects only in a particular set of circumstances. If those parameters change then all bets are off and they become just as susceptible as anyone else precisely because they aren't immune to the attacks in question.
The Raikage's speed allowed him to bypass Sasuke's gaze which allowed him to dodge Amaterasu, but since he was however not immune to those flames, Sasuke's Kagutsuchi made in turn this vaunted speed meaningless.
Similarly Kabuto's eyes cap + Sage-sensing ability allow him to bypass eye contact which allow him to avoid sight-Genjutsu but since he's not immune to Genjutsu he's still susceptible to fall prey to mind control if the Uchiha brothers pull the rug out from under him.


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At least now that we know how insanely strong Kabuto has become it is not a plot hole any more that Tobi didn't try to kill him and more importantly that he was hiding EMS-Sasuke from Kabuto while back at the kage summit he didn't really care about the risk of Sasuke fighting 5 kage at the same time.
That never was a plothole, Tobi could take on Kabuto but that would have taken a terrible token on his own forces. There was nothing to gain from a conflict between them at the time. It's the same reason why Kabuto gave up the secret of Edo-Tensei to Tobi, they both know that eventually one of them will have to kill the other but it's too dangerous and counter-productive just yet.

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Sure there is the risk because Kabuto has all those Edo Tensei, but if himself were weak then someone who can teleport himself and even Sasuke could easily bypass the zombies defending Kabuto and attack him directly. On the other hand Kabuto escaping from the Turtle-island seems more like a plot hole, because he could have summoned there a dozen edo-tensei and then himself go into sage mode and easily capture the 8 and 9 tails. Kabuto escaping from that island was one reason why i couldn't believe that he became so strong.
And then what? With the 8 and 9 tails in his possession before the war started he would instantly become a target for Tobi and the Alliance before they weakened each others. As it is he's screwing them both until their respective fighting forces are more easily manageable.
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Old 2012-05-11, 11:20   Link #51
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they can avoid their effects only in a particular set of circumstances.
Which is also true for being able to use MS/EMS jutsu, first you need enough chakra and then you have to activate your MS/EMS eyes. Also if you overuse your eyes then you can't use them any more for some period of time or even go blind. For every existing jutsu there are some set of circumstances that are needed, so by your definition of "immunity" there is no ninja who has immunity against anything. Nobody is immune to a simple kunai, you just need to mess him up to a state where he can't use any of his special abilities. I was referring to this battle when i said "immunity", not to some hypothetical where Kabuto for some reason doesn't use his new abilities.

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Similarly Kabuto's eyes cap + Sage-sensing ability allow him to bypass eye contact which allow him to avoid sight-Genjutsu but since he's not immune to Genjutsu he's still susceptible to fall prey to mind control if the Uchiha brothers pull the rug out from under him.
The manga tells us about these "absolute defenses", but of course you can kill anyone with a simple kunai if you are able to destroy his defense with another jutsu, but that doesn't mean that he is not immune to a kunai in the sense that i used the word, which is to be (as the manga tells us) an "absolute defense". Kabuto in this battle is immune to sharingan genjutsu just as much as he is immune to a kunai, but that just means that Itachi has to remove or bypass his special eye caps with another jutsu and then use tsukiyomi or to beat him in a different way.

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That never was a plothole, Tobi could take on Kabuto but that would have taken a terrible token on his own forces.
Which means he was aware how strong Kabuto is, but Kabuto was not a sage but just as strong as he was previously then Tobi could have killed him before he can begin messing around with Edo-Tensei. We are talking about a guy who wants to wage war against the whole ninja world and then we see him being forced to make a deal one ordinary jounin level guy. It makes much more sense when we know that Kabuto is above kage level now. If it was not for the extremely unlikely event that Itachi managed to free himself from Kabuto's control then by now Kabuto probably would have captured both Naruto and Sasuke. And since Kabuto made the deal for Sasuke what would Tobi have to offer?

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And then what? With the 8 and 9 tails in his possession before the war started he would instantly become a target for Tobi and the Alliance before they weakened each others. As it is he's screwing them both until their respective fighting forces are more easily manageable.
Looking at the actual war i got the impression that Kabuto sacrificing all his Edo-Tensei ninja was a stupid thing, while he was wasting his powerful zombie army Tobi was just waiting for the opportunity to capture Naruto and Bee. If he completely stayed out of the war he could have used his Edo-Tensei army against whoever came after him. So he could have captured them on the Turtle-island and then ran away, the alliance was already looking for Tobi because the war was already started so Tobi was already weakened by that war. And Kabuto tried to capture Naruto and Bee anyway, using Nagato and Itachi at a time when he already lost a lot of his zombie army. I think the war weakened Kabuto more than Tobi. Kabuto is now an arrogant guy who thinks that he alone (without any of his zombies) is stronger than Itachi and Sasuke combined. Considering that, it's hard to believe that he is carefully plotting a situation where Madara and the alliance weaken each other.
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Old 2012-05-11, 19:30   Link #52
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Which is also true for being able to use MS/EMS jutsu, first you need enough chakra and then you have to activate your MS/EMS eyes. Also if you overuse your eyes then you can't use them any more for some period of time or even go blind. For every existing jutsu there are some set of circumstances that are needed, so by your definition of "immunity" there is no ninja who has immunity against anything. Nobody is immune to a simple kunai, you just need to mess him up to a state where he can't use any of his special abilities. I was referring to this battle when i said "immunity", not to some hypothetical where Kabuto for some reason doesn't use his new abilities.
So that was mostly rambling but the end of this paragraph is worthwhile. True immunity is indeed something very rare. It is completely useless to use sight or hearing based Genjutsu against a blind/deaf man or more generally to use Genjutsu against Sasori's puppets who don't even have a brain. That's actual immunity. There are also a few characters against whom kunai means virtually nothing, the 3rd Raikage or Suigetsu to some extent for example, the state of their bodies means a kunai cannot possibly damage them.
My point is not about some hypothetical scenario it's about the definition of the word. If you allow me this analogy, you very well may have a condom which will offer you some protection but it will not make you immune to AIDS in any case.

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Which means he was aware how strong Kabuto is, but Kabuto was not a sage but just as strong as he was previously then Tobi could have killed him before he can begin messing around with Edo-Tensei. We are talking about a guy who wants to wage war against the whole ninja world and then we see him being forced to make a deal one ordinary jounin level guy.
No it doesn't. Tobi didn't see one ordinary jounin level guy, or rather yes he did and he attacked him right away... And then saw that this so called ordinary jounin had the Akatsuki zombie squad + Madara had his beck and call.
For all of Kabuto's impressive display of power, it is completely inconsequential compared to his Edo-Tensei army. What made Tobi change his mind wasn't Kabuto's "personal" strength -whether he knew its depth or not-, it was the his Edo-Tensei collection.

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Looking at the actual war i got the impression that Kabuto sacrificing all his Edo-Tensei ninja was a stupid thing, while he was wasting his powerful zombie army Tobi was just waiting for the opportunity to capture Naruto and Bee. If he completely stayed out of the war he could have used his Edo-Tensei army against whoever came after him. So he could have captured them on the Turtle-island and then ran away, the alliance was already looking for Tobi because the war was already started so Tobi was already weakened by that war. And Kabuto tried to capture Naruto and Bee anyway, using Nagato and Itachi at a time when he already lost a lot of his zombie army. I think the war weakened Kabuto more than Tobi. Kabuto is now an arrogant guy who thinks that he alone (without any of his zombies) is stronger than Itachi and Sasuke combined. Considering that, it's hard to believe that he is carefully plotting a situation where Madara and the alliance weaken each other.
Had Kabuto stayed completely out of the war Tobi would have come after Naruto himself while his Zetsu army could have attacked the Alliance by surprise (remember it was Kabuto who purposely gave them the location of Tobi's base). If not for Kabuto's meddling, Tobi would have probably already won.
To capture the 2 Jinchuuriki before the war started meant no gain for him and the immediate wrath of both Tobi and the Alliance who would have sent their entire forces against him.

Right now the Zetsus, Alliance and Edos are about done with the notable exception of Madara. Without Itachi's unforeseeable brainwash Kabuto would have taken the 2 Jinchuuriki unbeknownst to Tobi (or so Kabuto thought since he doesn't know about the Zetsu spores hidden inside him (or does he?)) before he lost his strongest cards. Even then he still has Edo-Madara who can -litteraly- level the playing field on his own whereas his opponents have exhausted nearly all their resources.
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Old 2012-05-12, 04:47   Link #53
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My point is not about some hypothetical scenario it's about the definition of the word. If you allow me this analogy, you very well may have a condom which will offer you some protection but it will not make you immune to AIDS in any case.
Now you are even defining the meaning of the word "immune" or something like that, that has nothing to do with what my initial post to which you replied. Just to remind myself and you:
"now we know that Kabuto is so strong that he can easly stand against all known MS jutsu including any already known genjutsu"
""working his way around them" is practically the same as being immune to those."
So first thing is: based on this fight (and we can have no other facts than this fight) the ones who had difficulty are the Uchiha brothers and not Kabuto. In a 1on1 fight both of them would have already lost. They keep saving each other.
The other thing: i didn't say immune, i compared this to imunity, using the word "practically" which here means this battle and not any other situation which one my think of.

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What made Tobi change his mind wasn't Kabuto's "personal" strength -whether he knew its depth or not-, it was the his Edo-Tensei collection.
The manga doesn't say so, your guess is just as good as mine. But i agree that Tobi could realized that both the Edo-Tensei army and Kabuto's ability to power up the Zetsu-army were very valueable to him. On the other hand Tobi took a huge risk by not killing Kabuto, because he knows Kabuto will betray him, and if it happens at a critical time then he can lose everything because of that. If it was not for Itachi right now Sasuke would be already taken by Kabuto.

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Had Kabuto stayed completely out of the war Tobi would have come after Naruto himself while his Zetsu army could have attacked the Alliance by surprise (remember it was Kabuto who purposely gave them the location of Tobi's base). If not for Kabuto's meddling, Tobi would have probably already won.
I can have just as good assumptions for that scenario. If not for Kabuto Tobi's Zetsu-army would be much weaker. Even this upgraded Zetsu army was pathetic, i complained about this back then: it seemed that it were only Kabuto's Edo Tensei zombies that mattered in the war, the Zetsus were always in some kind of support role. If Tobi went to the Turtle-island he would have to fight a lot of people, Oonoki is one of the strongest kages, and there were other strong guys there. The kages could also teleport there, as they did teleport to Edo-Madara. Kyuubi could have helped Naruto sooner. A surprise attack just means more noname-ninja and civilian casualites, but that would be just a non-upgraded Zetsu army. Tobi wouldn't have collected a little part of 9-tails chakra.

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To capture the 2 Jinchuuriki before the war started meant no gain for him and the immediate wrath of both Tobi and the Alliance who would have sent their entire forces against him.
The war was already started, the alliance would have thought that it was Tobi, and even if they didn't they would still use most of their forces to find and kill Tobi. Kabuto would only have to hide and wait until they are done with Tobi.

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whereas his opponents have exhausted nearly all their resources.
So did Kabuto, most of his impressive zombie army is gone. Considering their performance in this war and that a zombie army can be hidden perfectly (by unsummoning them) and doesn't require any repairing or maintenance, compared to the Zetsu-army that Madara lost, i think Kabuto's loss is greater than Madara's.
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Old 2012-05-12, 06:25   Link #54
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Now you are even defining the meaning of the word "immune" or something like that, that has nothing to do with what my initial post to which you replied. Just to remind myself and you:
"now we know that Kabuto is so strong that he can easly stand against all known MS jutsu including any already known genjutsu"
""working his way around them" is practically the same as being immune to those."
So first thing is: based on this fight (and we can have no other facts than this fight) the ones who had difficulty are the Uchiha brothers and not Kabuto. In a 1on1 fight both of them would have already lost. They keep saving each other.
The other thing: i didn't say immune, i compared this to imunity, using the word "practically" which here means this battle and not any other situation which one my think of.
Now this becomes stupid, I do not define the meaning of the word, the dictionary does that and you might want to take a look at it because "practically" doesn't mean what you seem to think it does either.
Your original claim was that Kabuto had become so powerful that he could stand against all MS jutsu and that he was practically immune to them and you then came with the particulary ill chosen example of the 4th Raikage being immune to Amaterasu. That is blatantly false, Kabuto doesn't have the strength to survive a hit from the sword of Totsuka nor can his body shrug off a Kagutsuchi sword to name two.
Itachi and Sasuke are completely on the defensive waiting for Izanami to be ready not because their attacks wouldn't work on Kabuto but because landing a killing blow on him goes against their purpose for being here. What make Kabuto safe from most of their offensive power isn't his own strength, it's the fact they don't want to kill him.

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The manga doesn't say so, your guess is just as good as mine. But i agree that Tobi could realized that both the Edo-Tensei army and Kabuto's ability to power up the Zetsu-army were very valueable to him. On the other hand Tobi took a huge risk by not killing Kabuto, because he knows Kabuto will betray him, and if it happens at a critical time then he can lose everything because of that. If it was not for Itachi right now Sasuke would be already taken by Kabuto.
Yes it does. When Tobi met Kabuto his first move was to attack him, the first thing that gave him pause was the sight of the undead Akatsuki and what definitively changed his mind was Edo-Madara's coffin. Tobi openly explained why he would agree to a truce for the time being : open conflict between them meant too much damage to his fighting force before the war had began. There was two entire chapters devoted to this maybe you missed tem.
Oh and without Itachi Sasuke wouldn't be there in the first place so the point is moot.

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I can have just as good assumptions for that scenario. If not for Kabuto Tobi's Zetsu-army would be much weaker. Even this upgraded Zetsu army was pathetic, i complained about this back then: it seemed that it were only Kabuto's Edo Tensei zombies that mattered in the war, the Zetsus were always in some kind of support role. If Tobi went to the Turtle-island he would have to fight a lot of people, Oonoki is one of the strongest kages, and there were other strong guys there. The kages could also teleport there, as they did teleport to Edo-Madara. Kyuubi could have helped Naruto sooner. A surprise attack just means more noname-ninja and civilian casualites, but that would be just a non-upgraded Zetsu army. Tobi wouldn't have collected a little part of 9-tails chakra.
You can make assumptions yes, but I don't find them to be just as good, let's enumerate a few reasons why :
  • Remove Kabuto from the equation and the first time the Alliance hears about the existence of a Zetsu army is when they emerge from the ground in a surprise attack
  • The manga focused on named Edo (and nearly all of them were taken out without much casualty) of course but a good part of 40 thousands Alliance troups died off screen against the 100k Zetsus.
  • If Tobi takes on Naruto immediately, Naruto can't go on the battlefield and the Alliance is powerless against the disguised Zetsus at night
  • The whole 4th world war is nothing but a diversion anyway, Tobi going to the Turtle-island doesn't have to fight a lot of people, he'd just teleport there before Oonoki even arrived and way before Naruto learned how to use Kyubi-mode, how to use his new-found speed and before being in speaking term with the Kyubi. The only thing Tobi required to win and conquer the world was to litteraly lay his hand on Naruto and Bee and at this point Naruto wasn't powerful enough to stop that from happening.

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The war was already started, the alliance would have thought that it was Tobi, and even if they didn't they would still use most of their forces to find and kill Tobi. Kabuto would only have to hide and wait until they are done with Tobi.
The Alliance knew nothing of Tobi's location before Kabuto gave it to them and the location itself means nothing if Tobi decides he doesn't have to bother with them since they don't have the Jinchuuriki anymore. He simply goes after Kabuto with the entire Zetsu army travelling underground. Thinking about it 'd have probably prefered that, a three-way battle could have been more entertaining.

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So did Kabuto, most of his impressive zombie army is gone. Considering their performance in this war and that a zombie army can be hidden perfectly (by unsummoning them) and doesn't require any repairing or maintenance, compared to the Zetsu-army that Madara lost, i think Kabuto's loss is greater than Madara's.
Greater than Tobi's you mean and without Edo-Madara I'd agree and in fact quantitatively speaking you're correct but as long as his trump card is available to him Kabuto is still in a position of strength.
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Old 2012-05-12, 10:52   Link #55
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the particulary ill chosen example of the 4th Raikage being immune to Amaterasu.
We will probably never agree on that one. In my interpretation if i willingly put my hand into some camp fire that doesn't mean that it can kill me The raikage just did an insane thing out of rage.

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That is blatantly false, Kabuto doesn't have the strength to survive a hit from the sword of Totsuka nor can his body shrug off a Kagutsuchi sword to name two.
The totsuka sword is the only one that has a good chance, but even then Kabuto has his speed and other abilities to dodge it, and also Kabuto knows about that sword because Nagato was beaten by it when he was under Kabuto's control, Kabuto is not an idiot to just let it happen again. As for the kagutsuchi it's hard to tell since kabuto has now both Karin's and Juugo's powers to regenerate and also can turn himself into water, can probably do Orochimaru's rebirth from his own mouth as Sasuke could also do it and who knows what else gives him the snake-sage mode and other dna that he included into himself.

Looking at this fight so far we see that Kabuto just needs to hit with his moves before Sasuke and Itachi can hit with their MS, the best defense is offense.


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What make Kabuto safe from most of their offensive power isn't his own strength, it's the fact they don't want to kill him.
In case of Itachi he would have a good chance of beating Kabuto alone, but judging from this fight Sasuke would be beaten no matter what MS jutsu he uses. I mean from the known ones, maybe he has some yet unknown with his new EMS.

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open conflict between them meant too much damage to his fighting force before the war had began. There was two entire chapters devoted to this maybe you missed tem.
Maybe you missed the part in my original post where i said that it seemed like a plot hole to me because of how i interpreted the events and not how you or others interpret it. In my interpretation Tobi did have the power to kill a Kabuto that is not a sage (since i assumed that Kabuto's strength is at most on Orochi's level) without having to fight against Edo-Tesei zombies. If he killed Kabuto then nobody would ever summon Edo-Madara or any other zombie and Tobi's original plan would have proceeded "just as planned". And we know Tobi can use izanagi to be in godmode, he could have used that against Kabuto. So my view of all that was that the logical thing to do after Kabuto revealed even Edo-Madara would be to kill him as soon as he can, to prevent any further damage to his plan. And if we go by your reasoning about how succesful Kabuto is in letting Tobi and the alliance beat each other to death then it's very clear that Tobi should have killed Kabuto ASAP.

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Oh and without Itachi Sasuke wouldn't be there in the first place so the point is moot.
The only reason Tobi could not deploy Sasuke on the battlefield was Kabuto. But at the moment Sasuke broke free Tobi has lost control of him, and Sasuke went to a place where Kabuto's Edo-Tensei zombies were patrolling. It was just a matter of time before Sasuke is discovered by Kabuto. And at this time Tobi is busy fighting Naruto and the whole alliance is converging on his place, doesn't seem like a good time keep track of what Sasuke and Kabuto are doing.

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[*]Remove Kabuto from the equation and the first time the Alliance hears about the existence of a Zetsu army is when they emerge from the ground in a surprise attack
The alliance has a lot of sensory ninja, can't they sense an army of 100,000 approaching? But i agree that the surprise factor would help Tobi greatly, but i weighted that with the weakness factor of not being upgraded by Kabuto.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
[*]The manga focused on named Edo (and nearly all of them were taken out without much casualty) of course but a good part of 40 thousands Alliance troups died off screen against the 100k Zetsus.
I think many of them died directly from super-attacks of some kage level zombies, the last example being Edo-Madara's meteor. The other important factor is that if the zombies keep the strongest alliance ninja busy then the zetsus can attack the weaker ones. Whenever Zetsus attacked on their own some named strong characters they are crushed too easily. I think this may also be Kishimoto's failure of showing that the Zetsu's are not useless, because he concentrated too much on the zombies, maybe the anime can fix that with some filllers.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
[*]If Tobi takes on Naruto immediately, Naruto can't go on the battlefield and the Alliance is powerless against the disguised Zetsus at night
From what i have seen, if we took out the zombies and Kabuto's zetsu-upgrade from the equation it seemed like the zetsus would be killed before the night falls, which means they would be useful only as a distraction while Madara captures Naruto and Bee. But if your first point (surprise attack) worked well then there would be enough zetsus surviving until the night.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
[*]The whole 4th world war is nothing but a diversion anyway, Tobi going to the Turtle-island doesn't have to fight a lot of people, he'd just teleport there before Oonoki even arrived and way before Naruto learned how to use Kyubi-mode, how to use his new-found speed and before being in speaking term with the Kyubi. The only thing Tobi required to win and conquer the world was to litteraly lay his hand on Naruto and Bee and at this point Naruto wasn't powerful enough to stop that from happening.
Then why didn't he take Naruto from the wooden house in the iron country? Only Kakashi and Yamato were guarding him. Tobi was just sitting in the window and talking. But i guess i shouldn't mention this example, the plot just magically allows for such strange things
He couldn't just teleport, he didn't know the exact location, Kabuto found the location using his snakes and who knows what else to sense where it is. So there was enough time for Oonoki to arrive, and if the plot went that way then of course the kages would have also teleported there to protect Naruto.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The Alliance knew nothing of Tobi's location before Kabuto gave it to them and the location itself means nothing if Tobi decides he doesn't have to bother with them since they don't have the Jinchuuriki anymore. He simply goes after Kabuto with the entire Zetsu army travelling underground. Thinking about it 'd have probably prefered that, a three-way battle could have been more entertaining.
But why would Tobi know Kabuto's location? Kabuto can easily hide for as long as he wants, he can unsummon his zombie army, unlike madara who can't hide his zetsu army that easily if the alliance is actively searching for it. Kabuto could even reveal himself to Tobi just to drag him towards the alliance. But my main point is that if Kabuto didn't reveal himself to the alliance and Tobi then he could have just waited until the best opportunity and then strike the winning side or both sides. But i guess i shouldn't complain about that, since Tobi did the same thing after decades of successful hiding he revealed himself instead of trying to capture Naruto and Bee with a surprise attack and teleporting away. The terrorist tactic would have suited much better someone with Tobi's abilities, but the manga had to dumb him down in order to make him lose
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Old 2012-05-12, 13:24   Link #56
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Genjutsu wasn't said to be the most dangerous form of Genjutsu (though Shika once explained it's the worse to deal with because there is not much you can do to stop it from long distance) so yes there is no shame getting caught in it.
I was actually basing that statement about Sound Genjutsu on what Pa Frog said to Jiraiya. Being almost impossible to avoid is why it is considered the most dangerous.

But anyway, looking at the chapter again showed Kabuto's snakes had replaced Tayuya's chains. So it was clearly Kabuto's work and spin on the jutsu. But there was still a huge outcry from Itachi fans on other forums on how he could get caught in such a genjustu.
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Old 2012-05-12, 17:35   Link #57
Sasheks
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We will probably never agree on that one. In my interpretation if i willingly put my hand into some camp fire that doesn't mean that it can kill me The raikage just did an insane thing out of rage.
Exactly...except that Raikage put his hand in Ammaterasu - the inextinguishable black flames, not some camp fire. And he had to chop his arm off in order to stay alive.
So he is immune as long as he doesn't die from it? Good thing his head didn't catch on fire.
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Old 2012-05-12, 19:01   Link #58
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
We will probably never agree on that one. In my interpretation if i willingly put my hand into some camp fire that doesn't mean that it can kill me
Whether you put your hand into a fire has no bearing on whether you're fireproof or not.
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Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
I was actually basing that statement about Sound Genjutsu on what Pa Frog said to Jiraiya. Being almost impossible to avoid is why it is considered the most dangerous.
What did he say again? I only remember he said to Jiraiya their best Genjutsu was frog-song. Still, it looks essentially the same than what Shika said anyway. That's why I'm not impressed that Itachi and Sasuke were caught since they have ears, what's trully impressive is that they couldn't break out of it alone.
Afterall Kurenai also caught Itachi in a Genjutsu, it's just that he simply threw it back within seconds.
Quote:
But anyway, looking at the chapter again showed Kabuto's snakes had replaced Tayuya's chains. So it was clearly Kabuto's work and spin on the jutsu. But there was still a huge outcry from Itachi fans on other forums on how he could get caught in such a genjustu.
Fans will be fans and the whole Jiraiya vs. Itachi doesn't help with the issue I suppose.
But again I'm surprised you thought the feat could be laid at Tayuya's feet. It's not like Kabuto summoned an Edo-Tensei or something equivalent. The Sound-5 and Oro weren't "alive" or even undead in any meaningfull sense in this chapter.
What Kabuto did is use Sakon's former Kekkei Genkai to select particular strand of his overcrowded DNA to grow body parts that were essentally simili-clones of people he has assimilated but in the end it's still Kabuto's body, chakra and strength.
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Old 2012-05-13, 15:25   Link #59
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
That's why I'm not impressed that Itachi and Sasuke were caught since they have ears, what's trully impressive is that they couldn't break out of it alone.
Afterall Kurenai also caught Itachi in a Genjutsu, it's just that he simply threw it back within seconds.
not only that, but kabuto's genjutsu is arguably more powerful than itachi's tsukiomi. sasuke was able to break free from tsukiomi on his own. i know it wasn't a true fight, but i still think itachi used a true tsukiomi on sasuke in order to test his strength which was one of the main reasons for the fight. just the very fact that the two strongest uchiha of the past couple generations couldn't break free from it on their own makes it the most powerful we've seen so far aside from the frog song

and yea, it's all kabuto on these techniques. I feel like kabuto is stronger than itachi and sasuke individually at this point. i know they are at a disadvantage since they are trying not to kill him, but still for kabuto to have this extensive of a technique array is very impressive. even though he obviously doesn't have every technique in the ninja world like was orochimaru's dream, he does have the capability to have all of them given his dna integration ability

also on a totally different topic, does anyone else feel like we're going to see some big time unsealings soon? one would be orochimaru although the time for that may have passed due to izanami taking effect soon. but the other would be from the death reaper. In these mangas the worst usually happens before things get better, so that means the juubi will most likely be created. so tobi most likely needs the 1/2 kyuubi that is sealed there since he needed the portion from the lightning brothers as well. also, I highly doubt kishi would allow all 4 previous hokages to wallow in torture and misery for an eternity. and having their souls freed would be a very momentous event to pass up for him
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Old 2012-05-13, 18:55   Link #60
Ero-Senn1n
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In the recent anime episode we saw some Gaara-fangirls in the alliance army. According to the manga the majority of them should be dead now, and if Madara and the others continue this then even more will die. I wonder if there will be some mass resurrection of this army, there should be at least 50,000 dead ninja by now, among them the young Gaara-fangirls, so maybe Kishimoto doesn't want this manga to end in a bloody massacre where most of the ninja are dead



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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
also on a totally different topic, does anyone else feel like we're going to see some big time unsealings soon? one would be orochimaru although the time for that may have passed due to izanami taking effect soon. but the other would be from the death reaper. In these mangas the worst usually happens before things get better,
If we want some final enemy for the Sasuke+Naruto team maybe it should be someone who killed a god, killing a god is a good hype for the new evil boss
I wonder if Itachi's totsuka sword could kill the death god For example the story could say that the totsuka sword was once the sword of a legendary death god and then he gave it to a human, so that is the only weapon that can hit a death god. The use of that sword would also make it possible that the hero summons the death god but doesn't die, because the death god is killed. For example Tobi wants the kyuubi's chakra from the death god, and since he now knows Edo-Tensei he first attacks someone who possibly can summon the death god (Kakashi or Tsunade, or even future Sasuke) and then he forces them in a battle to summon it (for example by taking Naruto, forcing a sacrifice to save Naruto) , then Tobi summons Edo-Itachi but lets him act freely, Itachi in such a desperate situation decides to use the totsuka sword to kill the death god and that's when Tobi captures the death god's contents.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-05-13 at 19:12.
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