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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 55 43.65%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 30.95%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 17.46%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 5.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.79%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.79%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.79%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-14, 05:55   Link #141
Jimmy C
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I meant she might have been expecting Kiri to have a plan to blow up the plane after it landed and she escaped. If any bees or ghouls got out of the resulting inferno, let the church or MA deal with it.
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:09   Link #142
Qilin
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I guess this marks the end of Kiritsugu's back story.

Man, I knew something was going to happen to Natalia on that plane, given by the abundance of death flags she managed to trip by that point, but I never figured that it would be Kiritsugu who would pull the trigger. But really. Something like this would have eventually happened regardless due to their directly opposing ideals.

Natalia's priority is self-preservation. As such, in times of danger she would prioritize her own life above anyone else. In contrast, Kiritsugu's priority is saving as many lives as he can, albeit doing so in a somewhat morally questionable manner. In other words, he will do exactly what is necessary to save the most lives in a pinch, regardless of who he kills or what he has to do. In a sense, you could call their philosophies to be direct opposites. A clash between the two was only inevitable.

After this, I find that calling Kiritsugu a monster or machine is much closer to the truth than it initially seems.
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Old 2012-05-14, 08:37   Link #143
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero7090 View Post
even at 20m the water is still like concrete?
20m while flying at over 100kph at least. Yes, it'll be like hitting concrete.

Quote:
it is better than a plan with 0% survival rate.
The problem is, any plan that gives Natalia even slim chances of survival gives the bees and ghouls much better chances of survival. They can survive impacts that would kill her. That was unacceptable to Kiri.

Quote:
how can the plane fly when kiri got the stinger?
Actually, there's no way an airliner can stay level at 20m above sea level anyway. Its autopilot isn't a terrain conforming type like on military planes. That's simply too expensive and normally unnecessary. An instant of instability could cause the plane to dip more than 20m before the autopilot could correct, crashing the plane, probably before Natalia can escape.
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Old 2012-05-14, 10:02   Link #144
Hamster
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Well, at least she died content.

It would have been a real tragedy if she never knew what hit her.
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Old 2012-05-14, 10:31   Link #145
Dr. Casey
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Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
The main story takes place in 1994. Kiritsugu looks about 15 or 16 in this episode so I'd imagine that it takes place in 1981, or somewhere very close. We know that Heart of Freaks takes place in 1978 and Kiritsugu was already Natalia's "Maiya" by then.
Wait... Kiritsugu's in his late 20s during the main story? I was guessing very early 40s. (I thought he was born around 1954, that Part 1 of the flashback was during the mid-1960s, and that Part 2 was during his late teens or early twenties, so about the 1973-1976 range.) My idea of the timeline is all messed up. ._.
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Old 2012-05-14, 11:33   Link #146
ChronoReverse
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Originally Posted by zero7090 View Post
even at 20m the water is still like concrete? and still there is chance for her survive even extremely low, no? it is better than a plan with 0% survival rate.
The plane is still moving forward at like 400mph. If you don't splat on the fuselage or get sucked into the intake, you get to slam into the water at terminal (literally in this case) velocity.


As for survival, Natalie would go for maximum survival rate which is to try to land the plane and let the ghouls get out. Kiritsugu couldn't allow that.
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Old 2012-05-14, 12:20   Link #147
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Wait... Kiritsugu's in his late 20s during the main story? I was guessing very early 40s. (I thought he was born around 1954, that Part 1 of the flashback was during the mid-1960s, and that Part 2 was during his late teens or early twenties, so about the 1973-1976 range.) My idea of the timeline is all messed up. ._.
the first flashback was in 1978.
the main show is set in 1994

if kiri was 12 to 14 in 1978 then he would be about 28 to 30 in 1994.
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Old 2012-05-14, 12:54   Link #148
Jimmy C
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I wonder about some of Natalia's thoughts. A few pages ago, a poster mentioned that, in the novel, she thought Kiri was waiting in a NY hotel when they had their last conversation. But, if the conversation they had was a faithful adaption, then she clearly expected him to do something rather than sit around and wait anxiously.
Was she expecting him to have a plan to extract her after landing, before blowing up the plane? Was she waiting for him to tell her he was going to kill her to save the city?
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Old 2012-05-14, 13:33   Link #149
Craxuan
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I'll just spoiler this just in case:

Spoiler for LN:


Natalie probably just wants to talk to Kiritsugu for the last time.
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Old 2012-05-14, 14:02   Link #150
chaos_alfa
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Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
Well, at least she died content.

It would have been a real tragedy if she never knew what hit her.
In the light novel
Spoiler for :

Spoiler for Light Novel Quote:
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Old 2012-05-14, 17:48   Link #151
Xagzan
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Good god, Fate zero, you just love to stamp on my heart, huh?

Poor Natalia indeed. But even more, poor Kiritsugu. This is where your unshakeable ideals take you Kerry.

And what a GREAT catharsis at the end. At that point I was worried he wasn't going to show any emotion whatsoever, which was a stark contrast to how I was feeling, so it was gratifying as hell to see him just burst like that. And those twisted, shattered expressions his face kept making, let you know just how much he was being torn apart inside by trying to hold steady to such unnatural ideals even in the face of such agony of losing his loved one. But he has to, because that is what's "right," after all.

Of course, he does, but that cracked, my-soul-has-been-murdered look in his eyes, and his attempts at reassuring and reaffirming himself by talking to "Shirley," not to mention how he screams at himself to shut up once he starts crying, as if he's not allowed to feel grief when he's just upheld his beliefs and saved innocent lives, it's gut-wrenching stuff.

Must go watch happy things now T_T
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Old 2012-05-14, 19:22   Link #152
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
Good god, Fate zero, you just love to stamp on my heart, huh?

Poor Natalia indeed. But even more, poor Kiritsugu. This is where your unshakeable ideals take you Kerry.

And what a GREAT catharsis at the end. At that point I was worried he wasn't going to show any emotion whatsoever, which was a stark contrast to how I was feeling, so it was gratifying as hell to see him just burst like that. And those twisted, shattered expressions his face kept making, let you know just how much he was being torn apart inside by trying to hold steady to such unnatural ideals even in the face of such agony of losing his loved one. But he has to, because that is what's "right," after all.

Of course, he does, but that cracked, my-soul-has-been-murdered look in his eyes, and his attempts at reassuring and reaffirming himself by talking to "Shirley," not to mention how he screams at himself to shut up once he starts crying, as if he's not allowed to feel grief when he's just upheld his beliefs and saved innocent lives, it's gut-wrenching stuff.

Must go watch happy things now T_T
I know what you mean. It was devastating to watch indeed.

Spoiler for Long:


Got a little carried away there, but that's just how complex and fascinating Kiritsugu's character is. Speaking of which, this is definitely a good time for those who haven't checked out Season 1's Sound Drama to do so, since it shows the events which took place in Kiritsugu's life between this episode and the beginning of the series, which definitely add to his character (as well as Iri's). A shame they couldn't animate that as well.
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Old 2012-05-14, 19:54   Link #153
Grey
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
After this, I find that calling Kiritsugu a monster or machine is much closer to the truth than it initially seems.
I'll go with "hero."
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Old 2012-05-14, 20:11   Link #154
DragoZERO
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Episode relevant:

By: Tamachi Kuwa
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Old 2012-05-15, 02:48   Link #155
Qilin
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I'll go with "hero."
Indeed. He is a "hero" in the truest sense.

He is literally a person who lives for the sake others. He is willing to make any sacrifice if it means saving the most lives. He is an individual so enamored by this particular brand of "heroism" that he is nearly devoid of any ego, which is to say that he lacks a sense of "self". He made himself into a machine which devotes all its energies to save as many lives as he can. Simply put, he is a manifestation of altruism taken to its logical extreme. I won't comment on the the pros and cons of his utilitarian approach to problem solving, but all I can say is that it is but a product of the doctrine of extreme altruism he has held all his life.

Perhaps the only anchor that keeps him from losing himself completely is Irisviel and Ilya, and I'm not even sure of that.

I just find it ironic that the more he dedicates himself to his altruistic ideals, the less human he becomes. As he discards more and more of his "ego" to achieve his goals, the more he resembles a machine. Natalia even called this ability to dissociate his "ego" from his actions a unique talent of his.
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Last edited by Qilin; 2012-05-15 at 03:02.
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Old 2012-05-15, 10:20   Link #156
DragoZERO
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I'm surprised the term "superhero" hasn't been used yet. Has that been intentional?
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Old 2012-05-15, 10:53   Link #157
jeroz
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He's the hero the world deserves, but not the one it needs right now.
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Old 2012-05-15, 11:47   Link #158
kemal_1915
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People always miss the main point, don't they?
groaning about all the alternative methods for saving Natalie is useless to understand what Gen wants to say
in these two eps, he wanted to ask the audiences (readers):"You are willing to sacrifice one to save many people. BUT, what if the "one" is your loved one and the "many" is mere strangers?"
Yes, I believe that are many ways to bring Natalie back from the situation
but this is dodging the question and leave it unanswered
Gen really wanted to slam the question onto our face and force us to answer it
thinking about the plot-hole and alternatives is ok but we should focus on what he wanted to present
he also showed us his opinion that both "yes" (kill Natalie) or "no" (let Shirley go) will make him (us) suffer
then, what is that "justice"? where that "justice" is found? Should we still stick with that "justice"?
this is only an age-old moral dilemma and re-told by Gen
and I think he is good at doing it
10/10
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Old 2012-05-15, 12:08   Link #159
Craxuan
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The fact that he couldn't be proud with his own chosen path is the biggest flaw of Kiritsugu. From hindsight, I admire criminals and villains that they could just follow their heart's desire and don't give a shit even if it meant horrible consequences. How many of us could actually do or accomplish what we wanted? Kiritsugu regretted every step he takes, and that is simply not something human is designed to endure forever.

Spoiler for UBW spoiler:


Btw, my answer would be my loved ones first of course. Hardly a hero stance, but that's what it means to be human. And sometimes being human can be more heroic than any hero will ever be.
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Old 2012-05-15, 12:21   Link #160
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The traditional Western superheroes tend to try to save their loved ones first with the belief that if they can't even save one person, how can they save everyone?

When they fail to save that one person....bad things happen. Or they spend effort to change time and space to make it so they can save that person.

Except when it is used as a defining moment. The moment of regret, or push that makes them a superhero. The "never again" stance. Or the "this is the reason I fight" motto.

By traditional I mean the older superheroes. Superman, Batman, Spiderman...that lot.
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