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Old 2012-05-15, 01:49   Link #1021
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, I disagree. Has SHAFT improved or gotten worse since increasing their productions?
Since increasing productions?

2009: 63 TV episodes + 4 OVAs (+1 Bluray only for Bake)
2010: 62 TV episodes + 3 OVAs (+2 Bluray only for Bake)
2011: 38 TV episodes + 6 OVAs + 1 movie (+1 Bluray only for Denpa Onna)
2012: Looking like 23-ish TV episodes. Movies are up in the air... perhaps one of the Madoka movies will make it but it's likely a fair bit will be reused footage. Kizumonogatari isn't supposed to make 2012 AFAIK.

From what I've seen, their output remained relatively constant until mid-2011 at which point it dropped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How does Madoka Magica, Nisemonogatari, and Denpa Onna look in comparison to older SHAFT works? The studio has improved markedly since increasing their productions, imo.
Tricky to say because Shaft's output level is high and I've hardly watched all their stuff. Madoka and Denpa Onna did strike me as a cut above for them which was impressive since they were still going at their normal release rate at the time (even factoring in that I think they would have missed the deadline on Madoka 11/12 by a fair margin even without the quake).

Nise looked good too but that's after they started to narrow their focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
SHAFT has built up two very high-profile properties (Madoka Magica and the Monogatari series) and has chosen to put a high priority on both. I like that approach. I think its a very fan-friendly approach. Basically, SHAFT now goes where their customers and fans want them to go. And that's a mark of a good entertainment company, imo.
They're actually concentrating on three projects: Madoka, Monogatari, and Hidamari Sketch. So two unparalled properties and one that managed 8K+ in it's second and third seasons. All collaborations with Aniplex as well.

That leaves Denpa Onna as the "limbo" property ATM with 6.6K season one sales, which would be less annoying if not for the Bluray only 13th episode leaving a huge unanswered questions and essentially WTF bombing the first twelve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
And you're right, Haruhi played a strong part in making KyoAni what it is today. I dare say that a lot of people became KyoAni fans due first and foremost to Haruhi.
My suspicion is that both Air was also a watershed moment but a lot of the legacy it would have had got buried by Haruhi's success.
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Old 2012-05-15, 02:29   Link #1022
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Since increasing productions?
Yes. Prior to 2009, SHAFT was making a bit less than they did from 2009 to 2011, IIRC.


Quote:
They're actually concentrating on three projects: Madoka, Monogatari, and Hidamari Sketch. So two unparalled properties and one that managed 8K+ in it's second and third seasons.
Well, I didn't say that Madoka and Monogatari were all they cared about, just that they were clearly top priority for SHAFT. Right after them would be Hidamari Sketch, yes.


Quote:
That leaves Denpa Onna as the "limbo" property ATM with 6.6K season one sales, which would be less annoying if not for the Bluray only 13th episode leaving a huge unanswered questions and essentially WTF bombing the first twelve.
I certainly hope that Denpa Onna gets continued eventually. But it's only been a year since the first season ended. It's a bit early to say it's in "limbo", imo. If come May of next year there's still no word on more Denpa Onna, then I'd say it's in limbo.


Quote:
My suspicion is that both Air was also a watershed moment but a lot of the legacy it would have had got buried by Haruhi's success.
Well, the Key Trio as a whole is also a big part of the KyoAni legacy as well, imo.

This is why Little Busters! going to JC Staff has made me a bit more antsy about Haruhi, I'll be honest there. Perhaps this is too dramatic of me to say, but it seems like KyoAni might be losing sight of its own legacy and much of what contributed to its current brand strength.


If you look at most of the prominent animation studios, many anime fans mentally associate them with particular popular properties that they've done a lot of work on.

Sunrise and Gundam.

Gainax and Eva.

JC Staff and Shana/Raildex/ZnT.


And I think Shinbo has learned from this model and is giving us...

Shaft and Madoka/Monogatari


You often speak of animation studios and their "brand" values or brand strength, and I think that's a good point to raise.

And this is where I think KyoAni might be hurting itself IF it continually puts new properties ahead of old, established properties with passionate fanbases.

KyoAni isn't famous simply for being KyoAni, it's famous in large part because of certain properties, just like those other studios are famous in large part because of certain properties. It certainly doesn't mean that's all those studios do, but it does mean they recognize the value of having certain properties that are front and center for their "brand".

KyoAni and Haruhi/K-On/Key blended for an awesome "brand" value, imo. A third of that (Key) has probably been lost. It would be a shame to lose two thirds or more of that.
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Old 2012-05-15, 02:29   Link #1023
TJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Honestly, I disagree. Has SHAFT improved or gotten worse since increasing their productions? How does Madoka Magica, Nisemonogatari, and Denpa Onna look in comparison to older SHAFT works? The studio has improved markedly since increasing their productions, imo.
Recent shows have looked better, but management-wise, I haven't heard of any major change yet. They're still working to the last minute, and the quality improvement partly stemmed from Aniplex's efforts in providing key animators (incidentally, one of the new Aniplex producers came from J.C.STAFF, where he helped assemble the animation teams for Zero no Tsukaima, Index Season 1 and Railgun. His participation meant that talent on those productions became involved with Madoka and Nisemonogatari).

As they're always walking on a tightrope, you never know when a production might derail. Bear in mind that SHAFT produced the Negima movie last year, which wasn't finished to spec.

Quote:
KyoAni and SHAFT also both strike me as "artsy" studios, for lack of a better term perhaps. I like how SHAFT doesn't feel to me like it's a "Factory Studio", even though its production output in some years is like that of a factory studio.
Business-wise, SHAFT is very much a factory studio. The priority has always been in supplying industry demand (sequels out by a demanded date, price undercutting to get a leg up over other studios, ample outsourcing, over-extension in terms of the number of contracts they sign) with variable quality and brutal schedule/personnel management. In that regard, they're just as bad as a Deen, AIC, or J.C.STAFF (if not worse in scheduling), and I doubt the owners have any artistic mission.

On the other hand, producer Kubota was smart to bring in Shinbo to establish a signature style and offset budget issues. That built up a brand and cult following.

Quote:
But in my view, good companies at least sometimes put their existing fans/customers first, even if slightly greener pastures might conceivably be elsewhere.
As with most anime studios, SHAFT serves their clients first - Aniplex, TBS, Starchild, etc. Satisfying fans may be a side effect (due to the client's goal of selling content), but they aren't in the business of acting on the consumer's best interests. They make sequels because the client pressures them to make sequels.

Think about why Negima turned out the way it did. Getting it out for a summer run was to please their client, Starchild (an obligation since they agreed to the contract despite being unprepared to produce the movie on time). Fans received a disappointing product.

Now KyoAni is in a rather strong position to set some of their own terms (i.e. one project at a time; with Kadokawa, they also have some say over what property they want to animate). However, it's certainly possible that they may have upset VisualArt's as a result. I suppose that they don't feel Key is all that crucial to their success in the business.
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Old 2012-05-15, 02:42   Link #1024
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
As with most anime studios, SHAFT serves their clients first - Aniplex, TBS, Starchild, etc. Satisfying fans may be a side effect (due to the client's goal of selling content), but they aren't in the business of acting on the consumer's best interests.
Anybody in business should be concerned with the customer's best interests. That's how you make and keep customers. That's how you make and keep good brand strength.

The brand strength and perception of an animation studio is ultimately decided by the fans, not by their clients. Of course, smart clients should keep that in mind as well.

And that's why KyoAni and Kadokawa should at least sometimes put their existing fans/customers first.
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Old 2012-05-15, 10:48   Link #1025
TJR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Anybody in business should be concerned with the customer's best interests. That's how you make and keep customers. That's how you make and keep good brand strength.

The brand strength and perception of an animation studio is ultimately decided by the fans, not by their clients. Of course, smart clients should keep that in mind as well.
That would be an ideal. I'm just saying that it really isn't the case for the anime industry, given its particular set of circumstances. As you probably know, most studios don't have much brand strength either, and the content they create caters to client demand (i.e. moe would be immediately dumped if industry demand were to shift. They wouldn't really care what today's fans had to say but would look toward the next trends and financing opportunities). They're cogs in the system, and the actual vendor/customer relationship is between, say, Aniplex and the anime collector.

SHAFT and J.C.STAFF are not exceptions, even if they produce many sequels. If their clients were to suddenly request all-original products and no sequels (which means cutting existing series short), they'd go with that.
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Old 2012-05-15, 16:05   Link #1026
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Interrupting the current discussion for a moment...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
Animation DO has announced their first solo project (nothing other than that announcement has been made), so this could be a way to "expand" without expanding the studio itself.
I have to say, I'm very curious to find out what this project will turn out to be. I wanted to believe in a consequential anime project at first but wasn't really aware of Animation DO's workforce, and after asking around, I've come to the conclusion that they probably couldn't pull off more than a short of some sort at this point. I thought we may figure something out during Hyouka's broadcast by looking at their involvement in its production, but it looks as if they are participating about just as much as in your past KyoAni productions, so I guess their full attention isn't on their "new project" either... or it could just be that Hyouka's second episode was actually finished a long time ago, but I doubt we're looking at more than a couple of months at best.

Going by the two illustrations that came along with the announcement on the Animation DO website, I also ended up wondering this might be some kind of attempt from whoever might be producing this project to bring the KyoAni quality to another kind of audience without hurting the studio's current image. I don't think anyone'd go through the risk of associating the studio with a potentially female-oriented work, hence using the subsidiary as a middle ground. That's a lot of assumptions based on just two pictures, though - watch it become the physical release of their illustration project instead of anything anime-related...
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Old 2012-05-15, 22:51   Link #1027
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When it comes to anime, it's important to remember that Anime doesn't run on a "studio" system. Though studios are important, the primary entity is actually the "production comittee" you see mentioned in pretty much every single anime opening out there. All the creative and financial decisions are made by members of that comittee, which usually first includes the publisher of the original work (if any), the author of the original work(or usually a representative they choose), DVD distributors, sponsors and the primary staff the comittee then chooses to employ (animation director, scriptwriters etc.). The production comittee negotiates with the studio, and the studio does as the comittee orders. The studio will primarily be responsible for the technical quality of the production, but all the creative decisions are taken by the production comittee.

This system is very similiar to how independent films are made in the US, and is quite versatile.

The most powerful members of the comittee by far are the original publisher, the author (who can veto anything). The studio is more of a workhorse, though the prominent staff on the comittee are often associated with a particular studio (like Shinbo and SHAFT), but not always so.

If studios seem to have a "brand" it's more to do with the fact the publishers build a relationship with the studio, and keep employing them for projects they think will work well with the studio, it's not any concious decision on the part of the studio. It's simplistic to put everything on the studio, when success or failure of a series usually has a lot more to do with the people behind the studio.


Anyway, as for Kyo Ani, I think the way they're doing new shows is a good idea. They've done well off haruhi, but I think the success of that franchise is beginning to peter out, so it's a good idea for them to branch out. I don't think they're doing a disservice to "the fans" by doing so. Now whatever show they're doing may or may not turn out well, but KyoAni can't produce hits all the time. That said, I do find it strange that Little Busters ended out going to JC staff, given KyoAni's previous success with Key stuff.

Personally, I think the strength of Anime is that it doesn't get too bogged down in pre-existing properties, it gives those properties their place in the sun, and they move on. Compare that to Marvel or DC, or american television. If the industry shifts just to servicing old properties, Anime will lose a lot of the creativity and variety that makes it great. Rather then make more Haruhi, I'd prefer KyoAni to make new shows that capture what it was we all liked about Haruhi in the first place. I think they had a decent stab with Nichijou, I'm taking a wait and see approach in terms of the future. Maybe Chū-2 Byō Demo Koi ga Shitai! will be interesting. It sounds a bit clichéd, but it's theme of adolescent delusions of grandeur could be good.
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Old 2012-05-15, 23:01   Link #1028
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It has been suggested that Clannad and Clannad: After Story bogged the animation staff down for too long verses how much they got on their return. They basically were doing nothing but Clannad for about a year. This was also while still contracted to product more Haruhi and later K-On and Haruhi-chan, plus redo Munto. They managed to get out a Lucky Star OVA between Clannad and After Story.

Little Busters is functionally longer than Clannad, and they might have had a problem using that much time in response to other projects they have lined up. (Little Busters would not have been a Kadokawa project)
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Old 2012-05-15, 23:10   Link #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
When it comes to anime, it's important to remember that Anime doesn't run on a "studio" system. Though studios are important, the primary entity is actually the "production comittee" you see mentioned in pretty much every single anime opening out there. All the creative and financial decisions are made by members of that comittee, which usually first includes the publisher of the original work (if any), the author of the original work(or usually a representative they choose), DVD distributors, sponsors and the primary staff the comittee then chooses to employ (animation director, scriptwriters etc.). The production comittee negotiates with the studio, and the studio does as the comittee orders. The studio will primarily be responsible for the technical quality of the production, but all the creative decisions are taken by the production comittee.

This system is very similiar to how independent films are made in the US, and is quite versatile.

The most powerful members of the comittee by far are the original publisher, the author (who can veto anything). The studio is more of a workhorse, though the prominent staff on the comittee are often associated with a particular studio (like Shinbo and SHAFT), but not always so.
Again, I will point out that KyoAni, unlike other studios like Shaft and JC. Staff are almost always included on the production committee (and have been since Haruhi if not AIR), thus giving them more power over the production than other studios have with Kadokawa/TBS/Pony Canyon. You can see this easily in the opening credits of their shows as you mentioned, or that they help sponsor the TV timeslots for their shows.

By being in the committee, they can help decide what will be best for a work. They (as a committee) decided that Disappearance would work best as a movie instead of 7 episodic installments, and it was changed. Tanigawa himself has commented on the changes that KyoAni wanted to make for the franchise's adaptations and how well they turned out. They're much more vocal than you give them credit for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If studios seem to have a "brand" it's more to do with the fact the publishers build a relationship with the studio, and keep employing them for projects they think will work well with the studio, it's not any concious decision on the part of the studio. It's simplistic to put everything on the studio, when success or failure of a series usually has a lot more to do with the people behind the studio.
Again, by being on the production committee, they have a more personal relationship with the producers of the shows like Itou (from Kadokawa). This allows them to keep getting work from those two production companies (Kadokawa/Lantis and TBS/Pony Canyon).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Anyway, as for Kyo Ani, I think the way they're doing new shows is a good idea. They've done well off haruhi, but I think the success of that franchise is beginning to peter out, so it's a good idea for them to branch out. I don't think they're doing a disservice to "the fans" by doing so.
Why yes, selling at least 130,000 BD/DVDs for the movie, earning over 800 million yen in theatres, selling double what any other light novel (and in a double-pack at that) are surely signs of a "petering out" franchise. That's not mentioning the delay of the BD-Box due to more pre-orders than expected, and it still remains the top selling re-release BD-Box for anime. How is that "petering out?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Now whatever show they're doing may or may not turn out well, but KyoAni can't produce hits all the time. That said, I do find it strange that Little Busters ended out going to JC staff, given KyoAni's previous success with Key stuff.
Key partnered with TBS/Pony Canyon for their KyoAni shows. TBS and Pony Canyon decided (with KyoAni) to adapt a little known manga called K-On!. It kinda became a huge deal and TBS/Pony Canyon liked the increase in funds they received from that over any of the Key works and kept producing more K-On!, preventing Key from being on KyoAni's schedule. Key became impatient for KyoAni/TBS/Pony Canyon to free a slot and went with Warner Brothers/J.C. Staff instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Personally, I think the strength of Anime is that it doesn't get too bogged down in pre-existing properties, it gives those properties their place in the sun, and they move on. Compare that to Marvel or DC, or american television. If the industry shifts just to servicing old properties, Anime will lose a lot of the creativity and variety that makes it great. Rather then make more Haruhi, I'd prefer KyoAni to make new shows that capture what it was we all liked about Haruhi in the first place. I think they had a decent stab with Nichijou, I'm taking a wait and see approach in terms of the future.
That's a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. I would like to see them make more Haruhi seasons myself, but we simply disagree at this point. That's not to say I won't enjoy any shows they make; I'll merely be disappointed at the lack of Haruhi anime.
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Old 2012-05-15, 23:41   Link #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
Again, I will point out that KyoAni, unlike other studios like Shaft and JC. Staff are almost always included on the production committee (and have been since Haruhi if not AIR), thus giving them more power over the production than other studios have with Kadokawa/TBS/Pony Canyon. You can see this easily in the opening credits of their shows as you mentioned, or that they help sponsor the TV timeslots for their shows.

By being in the committee, they can help decide what will be best for a work. They (as a committee) decided that Disappearance would work best as a movie instead of 7 episodic installments, and it was changed. Tanigawa himself has commented on the changes that KyoAni wanted to make for the franchise's adaptations and how well they turned out. They're much more vocal than you give them credit for.
This is true, KyoAni is one of the more discerning studios, yes, in terms of studio identity it rates more highly then most studios, up there with Sunrise and Gainax. Both those studios do contract work and their own series.

KyoAni is more known for it's style, not necessarily creativity. I would say that the identity of it's franchises (particularly Haruhi, and Key) is as much to do with Kadokawa or Pony Canyon etc. as to do with KyoAni.

Quote:
Why yes, selling at least 130,000 BD/DVDs for the movie, earning over 800 million yen in theatres, selling double what any other light novel (and in a double-pack at that) are surely signs of a "petering out" franchise. That's not mentioning the delay of the BD-Box due to more pre-orders than expected, and it still remains the top selling re-release BD-Box for anime. How is that "petering out?"
Certainly new Haruhi stuff will shift DVDs, but it's not the meme generating phenomenon that it was back in 2006. It will do good business, but not amazing business. And where kadokawa is concerned, it's not going to sell more peripheral merchandise.

Anime is as much an advertisement as a product in and of itself. A large component of it's profit is that it shifts more copies of what it's adapting, sells models, and other miscellaneous merch. In that respect, Kadokawa doesn't have as much to gain from further mining the Haruhi franchise, as it can't expect to see the same kind of bump in sales of those products. Sequels won't create new fans, they just serve existing fans. And those existing fans are likely to buy more merch regardless of whether new sequels get put out. It's more profitable for Kadokawa to sell new franchises.

Also, just personally, I didn't find the sequels to have quite quirky charm the original show had. The movie was too dramatic, and the s2 had endless eight... Even if it's still financially strong, I feel like it's creatively petered out.
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Old 2012-05-15, 23:50   Link #1031
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If I recall the next part of the series returns a bit to the quirky bits. Though they keep some of the dramatic to keep a plot in motion. There however will not be another Endless Eight

Though there will be time travel and dimention hopping....but this is Haurhi....that is expected. Especially since the next major plot is suppoes to center around Mikuru (the main girl that hasn't had any real focus. Well focus that isn't on her chest that is). But also more Tsuruya, along with some surprises.
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Old 2012-05-16, 11:59   Link #1032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJR View Post
That would be an ideal. I'm just saying that it really isn't the case for the anime industry, given its particular set of circumstances. As you probably know, most studios don't have much brand strength either, and the content they create caters to client demand (i.e. moe would be immediately dumped if industry demand were to shift. They wouldn't really care what today's fans had to say but would look toward the next trends and financing opportunities).
I get and respect where you're coming from. There's some truth and facts in much of what you've wrote on this thread.

But I think that you're taking your overall line of reasoning a bit too far. You're creating a false division between "industry demand" and fan demand.

Who determines "industry demand"? Paying fans do.

It's the fans that demand moe, not the client. If the fans all suddenly lost interest in moe, do you think the client would keep wanting to make it even if it didn't sell and gave them poor return on investment? Of course they wouldn't. Not unless they have a taste for financial suicide, anyway.

And if the fans continue to demand moe, are clients going to ask for it to stop even if that's what the fans overwhelmingly demand? Of course they won't, because it's simply bad business to refuse to give your customers what they want to pay you money for.


Kadokawa and KyoAni are not immune to fan demand, or fan disinterest. No company working in the entertainment industry is, no matter what part of the chain that company is in.

Yes, KyoAni works directly for their client Kadokawa, but if fan support was to dry up, that would obviously negatively impact KyoAni anyway, right? So it's only good sense for KyoAni to also want to please their fans. And it's obvious that KyoAni itself has fans - This thread alone proves that.


So it's not an either/or situation. It's not like the client is the only thing that matters. A smart contractor wants what he's contracted to do to be popular and well-received in and of itself. Some companies pass customer service responsibilities over to third-party contractors, for example. I personally have worked for such a third-party contractor in the past. It didn't mean that myself or my bosses didn't care about the customer, and only cared about the client (I can tell you for a fact that we did care about the customer). If we provide poor customer service than that reflects poorly on us even if we're working directly for the client and not the customers.


Quote:
SHAFT and J.C.STAFF are not exceptions, even if they produce many sequels. If their clients were to suddenly request all-original products and no sequels (which means cutting existing series short), they'd go with that.
Then SHAFT and their clients would both be ran by idiots deserving of criticism, which thankfully they're not.

That's all I'm really crediting SHAFT and its clients for - For recognizing where the fan demand is, and making an actual effort to meet it. Even if that effort is a mere "side-effect" of something else, it's functionally the same from a fan perspective, and so deserving of fan support and thanks, imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post


Anyway, as for Kyo Ani, I think the way they're doing new shows is a good idea. They've done well off haruhi, but I think the success of that franchise is beginning to peter out, so it's a good idea for them to branch out. I don't think they're doing a disservice to "the fans" by doing so.
Let me throw out an analogy here.

Let's say Peter Jackson had decided to not complete the Lord of the Rings trilogy in spite of how well the first movie did. Let's say he did TV interviews saying "Sorry, but I hate doing repeat work. Also, I think it's a good idea to branch out with a bold artistic vision, and not focus too much on franchises that are petering out. So I'm not going to bother adapting the rest of the Lord of the Rings book into film."

How do you think Lord of the Rings fans would react to that?

Their perfectly reasonable hopes and expectations (given how well the first movie sold) have now been crushed. Many would angrily say "Part of the reason I so strongly supported the first movie is because I wanted to see all of the Lord of the Rings book adapted into film!"

These Lord of the Rings fans would be absolutely incensed.

To me, this is obviously a very poor way to treat the paying customers who supported you in the first place, and so it would be deserving of fan criticism. It is doing a disservice to the fans, in my view. Now, would Peter Jackson have an actual legal obligation to finish off the Lord of the Rings movies, based purely on fan demand? Of course not.

But that doesn't mean that fans wouldn't feel like they have a right to expect to see the Lord of the Rings films completed, given how the first movie did really well financially and clearly leaves lots of story left to be told (just like Haruhi 2006 and the Disappearance movie is clear here).


And Haruhi is about as big in the anime world as Lord of the Rings was in the movie world (the movie world itself is much bigger worldwide than the anime world, of course, but that's beside the point here).


Now, I don't think that anybody is saying that Haruhi should last forever. Honestly, I hope it doesn't. You mentioned Marvel and DC comics, and yeah, part of the reason why I transitioned from comic book fan to anime fan is I got tired of endless stories without true finality. Batman, Superman, Spiderman, and Wolverine - They never get to see their stories finished, they never truly get the happy end, or finality of any sort. Unlike, say, Shana. Or Tomoya in Clannad.

That's one of the great things about anime - Actual, complete stories with a beginning, a middle, and an end. And that's precisely why many of us want to see more Haruhi adapted into anime - We want to watch it get to the end. Or at least that's why I want it anyway.

I can't think of many things more unsatisfying than a great story left unfinished. That's all some of us are asking for here: Finish the work that you began. Eventually.

It's not like we're asking for sequels for Toradora, or endless Haruhi spinoffs. It's not like we're refusing to accept that a story has reached its natural end, and it really is time to move on.


In fairness to you, though, if you didn't like the Disappearance movie, I can certainly see and respect why you personally might not want more Haruhi. But from what I can tell most Haruhi fans (including myself) were pleased with the Disappearance movie, so for the sake of those fans, I think that KyoAni should continue making more Haruhi at some point anyway.
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Old 2012-05-16, 17:20   Link #1033
DonQuigleone
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I think equating Haruhi to LotR isn't corrent as in terms of forms there's a big difference.

LotR is one coherent narative, the books were never intended to be taken alone (the split into 3 seperate books was not intended by Tolkien). Haruhi, on the other hand, is made up a series of books, each with a seperate plotline, tied together only by it's common set of characters, who also have evolving storylines of their own. If we're to compare to classic book series, Haruhi is closer in form to something like The Famous Five. Adapting just one part of the Famous Five without the rest, would not be as much of an afront to the fans as just adapting one part of LoTR. For instance, taken on it's own, the original series, despite leaving a slew of questions unanswered generally feels "finished".


Also, if we focus in on the Haruhi Franchise itself, looking purely at the source material, there's nothing actually particularly remarkeable about it. In the world of Light Novels, Haruhi is not a particularly remarkeable story, and there are many other light novels that are a lot like it.

Personally, what makes Haruhi as great as it is mostly comes from the KyoAni side of the equation. If the show had been in the hands of a lesser studio like DEEN or JC Staff, it would have been just a footnote to 2006's other successful series. It was what KyoAni brought to the table that really made it as great as it was, the non-linear episode order, the catchy ending theme/dance, the movie within a movie, the weird meta humour and sight gags, and of course KyoAni's always high production values.

In a straight sequel, I don't see how KyoAni can easily replicate that. Sure they can straight adapt the source material, but all the variety that made the first series good is going to be very difficult to do a second time around, the first series had surprise going in it's favour, it was very easy for it to endlessly surprise it's viewers, that's going to be very hard to do again, as everyone will be expecting it, and a lot of the fans will have already read later parts of the LN series. Admittedly they succeeded with Endless Eight, though not necessarily in a good way...

Another factor to bear in mind is the way the staff at KyoAni has changed since then. Now I'm not saying it's not a better or worse studio now, but it is a different studio. One of the people that contributed to Haruhi being what it was Yutaka Yamamoto, now his work since leaving KyoAni hasn't been stellar, and I'm no fan of his "Drama" (KyoAni is probably ultimately better off without him), but Haruhi was the way it was in large part due to his influence. Later Haruhi productions made without him have much more played up the Moé elements latent in the series, which wasn't what made Haruhi popular in the first place (arguably it was the way it parodied Moé that made it popular...).

Also, with a 28 episode series, and a near 3 hour movie, we're reaching the stage where we have a lot of Haruhi, but no ultimate conclusion in sight, as the novel series at this stage is going to keep being written until it stops making money. It's gotten too popular for it's own health, so I don't see it ending satisfactorily in the near future.

I'd like to see KyoAni do similiar stuff again, but I won't personally be looking forward to more Haruhi, for the reasons above.

That said, I could also be proved wrong, I liked Clannad After Story a lot more then Clannad, for instance.
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Old 2012-05-16, 18:07   Link #1034
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I think equating Haruhi to LotR isn't corrent as in terms of forms there's a big difference.
If the only part of the Haruhi novels to be adapted was Melancholy, the very first novel, I'd probably be inclined to agree with you. Melancholy does end with a certain degree of finality, and can certainly work well as a standalone, imo.

But I don't think the same is true of Disappearance, the latest full Haruhi novel to be adapted into anime, IIRC.

There's a scene in Disappearance that clearly points to yet-to-be-seen story (to avoid spoiling anything, all I'll say here is think about how the conflict of Disappearance is resolved and what it indicates narrative-wise).

I think that a strong case can be made that starting with Disappearance, the Haruhi novels are increasingly tying into each other more and more.


Quote:
Also, if we focus in on the Haruhi Franchise itself, looking purely at the source material, there's nothing actually particularly remarkeable about it. In the world of Light Novels, Haruhi is not a particularly remarkeable story, and there are many other light novels that are a lot like it.
I'm admittedly not well-versed in the world of Japanese-made light novels, but from the ones I've seen adapted into anime, I have to disagree with you. I think that Haruhi is a remarkably good and well-written story. I think it has a very strong and compelling main cast of characters, and includes an excellent blend of many great elements.

So I simply have to disagree with your assessment of the quality of the Haruhi narrative and its characters.

That being said, I'm curious to know what you would count as "remarkable" for you.


Quote:
Also, with a 28 episode series, and a near 3 hour movie, we're reaching the stage where we have a lot of Haruhi, but no ultimate conclusion in sight, as the novel series at this stage is going to keep being written until it stops making money. It's gotten too popular for it's own health, so I don't see it ending satisfactorily in the near future.
This is the one area where I might agree with you.

However, the day will come when the Haruhi novels are finished. It way be a long way off, but it will come. When that day comes, I hope we have gone farther into the anime adaptation of the property than Disappearance.
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Old 2012-05-16, 18:31   Link #1035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm admittedly not well-versed in the world of Japanese-made light novels, but from the ones I've seen adapted into anime, I have to disagree with you. I think that Haruhi is a remarkably good and well-written story. I think it has a very strong and compelling main cast of characters, and includes an excellent blend of many great elements.

So I simply have to disagree with your assessment of the quality of the Haruhi narrative and its characters.
Well, it is true that the original book won a fairly prestigious prize. That said, in terms of popularity, the Anime was what made it popular, it wasn't particularly popular prior to being an Anime (book sales prior to Anime: ~70,000, sales to date 4.3 million!). Likewise, I'd say the Anime also drove almost all the sales of the peripheral merchandise. Other big Anime franchises, say FMA or Dragon Ball, were all succesful prior to being animated, the animation just further increased it.

Quote:
That being said, I'm curious to know what you would count as "remarkable" for you.
Generally, as a medium, I wouldn't consider most Light novels to be very good (they're basically young adult fiction, and similiar in quality to our own). That said, judging purely from anime adaptations, I'd describe Nisio Isin(Bakemonogatari) and Ryohgo Narita (Baccano) as being perhaps the best light novel writers around at the moment.

Casting the net wider to Japanese young adult "full novels", I'd also say Yoshiki Tanaka (Legend of the Galactic Heroes), and Nahoko Uehashi (Seirei no Moribito) are very good too.

I'm sure there's others I'm missing as well. Can't really say that much for certain without actually reading them in the original Japanese.

Quote:
This is the one area where I might agree with you.

However, the day will come when the Haruhi novels are finished. It way be a long way off, but it will come. When that day comes, I hope we have gone farther into the anime adaptation of the property than Disappearance.
Maybe one series more, further then that, and they're stretching it.
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Old 2012-05-19, 23:20   Link #1036
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So i watched some TSR tonight because i was feeling nostalgic. their animation has definitely gotten worse since that time.. for me personally, the show that i'll rate all other shows Kyo Ani makes against is TSR.
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Old 2012-05-20, 11:57   Link #1037
rulfo
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New KyoAni CM for one of it's LNs aired during this weeks episode of Hyouka(ep 5)

The LN: http://www.kyotoanimation.co.jp/books/kyokai/

Spoiler for Screenshots for New KyoAni CM:


Man this really looks like something I'd see from Bakemonogatari.
Can't wait for someone to upload the video of the CM.
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Old 2012-05-20, 14:32   Link #1038
DonQuigleone
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Very nice.

I've always pinned KyoAni's talents to be primarily in the "realism" department, but maybe this shows there's even more to them.
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Old 2012-05-20, 23:48   Link #1039
rulfo
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Well since no one has ripped/uploaded a high quality version of the CM from the raw transport stream I'll just post this here then.

http://www.justin.tv/playstation_x/b/318834000

Skip to 12:49 for those who want to view to the CM.

If only I knew how to rip and encode I'd surely upload this. With this video quality doesn't do it a little bit of justice. :P
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Old 2012-05-21, 03:42   Link #1040
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