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Old 2012-04-29, 22:33   Link #5261
Renall
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I went ahead and posted a more... refined version of the idea in the Spoilers thread, but in case some folks aren't reading that for various reasons the post is linked here, to save on a Youtube embed (no spoilers in the post linked). It's also linked in my signature.

Of course the most reasonable objection to this is the one Bern mentions right at the start of the "argument," so consider this entertainment-purposes only.
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Old 2012-04-30, 07:09   Link #5262
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Despite that, it really is a remarkable piece of logic, very fitting for the spirit of Umineko. Truly worthy of applause.
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:10   Link #5263
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The thing it turns around is of course a single definition, which is what makes it inherently silly as I'm sure the intended definition was the commonly-understood one (this is how it works in my profession, anyway). I did like the snaking train of thought which leads to "the cousins' room is defined not as a physical space, but as 'the room containing everyone else.'" It almost sounds like a valid argument.
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Old 2012-04-30, 15:28   Link #5264
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It made my day!

"In that single moment, Erika sealed the entire universe from the inside."
"It's so like you Bern, to have such powerful furniture and throw it away!"

Although Beato's thoughts that led to the discussion in the first place is another thing that is often discussed: If Battler was ever truly in the Logic Error to begin with...
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Old 2012-05-02, 12:06   Link #5265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The thing it turns around is of course a single definition, which is what makes it inherently silly as I'm sure the intended definition was the commonly-understood one (this is how it works in my profession, anyway). I did like the snaking train of thought which leads to "the cousins' room is defined not as a physical space, but as 'the room containing everyone else.'" It almost sounds like a valid argument.
Yeah, it's not so impressive as a 'trick', because after all Umineko is full of silly word-play like that, so it's pretty common in that sense, yet it is rather marvellous as a conception, and a beautiful piece of twisted logic. Rather than the actual trick you employed, it is the train of thought you use to turn it around.

Okay, its only weak part would be Kanon's disappearance form the closet, but I think the self-sarcasm in the end makes up for it adequately. (Hillarious, by the way).
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Old 2012-05-02, 15:58   Link #5266
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The actual logic is reasonably sound:
  • Suggest Erika's location is restricted.
  • Offer an alternative which permits Erika to enter Battler's room even so.
  • Extrapolate from Erika's liberation to permit Kanon's liberation.
But yeah, it can't cover Kanon's disappearance any better than anything else, which is silly.
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Old 2012-05-03, 08:33   Link #5267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
But yeah, it can't cover Kanon's disappearance any better than anything else, which is silly.
I think I have come up with a satisfying alternative to explain Kanon's 'disappearance' from the closet. But it's going to require a long explanation:

Spoiler for Alternative Solution for Logic Error:


What do you think, everyone?
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Old 2012-05-03, 10:02   Link #5268
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While your solution may work, It has no love.

Also that means that the detective didn't exist many times either, but he never was aware of it. As the detective was never aware that he himself (Battler) "disappeared" while asleep , your argument is invalid. Clues about his own disappearance must have been shown, which were not.

Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-05-03 at 10:41.
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Old 2012-05-03, 11:29   Link #5269
Captain Bluebeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
While your solution may work, It has no love.

Also that means that the detective didn't exist many times either, but he never was aware of it. As the detective was never aware that he himself (Battler) "disappeared" while asleep , your argument is invalid. Clues about his own disappearance must have been shown, which were not.
Actually, it is that red that is invalid. To begin with, whether Battler (who was never the detective in the first place) disappeared or not has absolutely nothing to do with this, after all, not even Knox forbids the 'detective' dying or disappearing.

My theory's purpose is to present an alternative solution to Kanon's disappearance, which it did. Whether the same pattern can be applied to Battler, or any other character in the story, which is natural because all of them must have slept at some point in their lives, I assume, is completely irrelevant.
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Old 2012-05-03, 11:38   Link #5270
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An admirable effort, Bluebeard, but if you want to start dragging unconsciousness into it I think that I can do you one better:

As the red text clearly indicates, Erika sealed herself into the cousins' room, which remained sealed until the resolution of the Logic Error. Let us accept this premise as true that Erika was in the room and, rather than define "the cousins' room" as the universe, let's just presume that Erika could not leave the cousins' room instead. Yet the red is unquestionably true regarding the Logic Error, so how does that work?

Well, it's quite simple, really: Erika fell asleep in the cousins' room. In her dream, she imagined herself to be in the hallway outside the room she had actually sealed herself inside. Dream-Erika dream-murdered the Dream-First Twilight victims other than Battler. Then, Dream-Erika dream-proceeded to Dream-Battler's room to look for him, dream-repairing the dream-chain lock. Note that the red truth refers to the third room Erika chose to seal as "this guest room" which is insufficient to adequately define the guestroom as "the physical non-dream room in which Battler was found at the First Twilight." It is possible that the room in question refers to "the dream version of the room in which Battler was found at the First Twilight as imagined by Erika," as nothing in Battler and Erika's agreement on seals prevents Erika from sealing any room that she wishes. This also explains the way the seals could be instantaneously applied and how cleanly Erika could get away with the murders: She was dreaming them, and her dream permitted her to commit the murders without the victims attempting to resist her.

Erika is rational, therefore her dream mostly follows rational rules when she is paying attention to it. Thus, when she repaired the room's chain lock it was not possible for any dream-being within it to leave without re-setting the chain, because this is one of Erika's compulsive fixations and thus the chain must remain set at all times. Thus, Dream-Erika "knows" that Dream-Battler cannot escape the room without re-setting the chain, and Dream-Battler must obey this rule to escape.

So why Kanon? He is young, quiet, and suspicious, and he may have been spying on Erika earlier in the day. In her paranoia, therefore, Erika believes that she is seeing Kanon everywhere out of the corner of her eye. Indeed, Dream-Kanon manifests himself to let Dream-Battler out of the guestroom by taking his place. In the real world, Kanon is locked inside the cousins' room, but so is Erika; Dream-Kanon, however, could be anywhere, as he is a manifestation of Erika's paranoid Id.

Kanon's disappearance is thus simply resolved: Erika woke up before she could check the closet. Dream-Kanon ceased existing at the same time as the guestroom and Erika's entire dreaming state; thus, Beatrice can state that he does not exist there, because there is no longer a "there" at all.

Now then, a few issues: Erika clearly refers to "bodies" in red. However, it is not clear that she refers to "physical bodies," and even if she did, in a dream-state the dream-bodies are physical to the apprehension of Dream-Erika and thus indistinguishable from reality, as indeed it would be impossible for Erika to tell the difference between her own reality and that of a fictional dream. Is that not, ultimately, Meta-Erika's entire existential crisis: The realization that all of her worlds are but a dream existence?

Likewise, the notion that only the persons may use their names. This is not an issue because the dream-entities Erika associates with herself, Battler, and Kanon do in fact indistinguishably resemble the exact real thing, and Erika has no way to verify the difference between the "waking dream" of the Dawn board fiction and the dream of the Logic Error.

"But the notion that the Logic Error is a dream with arbitrary rules is not supported in the text!" Oh isn't it!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdadelta to Battler inside the Logic Error
This room is a closed room created from the inside. The seals on the windows are intact, so there can be no escape from there. Of course, there is no way to escape by leaving through the bathroom. ......I'll make it simple. There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset.
Let's not forget the hand-eating window banshees, the inexplicable dimension-shifting, and the distant voices who do not respond to Battler's cries. Logic Errors are dreams, and thus to put Battler into a Logic Error Erika herself must have been dreaming.

In the "reality" of ep6, Piece-Erika is a mentally unstable girl with a hyperactive but hyperrational imagination, an inescapable fear of Kanon, and a compulsive desire to keep rooms sealed closed. Everyone is completely fine. This also explains the letter Erika found that no one should have been able to plant: It was part of her dream, therefore she found it there manifest from nothing in her own paranoia in much the same way Kanon manifested to rescue Battler from nowhere. That's just how dreams are.
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Old 2012-05-03, 12:18   Link #5271
Captain Bluebeard
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Allow me to say that you totally nailed it! There is absolutely no contradiction to this theory, all the points are valid, furthermore, it is supported by actual quotes of the tale. I take my pirate hat off to you.

My only objection would be the letter. Since it is a dream, we can argue that it is a subconscious image, an abstract thought and therefore does not need to follow any rational order, just does so by coincidence. So, no Knox, no Dine, no mystery, no fair.

However, so far, you have skillfully presented a way for this to be a perfectly legitimate mystery in Dream-Reality layers, so it should be solvable from a Meta perspective. Therefore, the same thing should apply for the letter as well.

A minor issue, actually, since we can go by the classical solution in this one and say Dream-Battler who was playing dead went there and placed it there.
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Old 2012-05-03, 13:40   Link #5272
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Nice one Renall. It could even satisfy "clues presented" by saying "well logic error made the game end earlier than intended... you dug your own grave Erika, because I would reveal this is a dream later, but you went for endgame early (again), ahaha.wav"
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Old 2012-05-15, 04:46   Link #5273
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Just a random thought...
The 'philosophical zombie' theory could fit quite nicely in Doctor Nanjo's murder in EP3. No, actually, it could pretty easily explain every trick in the whole series if we suppose there actually is an 18th person hiding on Rokenjima, who also happens to be a sleepwalker....
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Old 2012-05-16, 09:41   Link #5274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Just a random thought...
The 'philosophical zombie' theory could fit quite nicely in Doctor Nanjo's murder in EP3. No, actually, it could pretty easily explain every trick in the whole series if we suppose there actually is an 18th person hiding on Rokenjima, who also happens to be a sleepwalker....
A body which does not exist as a person, given the definition of a person which clearly is meant to include only mental existences?

Well-played, mon capitan.
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Old 2012-05-16, 09:53   Link #5275
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nice try, however:
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game and No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!!
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Old 2012-05-16, 10:17   Link #5276
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
nice try, however:
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game and No more than 17 humans exist on this island!! That excludes any 18th person. In short, this 18th person X does not exist!! This applies to all games!!!
A philosophical zombie does not "exist" as a person. A sleeping or mindless human body is a "human life form" but it isn't a person per the definition of a person as a personality or mental state, which it must be to accommodate the existence of Shannon/Kanon.

You're conflating the two statements as meaning the same thing. A sleepwalking philosophical zombie "human life form" can exist and influence the game without being a person, because it lacks a mental state necessary to be counted as a "person!" The use of "life form" is clearly meant to provide a biological distinction, and a key factor of a philosophical zombie is that it is impossible to distinguish a philosophical zombie from oneself on a biological level. The sole difference is that the philosophical zombie has no mental state, merely the appearance of consciousness.

Alternately, the sleepwalker is one of the existing characters in the game, but in a non-existing mental state which prevents them from being described as the person bearing their name.

Or perhaps Shannon and Kanon are the only existences on the island at all, and everyone other than them is a philosophical zombie.
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Old 2012-05-16, 10:49   Link #5277
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......Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.


So if "you" don't join us and end up dead in the sea, there are 16 people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Or perhaps Shannon and Kanon are the only existences on the island at all, and everyone other than them is a philosophical zombie.
Doesn't really work though, because:

Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.


Someone can not be alive, but still exist. But it is impossible for someone to be alive but not be existing.
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Old 2012-05-16, 11:04   Link #5278
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Battler is the only person on the island who actually exists. Everything else is his imagination and all red refers to the events of Battler's imagination.
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Old 2012-05-16, 11:10   Link #5279
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
......Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-
There are 17 people.
Does not apply to ep1-4.
Quote:
Doesn't really work though, because:

Ushiromiya Battler. I will now...kill you.
And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere.
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.


Someone can not be alive, but still exist. But it is impossible for someone to be alive but not be existing.
You can be alive and not exist, in the context of Umineko, if existence is conditioned on emergent personhood. Kanon never ceases to be alive while Shkanon's body is alive, but he can stop existing. "Dead" as used in the context of Umineko appears to actually mean "not existing" and has no bearing on being biologically alive.

Also Battler could be a dream of Beatrice's she is about to "kill" by waking up, thus being "alive" in-dream but not "existing" as an independent entity.

Dualism just fucks everything up. I can go on all day.
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Old 2013-07-25, 19:01   Link #5280
Funyarinpa
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Hi, first-time poster here.

I need some advice... I just completed episode 6, so far so good. Really entertaining and fun to read. The problem is, as embarrassing as it sounds, I still haven't figured out anything.
Spoiler for point of view:


Any advice on how I should continue?
Someone else told me to reread 1-4 and solve the murders. I've forgotten most of the details in those, so that would take a while.
I guess just reading 7 wouldn't do me any good?

Thanks in advance!
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