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Old 2012-05-13, 14:47   Link #28821
goldendust
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Which chapter did Will say that? I thought it was during "here is the culprit". That Will commented that it was possible to reach the answers by the 4th game.
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Old 2012-05-13, 15:04   Link #28822
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saorin
I'm kinda bored with your "rhetorical" questions, so I'd prefer not to reply to questions that are apparently aimed at making the other person look "wrong". =D
You're welcome to state what you have to retort if that's what you want or you leave it be.
That's not my intention, Saorin. I usually make those sorts of questions to make a check of people's understanding so that I don't end up accidentally being an asshole when I do answer the question. For example, I have no idea if Vnonymous is a native English speaker, so I don't want to presume if he is indeed making a mistake of using the word 'mundane' incorrectly or is intentionally using it in an apparently abstract fashion to make a point I'm not getting.
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Old 2012-05-13, 15:27   Link #28823
Saorin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldendust View Post



Really? How do you think that Will knew everything by then?
Well, it's been ages that I've read that Episode, so I concede that I might only have been under the impression that Will was already aware of the answer by then.
I guess the manga would even imply that he only realized after the BSOD. So Will only refrained from giving the solution right then and there because he preferred doing it in a more stylish way? xD
I'm sure this was already asked (maybe even several times), but was this supposed to be a truly "possible" kakera or some mash-up world of Bernkastel's, or why did Shkanon even exist besides Lion in the first place? If so, she was making things pretty easy for Will, or couldn't she have been able to put in Shanon and Kanon separatly?

But why the long flashback of Rosa "killing" Beatrice all over again? Will had already seen all of that before. What was the reason for that?

Aura, then I admit that I apparently got the wrong impression. I just found it striking that you pose several questions instead of downright answering, I suppose that's what gave rise to my impression here.

So, I guess with "Endless Magic" you're alluding to taking the risk to get the "miracle" or "magic" result? So Battler's suffering was real because he couldn't know for sure whether he'd get out and was actually risking his skin here?
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Old 2012-05-13, 20:07   Link #28824
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Hello. I've got someone on Facebook trying to sell me on this bizarre Rosa/George culprit theory, and specifically mentioned AnimeSuki out of the blue as this "elitist site" who doesn't listen to him or something. Any idea who this is?
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Old 2012-05-13, 23:12   Link #28825
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Quote:
Aura, then I admit that I apparently got the wrong impression. I just found it striking that you pose several questions instead of downright answering, I suppose that's what gave rise to my impression here.

So, I guess with "Endless Magic" you're alluding to taking the risk to get the "miracle" or "magic" result? So Battler's suffering was real because he couldn't know for sure whether he'd get out and was actually risking his skin here?
The point I was trying to make is that, first and foremost, the Endless Magic is deception and acting. Every instance about it involves the 'witch' in question putting on an act that deceives the other person.

And since EP6 was supposed to be Battler demonstrating that he understood and could perform Beatrice's magic, it's natural, and backed by evidence, to conclude that Battler deliberately arranged things to push Beatrice to rescue him.
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Old 2012-05-13, 23:47   Link #28826
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Hello. I've got someone on Facebook trying to sell me on this bizarre Rosa/George culprit theory, and specifically mentioned AnimeSuki out of the blue as this "elitist site" who doesn't listen to him or something. Any idea who this is?
That sounds like KnownNoMore, the guy responsible for that super-long theory video posted on YouTube.
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:28   Link #28827
Thunder Book
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I thought it might be the same guy, but Facebook guy says he isn't, and the writing styles between KNM's comments on YouTube and the other person seem completely different.

Example: This is much, much more clear than...
Spoiler for KnownNoMore on YouTube:


This:

Spoiler for Guy I'm talking to on Facebook:
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:29   Link #28828
AuraTwilight
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Wow, that is so poorly written and he's so overly defensive that I have the suspicion that this guy is a troll.
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:36   Link #28829
Thunder Book
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Wow, that is so poorly written and he's so overly defensive that I have the suspicion that this guy is a troll.
Haha, I think he's genuine, but getting past his writing I really have no idea where he's getting some of his views on Umineko.
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Old 2012-05-14, 00:57   Link #28830
Wanderer
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How'd you meet this guy on FB? He just randomly message you?
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Old 2012-05-14, 01:04   Link #28831
Thunder Book
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He had posted a thread in an Umineko group on FB about that nine hour video series, and discussion stemmed from that.
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Old 2012-05-14, 06:17   Link #28832
Vnonymous
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not my intention, Saorin. I usually make those sorts of questions to make a check of people's understanding so that I don't end up accidentally being an asshole when I do answer the question. For example, I have no idea if Vnonymous is a native English speaker, so I don't want to presume if he is indeed making a mistake of using the word 'mundane' incorrectly or is intentionally using it in an apparently abstract fashion to make a point I'm not getting.
The actual result of Battler's trick, his disappearance from a closed room, is the fantastic part. Any magic trick becomes "mundane" when you see how it is performed.


Quote:
Regarding falsehoods in the meta narration, I think it's very easy to forget that the meta events of this game are not being Read by someone who knows the truth of the story. Ange can make mistakes and misinterpret things in the text she's looking at.
Quote:
I mean c'mon. If we applied mystery rules to everything in the meta world things would get pretty stupid
That rule doesn't just apply to mysteries. Deceptions played upon the reader by the author destroy any narrative, not just a mystery. While a deception played upon a character is perfectly fine, a deception played upon the reader is not. When you accept Genius Battler, which directly contradicts the text of the game, you are forced to find the "Umineko is the story of Purupurupiko-man's vacation" equally valid. When you can discount the actual text as "That character is lying" then you destroy any basis for reasoning. A character seeing something and believing it, even if it isn't necessarily true is fine, but lying about a character's internal narration is not.

Even then, Battler was obviously trying to escape from the closed room on his own.
Quote:
I could tell at a glance just how hard he had tried until the final moment when his heart had died. The collar binding him wouldn't disappear unless the chain lock was set.
Quote:
And, ......even in the last moment when his heart died, ......he had wanted so much to show his iron will to escape from this closed room......that he had chosen to fall here in the corridor, ......with the chain still around his neck...
Exactly how does this fit into Genius Battler theory? It doesn't - it directly contradicts it.

...now I feel like saying "What do you think, everyone?".
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:00   Link #28833
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Wow, that is so poorly written and he's so overly defensive that I have the suspicion that this guy is a troll.
Seriously... I think he's either sulkying that his theory was wrong, or is trying really hard to sound smart.

And what the hell is an 'elitest'?
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:13   Link #28834
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
When you accept Genius Battler, which directly contradicts the text of the game, you are forced to find the "Umineko is the story of Purupurupiko-man's vacation" equally valid.
You're positing a straw man argument. I can believe in genius Battler and not believe in a person X. Simply because more than one episode supports that a person x doesn't exist. and because how Battler writes the story is a completely different plotline.

Quote:
Even then, Battler was obviously trying to escape from the closed room on his own.

Exactly how does this fit into Genius Battler theory? It doesn't - it directly contradicts it.


Lambdadelta and Bernkastel told stories about their own logic errors. Once you've created one you're completely alone and terrified and are prompted to solve it yourself or you stop thinking and die. Whether or not you beleive it was Battler's plan to fool Erika it was still his plan to get Beatrice to solve his logic error ,and Battler cannot be 100% certain Beatrice could solve it. He had to keep thinking of how to get out to stay alive so his plan to create a miracle would work. So of course he's going to be terrified either way just like all the others, and will try and solve it himself.

I know you don't like the theory, but you're coming off as desperate to try and convince everyone it's not true. Which will simply never happen because you can't prove a negative.

Last edited by Judoh; 2012-05-14 at 08:07.
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:39   Link #28835
GreyZone
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@Vnonymous:

In that case the scene of Beato in EP3 when Eva-Beatrice pierced her with the siestas in pieces was not planned by Beato too? From your logic she couldn't have planned it, because it would contradict the narration! The narration says after all that she was suffering, so she could not have planned it! See the flawed logic here?

This already showed us that the narration can lie.

Battler also said in EP5???, that the story is NOT viewed from the "eyes of god", but from a subjective point of view.

Also for genius Battler, like Judoh said, It's a devils proof, also clues exist in EP5 and in EP6 itself.
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:45   Link #28836
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Thank you to whoever posted that youtube link a few pages back. Though I am still unsure whether to trust those screens, mostly because I don't want Kinzo to have been after the gold.
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:51   Link #28837
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Furthermore, http://www.yenpress.com/umineko-when-they-cry/ for all your fan-person pleasures. There is hope for me reading the Ep 3 manga yet!

Maybe there is hope for a rondo translation yet? (though actually, is rondo the same text as the VN? If so I'd be happy with a cut paste job and some pretty new artwork)
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:09   Link #28838
Vnonymous
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Quote:
You're positing a straw man argument. I can believe in genius Battler and not believe in a person X. Simply because more than one episode supports that a person x doesn't exist. and because how Battler writes the story is a completely different plotline.
You misunderstood my argument. When you say that the story itself is lying to you and you cannot trust direct evidence, you throw the entire story away. You can't say "Yes, the story itself was lying here to deceive the player" without putting your theory on the same level as the Purupurupiko man one. "The story was lying here" can be said about every single part of the entire narrative, including the parts that support Genius Battler! When you discount those parts of the story as Battler lying to Ange and Featherine/Himself/The players, I can say the exact same thing about the "evidence" supporting that theory! If you're going to provide evidence for genius battler that's great, but if you're going to deny the text of the story then you just lose any basis for discussion.


Quote:
I know you don't like the theory, but you're coming off as desperate to try and convince everyone it's not true. Which will simply never happen because you can't prove a negative.
But I'm not proving a negative. I'm disproving a positive, which is rather different. I may not be able to prove that witches don't exist, but I can prove that Beatrice isn't one, if you get my meaning.
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:18   Link #28839
GreyZone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vnonymous View Post
You misunderstood my argument. When you say that the story itself is lying to you and you cannot trust direct evidence, you throw the entire story away. You can't say "Yes, the story itself was lying here to deceive the player" without putting your theory on the same level as the Purupurupiko man one. "The story was lying here" can be said about every single part of the entire narrative, including the parts that support Genius Battler! When you discount those parts of the story as Battler lying to Ange and Featherine/Himself/The players, I can say the exact same thing about the "evidence" supporting that theory! If you're going to provide evidence for genius battler that's great, but if you're going to deny the text of the story then you just lose any basis for discussion.
It was stated over and over, that you can not trust anything completly, if it is not observed by the "Detective". Otherwise I could claim that "magic exists, because the narrative said so".

In EP6 Battler is NOT the detective. Erika is (or possibly chick-Beato from a fantasy point of view, because Erika may have been invalidated as detective, because of her killings). And as i said above, it has parallels to EP3. Beato acted as if she was in peril too back then. Battler is doing the same now. Why is that so hard to believe?

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-05-14 at 12:59.
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Old 2012-05-14, 11:05   Link #28840
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Thunder Book View Post
Hello. I've got someone on Facebook trying to sell me on this bizarre Rosa/George culprit theory, and specifically mentioned AnimeSuki out of the blue as this "elitist site" who doesn't listen to him or something. Any idea who this is?
This guy could be as well someone that hadn't posted here in years. The list of people that hanged here for a while and then vanished is pretty long

just take a look at this:

http://forums.animesuki.com/misc.php...posted&t=83581

these are all the people that posted at least once on this topic.

I don't remember anyone in particular who expecially argued about Rosa and George being the culprits, but it is entirely possible that this guy still had to made this story while he was here.

I fear you are looking for a needle on haystack, it's probably easier to ask him directly what was his username here.
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