AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-05-13, 19:59   Link #1001
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
A discussion focusing on KyoAni/Kadokawa recently took off on the Anime DVD/BD Sales in Japan: Discussion thread, so I'm moving it over here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Quite a few of KyoAni's shows have crack 20K. Some more than that. I'd be hard pressed to think of a studio that has simultaneously aired more than one 20K+ TV series.
I'm pretty sure that A-1 Pictures pulled it off in 2011.

Still, I don't expect KyoAni to make multiple shows per season. You're right, at that point, they'd risk eating into their own sales (imagine if Hyou-Ka had to go up against a new Haruhi series right now, for example).

I'd just like to see KyoAni have one project going per season. Back in 2011, KyoAni had exactly one project going on between Winter 2010/2011 to Fall 2011 - Nichijou (the K-On movie probably fits best in Winter 2011/2012). So one two cour project over four seasons. So even if they could add just one additional project per year that could make a huge difference.


For example, back in 2011, that one extra project could have been a FMP sequel (airing in the Fall, say).

This year, it could have been a Haruhi sequel.

In 2013, it could have been Little Busters (Key probably would have waited that long if they had assurance that KyoAni could roll it out by 2013).

So with a bit more production capacity, KyoAni could take on the Nichijous and the Hyou-Kas, and still have the ability to please their established Key, Haruhi, and FMP fans.

As is, it seems like KyoAni is always forced to choose - More work appealing to fans of an established property, or more new projects; it seems hard for them to have a little bit of both. They tend to keep getting stuck with either leaving some of their fans out in the cold or not doing anything new/different at all, and that's a harsh and unfortunate choice to make, of course.


Quote:
My point wasn't just root causes. It was that Kyoto/Pony Canyon and Kyoto/Kadokawa have very different records on completion and so I question a "KyoAni approach" to sequels.

Pony Canyon and Kyoto spent four years making nothing but Key based anime before they decided they wanted to try something else. Then spent another two and a half years making nothing but K-On stuff.

Kadokawa and Kyoto, on the other hand, seldom makes sequels even of high selling works.
Ah, I see your point. Yes, Pony Canyon and Kadokawa do seem to have different philosophies here, so that's worth taking note of, yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

But my contention in terms outside of DVD/BD sales is that Haruhi already sells. And while a new Haruhi series or film would almost certainly sell 20K+ in disks, the series itself doesn't need more animated to generate sales of other products, since people already buy those things. With a new show (Hyouka in this case), there is greater potental for profits throughout all Kadakawa's many branches. All sales will be new aside from some of the older book series fans. Given that the books are selling in the 20K+ region, that means a lot of profit on a 11 year old novel, plus the BD/DVDs, plus any other merchandizing they can come up with. That is a lot of money to come in, all while people are still buying Haruhi products at only a slightly lesser rate than if there was a show on the air. About the only sales projection that they lose on is potental BD/DVD sales of a new Haruhi anime, and I imagine they get more from the volume of sales of other products related to Hyouka than they lose by not making Haruhi for Disc sales. Because everything else Haruhi still sells.
I understand this argument, and I've read variations of it before. On a case-by-case basis, it makes some sense.

But if you always choose the new property over Haruhi, then there's a risk of the Haruhi property losing popularity before it might if you had more anime material of it to help generate increased/sustained interest in it.


Basically, my questions to you (and anybody else interested in answering it) is as follows: What's the end game here? Does Kadokawa have to exhaust its full list of properties before KyoAni gets to do more Haruhi? If so, does Haruhi ever get more animated material done?

Are fans of the Haruhi anime just to be left out in the cold forever, in spite of how strongly they supported the show in huge sales for Haruhi 2006 and Disappearance (and even buying Haruhi 2009 in numbers that most studios would consider a hit)?


At this juncture, if KyoAni/Kadokawa was to come out and say "There will be a new Haruhi show in 2015", I'd take that over what we have now. Yes, it would mean a long wait, but it would be something concrete at least.
__________________
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-05-13, 21:39   Link #1002
ultimatemegax
Nyahahahaha♥
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Send a message via MSN to ultimatemegax Send a message via Yahoo to ultimatemegax Send a message via Skype™ to ultimatemegax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
A discussion focusing on KyoAni/Kadokawa recently took off on the Anime DVD/BD Sales in Japan: Discussion thread, so I'm moving it over here.
Thank you for moving it. I felt very uncomfortable talking about solely KyoAni in that thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm pretty sure that A-1 Pictures pulled it (2 10k sellers in one season) off in 2011.
Correct. A1 had both Blue Exorcist and AnoHana in Spring and both sold over 10k (barely in the case of the former). I believe the only other example would be KyoAni's own double-dip of K-On! and The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya in Spring 2009 (just counting the new episodes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'd just like to see KyoAni have one project going per season. Back in 2011, KyoAni had exactly one project going on between Winter 2010/2011 to Fall 2011 - Nichijou (the K-On movie probably fits best in Winter 2011/2012). So one two cour project over four seasons. So even if they could add just one additional project per year that could make a huge difference.

For example, back in 2011, that one extra project could have been a FMP sequel (airing in the Fall, say).

This year, it could have been a Haruhi sequel.

In 2013, it could have been Little Busters (Key probably would have waited that long if they had assurance that KyoAni could roll it out by 2013).

So with a bit more production capacity, KyoAni could take on the Nichijous and the Hyou-Kas, and still have the ability to please their established Key, Haruhi, and FMP fans.
The issue with this as I see it is that while sequels are usually easy to plan (Haruhi and (blank)monogatari not-withstanding), new shows take a little while to start up production, which we are not told about until later. This is the first season that a non-Yamada or non-Ishihara work has aired since Spring 2007. Those two (and Takemoto) direct the vast majority of the KyoAni works. Yamada, iirc, trained under Ishihara during the Key works. I'm not sure if they would want to either hire an outside director or promote someone (Ishidate?) to be a third director just for continous work.

Another note is that, unlike other studios that pay per cut, KyoAni animators are paid an hourly salary. They don't rush to finish shows so they have the time to put in quality work. Adding another show (without substantially increasing the amount of animators or outsourcing) would likely overwork those people, thus decreasing quality. A-1 and Shaft get away with multiple jobs because of outsourcing and paying per cut. It's not how KyoAni works, and that prevents additional works.

Having said that, I think they could repeat what happened in 2008/2009. Instead of taking a Spring/Summer show, they likely continued to work on Clannad and finished After Story early. During the late fall/early winter/spring seasons, they then worked on Haruhi-chan/Churuya-san/K-On!/Haruhi 2009/[in quick succession, culminating in the Haruhi movie. Since K-On!! would be a sequel, the amount of animation pre-production work was significantly decreased, and they could animate it quickly. That's probably one of the main reasons why it came out and not Little Busters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
As is, it seems like KyoAni is always forced to choose - More work appealing to fans of an established property, or more new projects; it seems hard for them to have a little bit of both. They tend to keep getting stuck with either leaving some of their fans out in the cold or not doing anything new/different at all, and that's a harsh and unfortunate choice to make, of course.
With the amount of time it takes to produce the animation production materials, we see it as "choosing a new property" much too easy compared to "making a sequel." I can say that Haruhi was decided prior to Fall 2005. Lucky Star was probably decided around that time. Nichijou was confirmed to be picked in 2009. Hyouka was likely decided in 2010. Without knowing sales numbers in 2009 and 2010 for the Haruhi DVDs/BDs, they made those choices over another season of the latter. They couldn't have known how well they would do or if they would sell. After these contracts are signed, it's probably not easy to break them, so they were stuck working on those two projects.

As for the Key works, due to the quick succession of them, I would imagine that TBS/Pony Canyon decided on those three first and then decided to do something new for K-On!. Unlike the Kadokawa works, I'm not as versed in these decisions, so I can't say anything concrete. I'd argue that a sequel to K-On! was the most likely choice to have something airing in 2010. It's rather strange how we've not heard anything about their next work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Full Metal Panic and Haruhi are the only two I can think of that were Kyoto and Kadokawa series that had sequels. Full Metal Panic: TSR was not fuctionally a sequel to Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu, but one to the GONZO aimated first series. Haruhi is Haruhi, and with the ways they tell things, it is hard to pin the title "sequel" on anything other than the movie. It actually is almost impossible to define exactly what Haruhi 2009 was.

But my contention in terms outside of DVD/BD sales is that Haruhi already sells. And while a new Haruhi series or film would almost certainly sell 20K+ in disks, the series itself doesn't need more animated to generate sales of other products, since people already buy those things. With a new show (Hyouka in this case), there is greater potental for profits throughout all Kadakawa's many branches. All sales will be new aside from some of the older book series fans. Given that the books are selling in the 20K+ region, that means a lot of profit on a 11 year old novel, plus the BD/DVDs, plus any other merchandizing they can come up with. That is a lot of money to come in, all while people are still buying Haruhi products at only a slightly lesser rate than if there was a show on the air. About the only sales projection that they lose on is potental BD/DVD sales of a new Haruhi anime, and I imagine they get more from the volume of sales of other products related to Hyouka than they lose by not making Haruhi for Disc sales. Because everything else Haruhi still sells.

I understand this argument, and I've read variations of it before. On a case-by-case basis, it makes some sense.

But if you always choose the new property over Haruhi, then there's a risk of the Haruhi property losing popularity before it might if you had more anime material of it to help generate increased/sustained interest in it.
To me, it feels like Kadokawa asked KyoAni, "what work do you want to animate?" and Takemoto said "The Kotenbu series" and they let him work on it while Ishihara did Nichijou. Kadokawa has barely promoted this work on their own. This feels more like a KyoAni decision than any other non-Munto work prior. First announcements, special website, constant CMs during broadcasts, named as a sponsor of timeslots, etc. The only negative I can see for that theory is that they're not listed as one of the copyright names like Kadokawa Shouten is, but that's likely a reference to the publishing side. For all we know right now, this could be a project to hold over until Haruhi turns 10 next year. It doesn't make business sense to promote a series that's barely published 5 novels in 9 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Basically, my questions to you (and anybody else interested in answering it) is as follows: What's the end game here? Does Kadokawa have to exhaust its full list of properties before KyoAni gets to do more Haruhi? If so, does Haruhi ever get more animated material done?

Are fans of the Haruhi anime just to be left out in the cold forever, in spite of how strongly they supported the show in huge sales for Haruhi 2006 and Disappearance (and even buying Haruhi 2009 in numbers that most studios would consider a hit)?

At this juncture, if KyoAni/Kadokawa was to come out and say "There will be a new Haruhi show in 2015", I'd take that over what we have now. Yes, it would mean a long wait, but it would be something concrete at least.
One avenue for why no Haruhi announcement could be what happened with announcing a "second season" and then changing their mind to make Disappearance a movie. That delayed production and they don't want to announce something and have that happen again.

Next year, we will probably see what Kadokawa and KyoAni negotiated in 2011. By then, they will have seen the sales for Disappearance and know the printing numbers for Surprise. Lack of information regarding support for the franchise will not be a suitable excuse after that.

Right now, the only information we have regarding a new work is their adaptation of Chuunibyou, which is standard for this time period. I can't find when K-On! was announced, but it was only in August/September 2008 when Haruhi was announced to be coming back (heavily hinted for the following year). We usually only know one/two works from them at one time.

Again, thank you for moving to this thread, I feel more comfortable speculating here than in the DVD/BD sales thread and getting that more off-track.
__________________

“Nyahaha! Then we move to round two, Hero! ★”
Chuunibyou translation: 1st novel - OUT/ 2nd novel - OUT
ultimatemegax is offline  
Old 2012-05-13, 21:57   Link #1003
Ithekro
Space Battlecarrier
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
There is also the possibility that they don't want to animate more of the same. I know of plenty of artists and actors that pretty much refuse to do repeat work, as they consider it uncreative...even if it is surefire money. They do stuff for the art or creativity...not the money. (or they do stuff for the money, but can't generate any enthusiasm for repeat projects)
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2012-05-13, 21:59   Link #1004
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
I know it was a post from another thread, but Sunrise pretty regularly cracks the 20K+ barrier in BD/DVD sales. Practically every other season it feels of late, but then they're enormously huge and have access to what might as well be an unlimited source of capital and advertising venues compared to other studios so it's not exactly surprising. I think achieved it simultaneously with Gundam 00 and Code Geass as well. If not that then Gintama and Horizon or Tiger and Bunny. It's definitely happened at some point recently though. In any case it's definitely not a phenomenon unique to Kyoani by any stretch.

As for expansion talk, why Kyoani doesn't expand it's operation already though is beyond me. They don't need to have like 8 different studio buildings like Sunrise or whatever, but they can at least follow their example and maybe divide themselves up into distinct teams to try and hone their craft and generate ideas in more focused groups AND maybe have some more diversity in the types of shows they produce as a result if they ever start thinking about trying to branch out more from the hardcore moe crowd. They could also consider going public or perhaps seeking a merger with Kadokawa since it almost seems like they work with them already.

Last edited by Kaioshin Sama; 2012-05-13 at 22:19.
Kaioshin Sama is offline  
Old 2012-05-13, 23:36   Link #1005
TJR
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0
Pony Canyon and Kyoto spent four years making nothing but Key based anime before they decided they wanted to try something else. Then spent another two and a half years making nothing but K-On stuff.

Kadokawa and Kyoto, on the other hand, seldom makes sequels even of high selling works.
Yes, different company = different mission

Kadokawa is a publishing giant, and their priority is to create popular properties that can be exploited in various ways. Brand building is more important than the anime itself.

Pony Canyon is a CD/DVD distributor (and the parent company is a TV station), so their focus is more narrow. They don't own the K-ON! or AIR/Kanon/Clannad properties.

Quote:
Having said that, I think they could repeat what happened in 2008/2009. Instead of taking a Spring/Summer show, they likely continued to work on Clannad and finished After Story early. During the late fall/early winter/spring seasons, they then worked on Haruhi-chan/Churuya-san/K-On!/Haruhi 2009/[in quick succession, culminating in the Haruhi movie.
Kyoto Animation could try that. However, I suspect that they're avoiding that kind of schedule for a reason. 2008/2009 was a notoriously hectic time for the studio, and they were unable to work at a pace that they were comfortable with.

As for expansion, the company is always growing little by little. In terms of training, they're doing a lot more than most of the industry (KyoAni hires people on an exclusive, full-time basis, so they invest a lot in training), but it takes time to produce highly skilled animators.
TJR is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 01:45   Link #1006
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I know it was a post from another thread, but Sunrise pretty regularly cracks the 20K+ barrier in BD/DVD sales. Practically every other season it feels of late, but then they're enormously huge and have access to what might as well be an unlimited source of capital and advertising venues compared to other studios so it's not exactly surprising. I think achieved it simultaneously with Gundam 00 and Code Geass as well.
Depends on how you define simultaneous. DVD/Bluray releases for 00 and Geass overlapped at times sometimes overlapped by a month or two despite the fact the airings did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
As for expansion talk, why Kyoani doesn't expand it's operation already though is beyond me. They don't need to have like 8 different studio buildings like Sunrise or whatever, but they can at least follow their example and maybe divide themselves up into distinct teams to try and hone their craft and generate ideas in more focused groups AND maybe have some more diversity in the types of shows they produce as a result if they ever start thinking about trying to branch out more from the hardcore moe crowd.
I have a hunch that Kyoto's strategy is something along the lines of "a lot more people will watch one moe show than many, and we're going to make that show." Far from just being the "hardcore moe crowd", the most notable thing about Kyoto's fanbase in my experience is how many people in it either don't watch many moe shows or were introduced to moe through Kyoto work. To that end, I don't think their strategy is "expand our lineup" so much as "strengthen our brand" (along with grow the moe market - the impression I've gotten is that Kyoto's original material for K-On! relies a lot less on otaku tropes than the source material, for example). It's not lost on me that Hyouka very much recalls the strengths of Kyoto's collaborations with Key (a very, very positive connotation for many) and that they're going to be taking another crack at an original project once Hyouka is done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
They could also consider going public or perhaps seeking a merger with Kadokawa since it almost seems like they work with them already.
I'm not sure how much I'd want to see a Kadokawa merger, many of the fan favourites involved Pony Canyon and not Kadokawa. Kyoto-Pony Canyon has yet to produce a show that sells under 18K - can't say that about Kyoto-Kadokawa.
__________________

Signature courtesy of Ganbaru.
0utf0xZer0 is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 10:18   Link #1007
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
The KyoAni/Pony Canyon alliance is definitely stronger... the K-ON! movie will obliterate the sales of the Haruhi movie... just like it did @ the box office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
It's down to KyoAni's limited production. If they're busy expanding Kadokawa's portfolio of hits (top priority for any publishing company), making anime for TBS/Pony Canyon, and experimenting with some of their own initiatives (Munto, Chū-2 Byō Demo Koi ga Shitai!), there may not be much room for Haruhi. They're unable to animate Haruhi with any kind of regularity, so it's difficult for producers to make any promises......
The thing is that the Haruhi thing is entirely on Kadokawa.. if they gave up trying to push another new franchise than that would open up a slot for Haruhi. Investing in new shows is a smart thing to do though... with the success of Hyou-Ka you might see a 6th novel in the series being planned.. and considering the situation with the last Haruhi novels.. probably better for Kadokawa..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
KyoAni must be making an awful lot of cash. So why not use some of that cash to enlarge their studio (in the sense of how many animation teams they have), and their production capacity with it? That can be done without sacrificing high standards of quality.
Who says they haven't enlarged? Just because it's not like Bones with firstly B Studio than C Studio and lastly D Studio doesn't mean they haven't added to their workforce. They have produced a Movie in both 2010 and 2011 which is much more production work than mere TV series... you also have to take into account Animation Do..

Quote:
And if given a choice between the KyoAni pros/cons (consistently high quality work, but you may never see your favorite KyoAni shows animated to completion), and the SHAFT pros/cons (occasional lateness in getting episodes out and the occasional animation issue, but generally high quality work and you will get to see your favorite SHAFT shows animated to completion), I'll gladly take the SHAFT pros/cons.

The occasional rushed/messy/late episode is a lot less irritating to me than one or more of my favorite anime shows being left in development limbo.
Lmao.

Yeah man, love how SHAFT animated all of Maria Holic, Denpa, Vampire Bund, Soredemo Machi wa Mawatte Iru, Natsu no Arashi! & Arakawa Under the Bridge. ("Bu-bu-but most of them got 2 seasons!" Oh just like FMP and Haruhi did?)

Also SHAFT are nowhere near generally high quality work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'd just like to see KyoAni have one project going per season. Back in 2011, KyoAni had exactly one project going on between Winter 2010/2011 to Fall 2011 - Nichijou (the K-On movie probably fits best in Winter 2011/2012). So one two cour project over four seasons. So even if they could add just one additional project per year that could make a huge difference.
Do you just not understand the amount of work that goes into producing a movie or something? They would've been working on that for most of 2011... If Bones is behind Fuse than you can rest assure that whichever studio is working on it has been doing so for a while... and quite a few have been free for some time (though 1 is obviously doing Zetsuen no Tempest).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is also the possibility that they don't want to animate more of the same. I know of plenty of artists and actors that pretty much refuse to do repeat work, as they consider it uncreative...even if it is surefire money. They do stuff for the art or creativity...not the money. (or they do stuff for the money, but can't generate any enthusiasm for repeat projects)
A 3rd Haruhi series in the 10th year since the franchise was made seems a no brainer. Especially as ultimatemegax said they have the sales figures for the Disappearance Movie and the Surprise light novels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
I know it was a post from another thread, but Sunrise pretty regularly cracks the 20K+ barrier in BD/DVD sales. Practically every other season it feels of late,
Aside from Gundam Unicorn.. only Tiger and Bunny (27k) and Horizon (21k after 5) have done that since Gundam 00 Pt2 back in 09. They've put out a lot of flops in the same time, Sacred Seven, Natsu-iro Kiseki (most likely), High School Boys, Phi Brain and Gundam AGE.. but Accel World looks like being a decent seller and they have Code Geass lined up. (Though I don't see Binbougami ga! selling well... but who knows).
Westlo is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 11:31   Link #1008
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
As for expansion talk, why Kyoani doesn't expand it's operation already though is beyond me. They don't need to have like 8 different studio buildings like Sunrise or whatever, but they can at least follow their example and maybe divide themselves up into distinct teams to try and hone their craft and generate ideas in more focused groups AND maybe have some more diversity in the types of shows they produce as a result if they ever start thinking about trying to branch out more from the hardcore moe crowd. They could also consider going public or perhaps seeking a merger with Kadokawa since it almost seems like they work with them already.
Totally different business models. You could even claim they are not in the same business. Kyoto is part animation school, part studio, and trains up most of it's own staff. It's probably not possible to expand production fast. Especially with natural attrition in the form of staff leaving to (form) other companies like A1 and Ordet.

Sunrise is primarily a production planning agency with several affiliated semi- independent studios. They end up getting involved with many different anime as their core business is project management. However a lot of the actual production get's done by subcontractors.
Bri is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 15:11   Link #1009
Goggen
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is also the possibility that they don't want to animate more of the same. I know of plenty of artists and actors that pretty much refuse to do repeat work, as they consider it uncreative...even if it is surefire money. They do stuff for the art or creativity...not the money. (or they do stuff for the money, but can't generate any enthusiasm for repeat projects)
And this is why I'll respect KyoAni if they never continue their most popular franchises - that being K-On! and Haruhi. I'll be disappointed... but I'll respect it.
__________________
KEION!GEEK - a K-On! fan blog
Goggen is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 15:31   Link #1010
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Who says they haven't enlarged?
If they've enlarged, why are they so production constrained? Enlarging a studio should logically bring with it more animation projects, shouldn't it?


Quote:
Just because it's not like Bones with firstly B Studio than C Studio and lastly D Studio doesn't mean they haven't added to their workforce. They have produced a Movie in both 2010 and 2011 which is much more production work than mere TV series... you also have to take into account Animation Do..
And what has "Animation Do" done? Serious question.


Quote:
Yeah man, love how SHAFT animated all of Maria Holic, Denpa, Vampire Bund, Soredemo Machi wa Mawatte Iru, Natsu no Arashi! & Arakawa Under the Bridge.
A couple points:

1) I was speaking personally. The SHAFT properties I've followed the most are the Monogatari series and Madoka Magica. Basically, the SHAFT equivalent (sales success-wise) to KyoAni's K-On! and Haruhi. Is there any doubt that SHAFT will animate the Monogatari series to completion? I really don't think there is.

2) I'm pretty sure that at least a couple of those you listed bombed. If a show bombs, there's less reason to expect to see its source material animated to completion. I accept that. It's when a show sells incredibly well, and it still doesn't get a sequel in spite of having a passionate fanbase/customerbase that things are much harder for some of us to accept.


Quote:
("Bu-bu-but most of them got 2 seasons!" Oh just like FMP and Haruhi did?)
Many people don't consider the Haruhi 2009 airing a "Second Season". Heck, that was a major bone of contention back in 2009 on the Haruhi subforum. Lots of Haruhi fans absolutely refused to think of it as a 2nd season, preferring to think of it as a "re-airing" (which, in fairness, is a defensible stance given how little promotion it had prior to airing).


Quote:
Also SHAFT are nowhere near generally high quality work.
The SHAFT shows I've recently watched are, imo. Madoka Magica, the Monogatari series, Denpa Onna, these three typically looked great to me. Each had the odd bit of QUALITY animation (or complete lack thereof, in some cases with Bake), but I was largely satisfied with the visual work done on all three. I was critical of Nise in some ways, but its visuals were perfectly fine, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
And this is why I'll respect KyoAni if they never continue their most popular franchises - that being K-On! and Haruhi. I'll be disappointed... but I'll respect it.
I most definitely wouldn't respect it. Why should people respect a studio that refuses to respect the loyal, paying fans of its most popular franchises? This is a ridiculously low standard that you're holding KyoAni to.

Far less popular shows than Haruhi have had 3 or more seasons. If Zero no Tsukaima can get 4 seasons, and animated to completion, then there is no good reason why Haruhi shouldn't receive similar treatment.

If animators at other studios have to do repeat work when the market demands it (and they do), then so should animators at KyoAni.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-05-14 at 15:48.
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 15:52   Link #1011
Goggen
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I most definitely wouldn't respect it. Why should people respect a studio that refuses to respect the loyal, paying fans of its most popular franchises? This is a ridiculously low standard that you're holding KyoAni to.
Well, I guess I'm gonna have to disagree there. God knows I've spent money on K-On! goods, but I don't feel that as a fan I'm owed anything for that - beyond the goods that I paid for. And I don't feel that I'm holding KyoAni to a low standard, it's quite the opposite in my opinion. From a purely artistic point of view, I can understand and appreciate that KyoAni would strive to do new and "better" things rather than spend their valuable time on sequel after sequel to their biggest hits.

For my own selfish reasons, though, there's nothing I'd rather see from them right now than more Haruhi.
__________________
KEION!GEEK - a K-On! fan blog
Goggen is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 16:04   Link #1012
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
Well, I guess I'm gonna have to disagree there. God knows I've spent money on K-On! goods, but I don't feel that as a fan I'm owed anything for that - beyond the goods that I paid for.
It depends on the nature of the property. If a property is completed, then it's completed. But if there's clearly more story left to be told, then yes, fans of a popular property have a right to expect to eventually see more of it.


Quote:
And I don't feel that I'm holding KyoAni to a low standard,
I'm talking about holding KyoAni to a low standard when it comes to meeting fan demands/desires. Other studios have to do repeat work all the time. If a property with yet-to-be-animated source material sells well, then repeat work is just about inevitable. That's the "standard" I'm referring to here.


Quote:
From a purely artistic point of view, I can understand and appreciate that KyoAni would strive to do new and "better" things
Is Hyou-Ka newer and better than Haruhi? Is Nichijou newer and better than K-On?

If KyoAni was really going experimental - Doing something like the current Lupin anime, say - I could kind of see your argument, even if I didn't fully agree with it. But as is, it doesn't resonate that much with me.


Quote:
rather than spend their valuable time on sequel after sequel to their biggest hits.
They're paid for their valuable time. Judging by Kadokawa's price models, they're paid very good money for what they produce. If you expect your customers to pay premium prices for your goods, then I frankly think that you owe your customers a generally high level of respect and service.


Quote:
For my own selfish reasons, though, there's nothing I'd rather see from them right now than more Haruhi.
I don't think that's selfish of you. I think it's perfectly reasonable of you. It's perfectly reasonable for you to want to see one of your favorite anime shows animated to completion, particularly given that it's very popular and sells great.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-05-14 at 16:19. Reason: Clarifying/softening argument a bit.
Triple_R is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 16:26   Link #1013
Ithekro
Space Battlecarrier
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
If (and it is if) they are taking an artists view point in how they animate things, they have every right to not make anymore if they don't want to. They don't own the fans anything except quality work in whatever they do.

There have been actors, directors, artists, and others that refuse to do repeat work. Actors that will never play the same role twice on screen (or do a second run of a play). Directors that refuse to make sequels because they fell the second one could never stand up to the original, or that it would "belittle their master work". There are artists that don't do the same thing over again because it is boring to them. They like to do new things...all the time. Even when offered obscene amounts of money. So much that their friends and enemies think they are crazy for refusing that kind of money.

There are also the "starving artists" that are only starving because they refuse to do the kind of work that would make them money...even when they've done that work before. The overly creative types that won't do things for the money and only for the art.

While Kyoto Animation probably is not in this boat, they so show a large amount of quality in their animation styles. In pretty much any KyoAni show, there is very little room to complain about their animation. Some complain about the art style in places, but not the animation. People complained about Nichijou for style of humor, pacing, and art style...but I don't think anyone could say it was poorly made in terms of animation. They went all out on that from all appearances with many over-the-top sequences. To the point were it seemed like they were gearing up for something else with all these different styles and techically challenges.

Now Hyouka also has very good animation and the art style is smooth. Again people generally don't argue against KyoAni's animation abilities, nor do they usually argue against them when they start doing realistic backgrounds and settings. Attention to detail seems to almost be a hallmark of KyoAni and that is perfect for a mystery based anime where clues are visual much of the time.

With their long list of Key works, K-On, and Haruhi, it is possible that either the artists/producers were just tired of looking at them over the course of years animating those thing, or the people that were key to those productions have since moved on to other companies. Same could be true for Full Metal Panic...but considering the author of that work is working for KyoAni in Hyouka and written multiple treatments of episodes for several of KyoAni's shows....one feels they want to make more of that, but just don't have a green light to do so.


Plus I waited a very long time for a sequel and a remake to a series I enjoyed growing up. It will happen for whichever show it is you want it to be if it was very popular....eventually.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 16:27   Link #1014
Goggen
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It depends on the nature of the property. If a property is completed, then it's completed. But if there's clearly more story left to be told, then yes, fans of a popular property have a right to expect to eventually see more of it.
I guess this is where our disagreement lies. I don't believe we have a right to anything. I do see your point, though. Best to agree to disagree on this particular matter I think.
__________________
KEION!GEEK - a K-On! fan blog
Goggen is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 16:47   Link #1015
RegalStar
Mishaguji-sama
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
fans of a popular property have a right to expect to eventually see more of it
You don't.
RegalStar is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 17:22   Link #1016
Arabesque
Licensed Hunter-a-holic
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 25
I think that SHAFT is a really bad example to bring up when arguing for KyoAni to expand or increase their productions. If anything, they work better as a reason against the case.

Consider this. The animation for the majority of SHAFT's productions are mostly outsourced, with few episodes of any given series actually done in house. Their work schedules are extremely bloated, with little to no lead time for the completion of the episodes (or in some cases, films) before their release, leading to results like the legendary incomplete episodes (Moon Phase, Bakemonogatari, and Himidari Sketch (the last one gets a special mention for the Mt. Fuji bit)), or the infinite delays for the Bakemonogatari (their best selling property, and yet they had delayed numerous times the series finale, and the BD releases, and the movie ...) or the Negima movie, where thanks to their poor schedule, they had to remove 20 whole minutes from the initial release of the film.

Now I get that there is an annoyance with the nature of KyoAni's productions never reaching completion, and on some level I can sympathize and agree with the argument. As a fan, I would feel pretty pissed that my favorite shows end up getting stuck in limbo without any hope of seeing them to their conclusion. That said, KyoAni taking a page out of SHAFT's book would be the worst thing that could happen. I personally would not happy at all seeing them pulling the same crap that SHAFT does. Examples like JC Staff, Bones or Sunrise are much better and preferable IMHO.

On why they decide to restrict their productions to so few, I think it might have to do with their teams seeking a more relaxed and comfortable working conditions, so that they give each work they do enough time and care to see it completion (as opposed to SHAFT's impossible working conditions and counter productive ''motivation'' of ''We must complete this before the dead line, since we have 5 more shows to work on later!''...). Is this the best way to go about thing? In some ways, it's good for the quality since like ultimatemegax had pointed out, it insures (or at least promotes) their team to place more effeort into their products. But on other fronts, it probably isn't the best way, since it doesn't allow for much room for experimentation with different shows and constantly forces them to play safe most of the time with targeting one crowd, as well as not being that good at planing for sequels.

So why don't they expand then, to help with making things a bit more balanced? I think part of it is that their teams are more comfortable with how things are right now (they might be able to handle this level of work and not more without a clear drop in quality, or that they simply think they wont be able to gaunraty a constant string of hits over a long term period of time), and another part is that they might have some different plans for the future (Kaioshin mentioned that they might consider seeking a Kadokawa, which might be the next logical step for them ...) so expansion at this period of time might not be in the studio's future best interest.

That all said, I'm sort of with Triple R on one point

Quote:
Are fans of the Haruhi anime just to be left out in the cold forever, in spite of how strongly they supported the show in huge sales for Haruhi 2006 and Disappearance (and even buying Haruhi 2009 in numbers that most studios would consider a hit)?


At this juncture, if KyoAni/Kadokawa was to come out and say "There will be a new Haruhi show in 2015", I'd take that over what we have now. Yes, it would mean a long wait, but it would be something concrete at least.
I think that the current way things had been going had been very unfair to Haruhi fans, who had played a strong part in supporting KyoAni in becoming what it is today. Certainly, I don't think they are obliged or forced to make a new series, but the way the older fans had been treated after putting faith in the studio makes me find it hard to not side with the fans on this one ...
__________________
Arabesque is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 18:03   Link #1017
Ithekro
Space Battlecarrier
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 37
At least they aren't doing it like the old days of Studio Nue and Toei Animation during the 1970s. There are recorded instances of the animation studios delivering episodes and even films of Space Battleship Yamato on the day of release. The show aired at something like 8pm and they would delivered the show at 8am...sometimes without having the chance to review, nor correct errors. Or with the second roll of the film being developed while the first roll was being broadbast (TV movie).

They say some of that was due to the producer tending to rework eveything and loved meetings...thus they would lose time due to meeting after meeting and script revision after revision.
__________________
Dessler Soto, Banzai!
Ithekro is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 18:55   Link #1018
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
I'm pretty sure Triple_R was talking about healthy expectation and anticipation and not entitlement of the kind you'd see surrounding say the whole Little Busters fiasco. Personally I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a follow up to hit franchises, it's when you start demanding and complaining when one doesn't immediately get one that I think is a problem. Unfortunately, and I think this is the root of the misunderstanding, this is a pretty frequent occurence when it comes to announcements of Kyoani announcements and non-announcements.
Kaioshin Sama is offline  
Old 2012-05-14, 19:31   Link #1019
ultimatemegax
Nyahahahaha♥
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Send a message via MSN to ultimatemegax Send a message via Yahoo to ultimatemegax Send a message via Skype™ to ultimatemegax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Many people don't consider the Haruhi 2009 airing a "Second Season". Heck, that was a major bone of contention back in 2009 on the Haruhi subforum. Lots of Haruhi fans absolutely refused to think of it as a 2nd season, preferring to think of it as a "re-airing" (which, in fairness, is a defensible stance given how little promotion it had prior to airing).
I've not read a single Kadokawa/KyoAni source that refers to it as a second season. Some refer to the 14 new episodes as the "2009 edition," but the most common term is "re-airing." I blame the international licensors for having to use the term "second season" to make a release of the new episodes.

As for little promotion, I'm shocked that could be said. There was promotion all throughout the 3 years in-between airings. From the announcement/video on 2007/7/7, the"second season cancelled, 'new animation' start!" image on 2007/12/18, the inclusion of a new key visual in April 2008's The Sneaker, the interviews in The Sneaker and Newtype through the summer of 2008, the announcement of Haruhi-chan/Churuya-san as new franchises, the promotion in February/March 2009's Newtype magazines, the promotion of the "re-airing" on obis attached to manga/novels, and so on. It may not have been publicized as much internationally, but it was really promoted when you look at it.

If my tone comes off as harsh, I apologize. This "little promotional re-airing" bit is heavily false and keeps getting spread around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
For my own selfish reasons, though, there's nothing I'd rather see from them right now than more Haruhi.
I don't think that's selfish of you. I think it's perfectly reasonable of you. It's perfectly reasonable for you to want to see one of your favorite anime shows animated to completion, particularly given that it's very popular and sells great.
Given the conclusion to the trilogy last year, there's no doubt Haruhi is my absolute top desire to see animated in a new season. I'm enjoying Hyouka a lot (even seriously considering importing all 11 volumes), and I have a good suspicion I'll enjoy Chuunibyou, but there's nothing like Haruhi. I was very disappointed during the announcements last Fall for these two properties, but recent events/thoughts have given me hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Now I get that there is an annoyance with the nature of KyoAni's productions never reaching completion, and on some level I can sympathize and agree with the argument. As a fan, I would feel pretty pissed that my favorite shows end up getting stuck in limbo without any hope of seeing them to their conclusion. That said, KyoAni taking a page out of SHAFT's book would be the worst thing that could happen. I personally would not happy at all seeing them pulling the same crap that SHAFT does. Examples like JC Staff, Bones or Sunrise are much better and preferable IMHO.

On why they decide to restrict their productions to so few, I think it might have to do with their teams seeking a more relaxed and comfortable working conditions, so that they give each work they do enough time and care to see it completion (as opposed to SHAFT's impossible working conditions and counter productive ''motivation'' of ''We must complete this before the dead line, since we have 5 more shows to work on later!''...). Is this the best way to go about thing? In some ways, it's good for the quality since like ultimatemegax had pointed out, it insures (or at least promotes) their team to place more effeort into their products. But on other fronts, it probably isn't the best way, since it doesn't allow for much room for experimentation with different shows and constantly forces them to play safe most of the time with targeting one crowd, as well as not being that good at planing for sequels.

So why don't they expand then, to help with making things a bit more balanced? I think part of it is that their teams are more comfortable with how things are right now (they might be able to handle this level of work and not more without a clear drop in quality, or that they simply think they wont be able to gaunraty a constant string of hits over a long term period of time), and another part is that they might have some different plans for the future (Kaioshin mentioned that they might consider seeking a Kadokawa, which might be the next logical step for them ...) so expansion at this period of time might not be in the studio's future best interest.
Animation DO has announced their first solo project (nothing other than that announcement has been made), so this could be a way to "expand" without expanding the studio itself.

I myself would not want to see KyoAni go to be like J.C. Staff, Bones, or even Sunrise. Having to sub-contract a great amount of work outside leads to a lot of animation quality mistakes like what has happened with Natsuiro Kiseki's latest episodes or during the final stretch of Index II due to multiple projects at once. By focusing their intent on one project, there's no doubt it gets the attention it needs to be well-animated. With the increases in quality seen in K-On!! (somewhat arguable, but you can notice a huge shift from S1), Nichijou (especially in the animation portion), and Hyouka (again, focusing on hand-drawn animation), these works have shown the main reason why they've worked on one thing at a time. I'm eager to see how the Hyouka BDs look as it might be a rare show animated in 1080p similar to how Kanon was one of the first in 720p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
That all said, I'm sort of with Triple R on one point

I think that the current way things had been going had been very unfair to Haruhi fans, who had played a strong part in supporting KyoAni in becoming what it is today. Certainly, I don't think they are obliged or forced to make a new series, but the way the older fans had been treated after putting faith in the studio makes me find it hard to not side with the fans on this one ...
As a big Haruhi fan, it's difficult to see other franchises become animated when you know that another season would sell well. I'd be on an incredible high for weeks if it was announced. I've had a motto that sums up my thoughts of the medium: "Anime is something to watch in between Haruhi seasons."Given how P.A. Works immediately began work on a new Hanasaku Iroha work, it makes me feel even worse. But I think their decisions happen for a reason. We don't know the reasoning behind these decisions yet, and so we feel discouraged. I can see valid arguments from both viewpoints, but I can't pick one or the other for me. It is what it is. Nothing I personally can do will change that.
__________________

“Nyahaha! Then we move to round two, Hero! ★”
Chuunibyou translation: 1st novel - OUT/ 2nd novel - OUT
ultimatemegax is offline  
Old 2012-05-15, 00:11   Link #1020
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goggen View Post
I guess this is where our disagreement lies. I don't believe we have a right to anything.
We don't have a literal legal right to actually get it. But we do have a right to expect it. That's a nuanced difference, admittedly, but it's a key one.

Typically, when a narrative sells well, and there's clearly more story left to tell, people expect to see that story done to completion. And almost always those expectations are met. So this creates a precedent, and hence a right to expect that precedent to be followed. Simply put, why should Haruhi fans not get what ZnT fans get, or what Shana fans get, or what Natsume fans get? Why should Haruhi fans be treated worse than those other fans?

There's a precedent in anime that when an anime based on a LN, manga, or VN sells well, you will usually see it adapted to completion, so anime fans have a right to expect that to be the case for their well-selling favorite properties.

Like Kaioshin_Sama said, this is just healthy expectation and anticipation. It's perfectly reasonable and normal, and nobody should be faulted for it. So in that sense, yes, Haruhi fans have a right to expect to see more Haruhi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RegalStar View Post
You don't.
Of course we do. Are you seriously arguing that people don't have a right to hold reasonable expectations based on precedent?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
I think that SHAFT is a really bad example to bring up when arguing for KyoAni to expand or increase their productions. If anything, they work better as a reason against the case.
Honestly, I disagree. Has SHAFT improved or gotten worse since increasing their productions? How does Madoka Magica, Nisemonogatari, and Denpa Onna look in comparison to older SHAFT works? The studio has improved markedly since increasing their productions, imo.

Part of the reason why I've compared KyoAni to SHAFT is because those two studios, unlike Sunrise, JC Staff, and Bones, have each developed their own distinctive visual style that you tend to see in all of their works (with slight variations of course). Not taking anything away from Sunrise, JC Staff, or Bones (all three have done some great work, especially Sunrise, imo), but when people think of KyoAni or SHAFT they do tend to think of a very specific animation/visual style.

KyoAni and SHAFT also both strike me as "artsy" studios, for lack of a better term perhaps. I like how SHAFT doesn't feel to me like it's a "Factory Studio", even though its production output in some years is like that of a factory studio.


SHAFT of course has its issues, as you alluded to. But even with them, I really like the overall direction that SHAFT has taken in over the past couple of years.

SHAFT has built up two very high-profile properties (Madoka Magica and the Monogatari series) and has chosen to put a high priority on both. I like that approach. I think its a very fan-friendly approach. Basically, SHAFT now goes where their customers and fans want them to go. And that's a mark of a good entertainment company, imo.


Quote:

That all said, I'm sort of with Triple R on one point

I think that the current way things had been going had been very unfair to Haruhi fans, who had played a strong part in supporting KyoAni in becoming what it is today. Certainly, I don't think they are obliged or forced to make a new series, but the way the older fans had been treated after putting faith in the studio makes me find it hard to not side with the fans on this one ...
Thank you for that.

And you're right, Haruhi played a strong part in making KyoAni what it is today. I dare say that a lot of people became KyoAni fans due first and foremost to Haruhi.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post


As a big Haruhi fan, it's difficult to see other franchises become animated when you know that another season would sell well. I'd be on an incredible high for weeks if it was announced. I've had a motto that sums up my thoughts of the medium: "Anime is something to watch in between Haruhi seasons."Given how P.A. Works immediately began work on a new Hanasaku Iroha work, it makes me feel even worse. But I think their decisions happen for a reason. We don't know the reasoning behind these decisions yet, and so we feel discouraged. I can see valid arguments from both viewpoints, but I can't pick one or the other for me. It is what it is. Nothing I personally can do will change that.
I want to thank you for your very informative and extremely civil posts.

At a cold, pragmatic level, I get the reasons why KyoAni is doing what it's doing. But in my view, good companies at least sometimes put their existing fans/customers first, even if slightly greener pastures might conceivably be elsewhere.

With that in mind, if we get more Haruhi within the next couple of years, most if not all of my complaints will disappear, and I'll become a happy camper.

But if we never get more Haruhi, then I think Haruhi fans will have every right to be upset with KyoAni and/or Kadokawa. Hopefully it won't come to that.
__________________

Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-05-15 at 00:35.
Triple_R is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
studios

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.