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View Poll Results: Aquarion EVOL - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 7 18.92%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 7 18.92%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 32.43%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 13.51%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 10.81%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 5.41%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-05-16, 02:21   Link #101
Zuul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
She didn't "state" it, and anyway, the conversation didn't end there. The flashback in ep 20 was the same conversation where she clarified what she had said earlier.


...you didn't pay attention, did you?
I mean unlike Mikono's feelings are supposed to. Bad wording.

I don't really see strong feelings coming from Mikono because of the bad writting, but I ackowledge they are probably supposed to be there.

The point still stands. Shushu has been abusing Amata the same since day one, while he should have taken a stronger hating to him as the story progressed. it didn't happen this way and it's another point making it look not really consistent.

People would not be scratching their head over it if it had been well written.

But it's a small point easy to ignore at least.

Last edited by Zuul; 2012-05-16 at 02:40.
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Old 2012-05-16, 04:37   Link #102
kuromitsu
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Again, it doesn't work like that. If Shushu is an actual animal (that it seems to be, what gender is it, anyway...), then it must have a mind of its own. If we accept this, then its whole behavior makes sense. Shushu attacked Amata in the gondola when Amata put his hands on her shoulders to steady her. Shushu could've interpreted this as an actual physical attack, or it could've been simply a jealous/protective reaction toward a guy touching Mikono for whatever reason (didn't help that Mikono was all blushy and stuff). Either version would be in line with its later behavior, both toward Amata and everyone else.

Obviously it would've helped if this was established earlier, but I think ep 19 made it clear that they'd been building up to this "surprise" revelation all this time. More and more it seems to me that they were deliberately trying to make Mikono's feelings look vague (which is pretty much the only sensible explanation for a number of things), so it would be a) more in line with her personal development that we're seeing now, and b) would keep people guessing. And it actually would've worked if there was more attention paid to her blah blah blah I think we've been through this enough times.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-05-16 at 05:16.
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Old 2012-05-16, 07:38   Link #103
Arya
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A bit late, but my connection died yesterday night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I don't think they actually "thought otherwise" - I think they just botched it. For one, it's getting very obvious that Okada (and I'm going to blame her for all this because she is the head writer) just can't keep focus, definitely not among the cast. Maybe she really wanted to do an ensemble cast. Maybe she wanted to be subtle and ended up being too subtle, I don't know. (Actually, there are a number of pretty well-done "subtle" scenes, the problem is that they rarely ever have any follow-up that is not completely disconnected. :/ ) And two, there are all other problems that we've discussed about a million times. ^^;;
That "otherwise" was more a rhetorical question, but I can agree with you. Surely she didn't aim to an ensemble cast, because another thing EVOL is lacking is the interaction between characters that don't belong to the "same arc", if I can say it. The most evident is Mikono and Ceyenne or Zessica who practically never spoke seriously with any one. But basically each subplot rarely intersected with another, or not so often to build up EVOL as a whole. (Meeting Triple_R's less than the sum of its part here ). To the point that some characters looked, IIRC you said that somewhere before, having two modes: playing and stand-by mode. That's a bit worst than simply botching it**.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
When I look at the writing in Evol so far on a characters level, there are two words that keep coming to my mind, and they're "Star Driver". Star Driver had the exact same issues (less atrociuos, though): it started strong, built a nice settei with the three main charas in an interesting relationship... and then eventually the focus of the writing started to meander, getting caught up in side characters (very interesting side charas, but side charas nonetheless), and in the meanwhile the main trio, even the main character himself, did pretty much nothing of particular interest. And so when the end came around and the writers came to their senses it was too late, most people were emotionally uninvested in the main trio, the revelations felt rushed and inconsequential. It was fabulous, though. ^^;; And Star Driver was written by Enokido Youji, the guy who had also written Utena and Ouran Host Club and has my eternal respect for both. Star Driver had so much potential and ended up mediocre because of these issues.
Star Driver, mmm, ah, I dropped it after the first episode. So it seems I made a right choice once in while.
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I dunno, I think they were pretty green? It's not like they were raburabu from the start (hell, they had exactly two moments of being even near to raburabu level, one was ruined by Kagura and the other involved Shushu trying to poke Amata's eyes out ^^;; and then was ruined by Kagura) Their relationship for most of the first half of the story was Amata pursuing Mikono, and Mikono being, well, Mikono about it. Then stuff happened and Amata got uncertain and took some steps back, while Mikono was confused and tried to figure herself out. And right now we're at the point of Mikono having figured herself out, mostly, but we don't know for certain what she decided; meanwhile Amata, being left alone, has no idea where he stands with Mikono anymore, and so is still struggling with his uncertainities. I think this is a pretty good progression that could have a nice resolution either way - it's just the overall execution that's been lacking, and this is where lack of focus and bad pacing comes into the picture. :/
Yep, probably I chose the wrong word. What I meant is that they were green at first, but basically that was love at first sight, or quasi-love at first sight. That was what I thought back in the day. And in retrospect I still think that it was the case***. Every cock-blocking they had was basically to evade to say it out loud. Because Amata never wavered, never. Mikono neither, in Mikono's way ok, but she never faltered. Saying stuffs like Oh, I feel I have to apologize to him, doesn't count. That ruined their counterparts, Kagura and Zessica, having basically no real role anymore in the polygon. The only real threat has been the reincarnations curs, ehm, legacy.

*** That would explain shushu constant behavior toward Amata. (I'm assuming it because I never payed much attention to Shushu ).

**Probably they are really aiming to an Amagami SS/YnS format where you can follow your favorite route without being bothered by another
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Old 2012-05-16, 09:25   Link #104
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
At this point, none of the pairings are good, of the main cast that is... I'm actually liking the side cast and not complete forgetting of Jin that tends to occur in shows when a character dies.
There's no question that Jin/Yunoha and Andy/MIX have both been handled really well. In a sense, that's to Okada's credit.

But in another way, it just makes the weaknesses within the love quadrangle (and with Amata/Mikono) that much more painfully obvious, due to sheer contrast.

Also, if you did virtually nothing else with Jin/Yunoha (aside from your obligatory flashback moments in a big finale, say) and simply resolved Andy/MIX one way or another, it would still be good. Basically, this is fine, it's "taken care of", the writers can pat themselves on the back on this.

Now it's time to try to sort out the love quadrangle. That means making a choice, imo.


If Okada is going to drag it out like this, then at least leave some real doubt in the viewer's mind as to who's going to end up with who (and this is ironically something Okada is really good at when she wants to be). Then the inherent drama/suspense within the love quadrangle would more than make up for how no pairing within it comes off as consistently well as Andy/MIX.

If Okada isn't going to have a real romantic conflict, then start developing Amata/Mikono already.

Right now, we're just being teased. It's not even a troll (which at least could be interesting or funny), it's just pure teasing.


Quote:
Mikono is just reaching infuriating levels of balls to the wall logic with how she acts with and around Amata, the need to have Cayenne point out Amata's caring was forgivable but the last episode really whiffed my candle with her expectation of Amata to sit around and wait for her to tell him *stuff*.
In fairness, I think I know what Okada is aiming for here.

I think that this is Mikono's way of basically telling the audience "I'm going to romantically confess to Amata next time I see him". Either that, or "I'm going to force the romance issue with Amata, and make him confess to me."

I'll be pretty shocked if that's not the implied meaning behind what she said to Amata. It's basically a wink from Okada to Amata/Mikono fans.

The thing is that this isn't how people go about developing their attraction towards someone in real life. Nobody says or hints "I'm going to confess to you after I get back from this long journey to find somebody". They either actually confess before they leave, or they privately plan to confess after they get back.

So what I think would be better here is if we were let in on Mikono's thoughts to confess to Amata (presuming that this is what Mikono means). That would give the audience something concrete to sink their teeth into, while still setting things up the way that I think Okada wants to.


But I guess it's also possible that Mikono's "I have to talk to you about stuff later" could be a classic death flag for her or Amata...


Quote:
Kagura? Kagura who?
He's truly become a pure plot device. Which is a shame, because it makes it really hard to take the AMK part of the love quadrangle seriously at all.


Quote:
Amata's a real trump card at this point and I don't understand how he puts up with all the shit thrown his way. I'd normally expect all his hardship to lead to a snap but this show has been so... inconsistent with episode to episode transitions on characters that its impossible to predict how a character is going to actually react to situation X from the episode prior. At least the majority of his lines are no longer "Mikono-san!" I guess that's an improvement?
Amata is a character that's really good at going along with the flow (i.e. adapting to whatever's going on around him), but he really struggles to direct the flow of events. He never snaps or truly panics, but he's not decisive/proactive enough either. Good follower, good soldier, poor leader.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuul View Post
I'll be honest. I really liked the little bit of interaction between Mikono and Kagura, from the stupid lion King wench tossing victory dance to Mikono unknowingly making naughty propositions to Kagura.

But they haven't been interacting enough for him to be the love rival he's supposed to be according to what the promo material is telling us.
Agreed.


Quote:
I suppose the best way to appreciate AmataxMikono is to only watch the episodes 1, 2 and 12. If you ignore the rest of the episodes, it's nice.
Is Episode 12 the one that my current avatar was taken from? If so, I agree. The episode that my avatar was taken from and the first couple of episodes are about the only ones where Amata/Mikono actually looked really, really cute.

But 3 good romance development episodes out of 20 leaves an awful lot to be desired. The romantic alternatives being tragically weak actually only exacerbates matters, leaving people wanting all around - Leaving people wanting for both straight-up romance and compelling romantic conflict.

Like I said to Vena, this would have been better off if the anime had made a clear choice between the two.

As is, I can't help but wonder if one of Okada/Kawamori wanted a serious love triangle, and if the other one wanted straight-up romance, and they settled on this messy compromise where you don't get the best of either world.
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Old 2012-05-16, 11:34   Link #105
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
But from all the recent clues it's now easier to guess, at least where Amata is concerned.
They spelled it out for us, for Mikono as far as Amata is concerned. Which is what has been making this drag so noticeable and annoying. Read on.

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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
She said "There's something I need to tell you. [I can't tell you now, but] I'll definitely tell you when I come back." And while we don't know what exactly she wants to tell him (for all we know she could dump him for whatever reason), the situation has certain overtones that are kind of hard to ignore.
That's my point. We know, to within a hair's breath, what she has to say to him. As I said above, she and the ShuShu feelings-explaining-plot-tool spelled it out for us moments after the scene concluded. Which is just facepalm worthy. Why? Because there's almost no *suspense* left to amuse and distract the audience.

It is a countdown to a countdown that we've been counting down on since the first episode. Its just blatant padding out of the drama angle such that Kagura has time to be a character again, Zessica's pure love can get resolved either by her death or death (let's be honest here, they're going for her dying or something just as bad). They added the scene just to remind the audience that, you know, Mikono loves Amata... just as the episode prior to it took the time to remind us that Mikono and Cayenne were siblings with *surprise dad*.

If you write something in a convincing manner, you don't need to *remind* the audience about it.

(Of note, this is under the assumption that they are playing this straight. Deconstruction tend to look sloppy until resolved.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Again, Mikono could've benefited a lot by getting more attention from the writers (seriously, Zessica got how much screentime doing nothing but wangsting her heart out in the most blatant ways, while Mikono got nothing), but I think things are starting to get more clear. Though it seems they planned the "Shushu revelation" to be a surprise of sorts (otherwise why do it this way?).
Neither character has benefited from the recent screen time they've been hit with; Mikono's screen time justifications have been contrived (surprise dad) and the "I'm going to find Fudo!" build up led to a montage and if I was supposed to be impressed by her perseverance to go around a city, riding on public transport, asking people if they'd seen him... I wasn't, Zessica's screen time has seemingly sadistic for the sake of moar pity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
In fairness, I think I know what Okada is aiming for here.

I think that this is Mikono's way of basically telling the audience "I'm going to romantically confess to Amata next time I see him". Either that, or "I'm going to force the romance issue with Amata, and make him confess to me."

I'll be pretty shocked if that's not the implied meaning behind what she said to Amata. It's basically a wink from Okada to Amata/Mikono fans.
My issue isn't on the meaning, we all seem to have reached the same conclusion as to the meaning, its the method and reason about why they went about it in this way. Reason being? Pad out the conclusion of the drama to be able to wrap up the loose ends with Kagura and Zessica. Why? Because they wrote them so poorly that they have no way to resolve those side issues without very *obviously* staggering out the romantic plot to allot time for this to be done.

Aside from that, it just plain unrealistic and annoying to me. IF she likes him, why the hell can she not just say it? Why does she need to goad Amata into confessing or delay her own confession if she knows what she's going to say? As I said before, she wasn't going to find Kagura so that *issue* is of no concern, and the scene that follows very clearly states where Mikono stands on her feelings towards Amata. So... why?

This just begs the thought of plot contrivance if not for the simple reason that, in any real situation and given their circumstances, Amata may well go off and die or not return. Its a war. They just lost a comrade. What does Mikono think her teammates, who she explicitly differentiates herself from, are going to do? Sit around in the safety of their rooms, picking their noses, until she triumphantly returns with Fudo? There was a good chance this past episode that Amata may well have been entrapped by his mother and Izumo's words. Izumo, as he demonstrated, could have easily grounded Amata indefinitely and even had him killed. It's all just crap if we're meant to be taking this straight.

If nothing else, Mikono's actions are getting a textbook juxtaposition treatment from Zessica who's actually shown giving a damn.
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Old 2012-05-16, 12:17   Link #106
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
They spelled it out for us, for Mikono as far as Amata is concerned. Which is what has been making this drag so noticeable and annoying. Read on.
No, that's not what I meant. It was never a question that she likes Amata, the only question was whether she likes him enough and/or whether Kagura would affect that. (And frankly, in a way it's still up in the air, if for nothing else then for the "shock value.") No, I meant this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vena View Post
My issue isn't on the meaning, we all seem to have reached the same conclusion as to the meaning, its the method and reason about why they went about it in this way.
This has been getting more clear recently, at least to me. It's not simply just drag, it's starting to make sense. I'm not sure if the writers are on the same track as me so I'd rather keep it to myself so I won't jinx it, but I think if you look at Mikono's development lately it's getting pretty clear. Obviously it hasn't been handled particularly well, due to Mikono getting shoved into the background way too often, but we've already discussed those issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's no question that Jin/Yunoha and Andy/MIX have both been handled really well. In a sense, that's to Okada's credit.
As for JinxYunoha, do you mean the romance itself, or in context? Because the romance itself was cute and handled pretty well, but in the context of the series it was pretty anvilicious due to the very short time they used to develop it. Andy x Mix is doing better in that aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'll be pretty shocked if that's not the implied meaning behind what she said to Amata. It's basically a wink from Okada to Amata/Mikono fans.
Or a set-up for a letdown. The writing in this show is unpredictable and illogical enough not to take it at face value. Still--

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The thing is that this isn't how people go about developing their attraction towards someone in real life. Nobody says or hints "I'm going to confess to you after I get back from this long journey to find somebody". They either actually confess before they leave, or they privately plan to confess after they get back.
Oh, but they do! I mean, probably not in real life, but I've seen this quite a few times. This is why that scene made me laugh, because it's supposed to be the other way around - the guy is about to go off to a war or something, and he tells the girl "I have something to tell you when I come back." I'm sure TVTropes has a spiffy name for this with some examples.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-05-16 at 12:28.
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Old 2012-05-16, 12:37   Link #107
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
As for JinxYunoha, do you mean the romance itself, or in context? Because while the romance itself was cute and handled pretty well, but in the context of the series it was pretty anvilicious due to the very short time they used to develop it. Andy x Mix is doing better in that aspect.
Well, I actually don't have a problem with supporting cast characters having some time in the spotlight, in order to develop them for their own sake. And I think that's what happened with Yunoha due to the JinXYunoha. Let's face it, Yunoha's character would have been pretty flat and under-utilized if not for the Jin/Yunoha romance.


The issue is, like I wrote several posts back, knowing where to draw the line. It's about the writers knowing when they've focused enough on the supporting cast and need to make their main characters the main characters again. It's fine for a two cour anime to have two or three episodes where the main characters are shunted into a supporting role while the supporting cast gets to shine. It's when this happens for four, five, six, etc... episodes at a time that it becomes a real issue, like it now is in Aquarion EVOL, imo.

If somebody had only watched Aquarion EVOL episodes 17 through 20, they'd swear that Andy was the male lead. I like Andy, but that's probably not the way it should be. Amata was clearly established as the male lead back in the first two episodes, and this anime seems to forget that sometimes.

But anyway, when talking about JinXYunoha, I mainly mean the romance itself. Andy/Mix has been better incorporated into the broader narrative, you're right about that.


Quote:
Or a set-up for a letdown. The writing in this show is unpredictable and illogical enough not to take it at face value.
Agreed.


Quote:
Oh, but they do! I mean, probably not in real life, but I've seen this quite a few times. This is why that scene made me laugh, because it's supposed to be the other way around - the guy is about to go off to a war of something, and he tells the girl "I have something to tell you when I come back." I'm sure TVTropes has a spiffy name for this with some examples.
You're right. It's very common in fiction, only gender-switched here, in a way that is pretty funny as you point out.

I'd just rather hear Mikono's thoughts confirming what we all suspect.
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Old 2012-05-16, 13:14   Link #108
Vena
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
No, that's not what I meant. It was never a question that she likes Amata, the only question was whether she likes him enough and/or whether Kagura would affect that. (And frankly, in a way it's still up in the air, if for nothing else then for the "shock value.")

This has been getting more clear recently, at least to me. It's not simply just drag, it's starting to make sense. I'm not sure if the writers are on the same track as me so I'd rather keep it to myself so I won't jinx it, but I think if you look at Mikono's development lately it's getting pretty clear. Obviously it hasn't been handled particularly well, due to Mikono getting shoved into the background way too often, but we've already discussed those issues.
See, this is a bit suspect because for a long time the story was focused on Amata acting towards Mikono, whereas she was in her perpetual Kagura/Amata limbo. The thing with ShuShu's reveal builds on something that we had already gone over in Ep. 9, where Mikono is confronted (by Sazanka then) about dating Amata. The scene is fairly similar to what we have later with Yunoha and ShuShu in Ep. 19, but they use ShuShu as a device to illuminate Mikono's feelings. Many times in this show, her character has felt like its been retreading old ground. Over and over. (Her actions in Ep. 9 brings in the line for Zessica to *take Amata* on the basis that Mikono doesn't do anything, this is a classic lampshade hanging if I've ever seen it, pointing out a major flaw in Mikono. Ep. 19 perpetuates this same thing because, once again, Mikono just furthers the non-conclusion of her relationship with Amata.)

Mikono's limbo climaxed at Ep. 15, was mentioned in Ep. 16... and then disappeared entirely along with Kagura (poof). They've recently started building on Mikono towards Amata more actively but the method is questionable. The realization/revelation with Cayenne, as it was presented, concerning Amata felt utterly bizarre with a reaction from Mikono as if she hadn't realized it. Her subsequent action in Ep. 19 continues to push on this same, somewhat, *taking for granted* build up because, as I mentioned, the action (even if its a staple of fiction, but usually used for a bittersweet conclusion or deconstruction of certain tropes) assumes that nothing will happen to Amata which is, much like her logic in Ep. 16, just plain stupid or verging on being able to see the future because of *plot*.

This is what annoys me.

Contrast this show with Mashifony for a recent drama done exceptionally well; this just feels like crap and very little is clear, even in retrospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Oh, but they do! I mean, probably not in real life, but I've seen this quite a few times. This is why that scene made me laugh, because it's supposed to be the other way around - the guy is about to go off to a war of something, and he tells the girl "I have something to tell you when I come back." I'm sure TVTropes has a spiffy name for this with some examples.
This trope is for fulfilled lovers, though, its for people who are explicitly stated to be in love with one another with no doubt in either about the other. That's hardly the case here because the story has never made that jump lest it conclude its drama and render Kagura irrelevant. In this case, its a different trope: Tempting Fate.
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Old 2012-05-17, 02:56   Link #109
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Just to break the current thread of discussion.

Ok. So, that's the whole Curse of the Eve plaguing Altair, and explaining as to why Altareans are abducting to find strong Iguras who can resist the curse.

Alicia was able to resist the curse, although from Izumo's dialogue I understood that she's been left in a frail condition which requires her body to be encased within the capsule.
Spoiler:


- You're wrong, my name is.... MIXY

The 'X' and 'Y' at the end of the name pretty much sums up the chromosomal connotation to expose for real the effects of the curse it has on females.

NO! Mixx is now Mixy; naturally-induced, biological sex change due to the curse in the environment.

Hahaha! Andy, you perv! Now, you won't be able to do your first (union) with the girl that you loved.
His gal is now a guy; kiss good-bye to those "big bangs"
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:36   Link #110
kuromitsu
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>Vena

I see where you're coming from but I don't agree, not on all points. To be honest currently I lack the capacity to argue - but I have a feeling we're approaching this from very different points of view, so there would be no point, anyway. Let's just see what happens.
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Old 2012-05-19, 21:56   Link #111
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You folks know what's really bugging me? Ever since January, I've been referring to Mix as "Mixy" due to my hilarious habit of nicknaming characters, and now I see in this episode 20 that the.... Man-Mix calls itself Mixy.....

For awhile now I've had this feeling that those folks involved in anime production are keeping tabs on this forum, that can't be true, right? I know I've been involved in the anime community for awhile, but this is just going too far now Seriously, a lot of things I've been saying on this forum came true in one way or another, not even changing the way I predict helps anymore

How am I supposed to call her now? I've always known her as Mixy, and now I have to change the way I name her? I called her Mixy first, you hear me Aquarion Writer? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

And what kind of logic is that, adding a "y" to make it a guys name? Don't get me started on the chromosome thing, we're talking about names here. And I can't think of any dual gender names like Alex-Alexis with the guy having a "y" at the end

To be honest, I'm not sure how to accept this series anymore. I mean, I was in it for the Girl-Mix, not this...... flat Mixy How cruel can it get? I used to be in this series for Zessi-chan too, but like other members have mentioned, she has become un-Zessica like of late.

Guess I should hope for a pantyshot of Crea. Whatever I say seems to come true anyways so why not hope for something tasty . Like, how about Zessica taking a bath, that would be nice, since she's now Queen of the big ones now
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