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Old 2012-05-12, 17:17   Link #301
mAc Chaos
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Well, I meant the heroes, like Shirou. He was pretty much getting by the skin of his teeth the entire time, whereas Kiritsugu had everything accounted for all the way.
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Old 2012-05-12, 17:19   Link #302
Touko
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Yeah, F/Z made me appreciate the FSN heroes a lot more, especially considering how much more they accomplish with how much less they have.
The only FSN Hero that was gimped was Emiya, all the other Heroes were as legitimate and as powerful as those in F/Z.

Stuff seems "harder" because most of the Masters in FSN are n00blets, while the Masters in F/Z actually knew what they were doing and had clear goals.

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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
Well, I meant the heroes, like Shirou. He was pretty much getting by the skin of his teeth the entire time, whereas Kiritsugu had everything accounted for all the way.
Yes, I agree.

Although I am not sure if you should cheer for them, or point and laugh at their competencies.
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Old 2012-05-12, 17:45   Link #303
mAc Chaos
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Yeah, so for me, it's more of an accomplishment for the amateurs to succeed where their competent predecessors failed.
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Old 2012-05-12, 20:53   Link #304
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Kiritsugu... killed his father, his mother and soon he will kill his wife too.

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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
So this week, we get to see where Mind of Steel leads to if you chose to go after it in HF ...

I have to say, I might end up replaying Fate/Stay Night again. So much of Fate/Zero is making me realize how much significance was there to these choices.

Also, I think I might be liking Shirou a lot more now ...
I am going to play it again as well. This time it will be with the Realta Nua CG and music patch.
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Old 2012-05-12, 22:56   Link #305
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Interesting. Looks like Saber and Kiritsugu are surprisingly similar. Both put their ideals and the good of others over their own personal gain and loss. That's some rock solid integrity there.
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Old 2012-05-13, 03:15   Link #306
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A lot of the characters in Fate series are similar that they are very single-minded about their belief.
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Old 2012-05-13, 03:16   Link #307
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Interesting. Looks like Saber and Kiritsugu are surprisingly similar. Both put their ideals and the good of others over their own personal gain and loss. That's some rock solid integrity there.
Shirou's like her too.
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Old 2012-05-13, 03:32   Link #308
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All Masters and Servants are similar to a degree, in spite of how often they seem to clash. That's one of the most curious and interesting aspects of the F/Z teams.

- Saber and Kiritsugu are both absolutists in their ideals, but they also place all of the burden on their shoulders and never feel the need to explain their actions to others, unless deeply inquired about it, which often leads to them ending up being misunderstood and hated by the very same people they wish to save and protect.

- Archer and Tokiomi are both extremely proud and self-important and consider their view of the world to be an unquestionable truth.

- Lancer and Kayneth both fight in order to be recognized by those whose acknowledgment they desire and remain loyal to those same people no matter what (his lord for Lancer and his fiancée for Kayneth).

- Rider and Waver are both "fools" who ignore their human insignificance and aspire to deeds far greater than the small creatures they are.

- Caster and Ryuunosuke are self-explanatory.

- Berserker and Kariya have both descended unto madness and if Berserker is who the first ED makes him out to be, the circumstances surrounding that descent aren't entirely dissimilar either.

- Assassin and Kirei is trickier, given how little we got to see of the former, but Kirei was pretty much like a shadow himself at first, hollow and joyless, so they fit well enough.

- And of course, the latest team of Kirei and Gil is also rather self-explanatory. The Schadenfreude is strong in those two.
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Old 2012-05-13, 08:06   Link #309
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Nasu always comes up with fantastic characters and the pairings.
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Old 2012-05-13, 10:00   Link #310
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Nasu always comes up with fantastic characters and the pairings.
Gen came up with the FZ pairs, with the exception of kiri and saber.
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Old 2012-05-13, 11:13   Link #311
Tenchi Hou Take
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A lot of the characters in Fate series are similar that they are very single-minded about their belief.
Shirou is probably the most single minded considering he managed to convince both Saber and archer that their regrets were unfounded, consider Archer's essentially a extremely possible future self if not for certain situations it's a pretty large feat.

Also unlike Saber and Archer when he found out his path could very well lead to him ending up in his own personal hell, he did not back down and pretty much said so be it.
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Old 2012-05-13, 12:13   Link #312
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Personally, I think you could say that after Fate's Route he followed his beliefs and continued on being a hero, and at the end of his journey he wasn't appreciated and executed by his own saved people. However, he died with a smile in the end.

But then his new life as a Cleaner of the World began. In Heaven's Feel he would never have turned into Emiya because he turned away from his own beliefs. In Unlimited Blade Works he swore that he would never feel regret, and with Rin looking over his path he still would've turned into Emiya, but not the one who felt regret but at peace.

So yeah, it is most likely that in Fate's route, where the strongest miracle had shone brightly, was ultimately the tragic path that misled him into a state of despair.
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Old 2012-05-13, 13:19   Link #313
Touko
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Personally, I think you could say that after Fate's Route he followed his beliefs and continued on being a hero, and at the end of his journey he wasn't appreciated and executed by his own saved people. However, he died with a smile in the end.

But then his new life as a Cleaner of the World began. In Heaven's Feel he would never have turned into Emiya because he turned away from his own beliefs. In Unlimited Blade Works he swore that he would never feel regret, and with Rin looking over his path he still would've turned into Emiya, but not the one who felt regret but at peace.

So yeah, it is most likely that in Fate's route, where the strongest miracle had shone brightly, was ultimately the tragic path that misled him into a state of despair.
Nope.

The possibilities are pretty much the same, nearly nonexistent.

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Q: During the last part of Sakura’s route, Shirou was saved by the tiny bit of residual mana in Tohsaka Rin’s pendant. Also, it seems like Rin knew about the difference in residual mana between the thing he got back from Archer and the thing he was holding, so could Sakura’s route be the one in which Shirou becomes a Heroic Spirit after all? Or could you tell us the route(s) in which Shirou doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit?
A: I’ll just say now that he doesn’t become a Heroic Spirit in any of the routes, but the possibility is still present in all of them as well. Basically, the probability of it happening is almost zero.
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Old 2012-05-13, 14:39   Link #314
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Gen came up with the FZ pairs, with the exception of kiri and saber.
Yes, you're right. Nasu named them based on Urobuchi's descriptions, everyone but Maiya. Urobuchi even wrote the first volume with codes for names.
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Old 2012-05-17, 16:31   Link #315
Klashikari
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Since I don't want to risk any spoiler in the episode thread, half displacing a discussion I had:

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Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
no master, no link, no link servant disappears, it is simple as that.
return and read/watch FSN where it was explained, FSN caster made a contract with non magic person so she wouldn't disappear, as simple as that, and it is worthwhile noting that she too had unlimited supply of mana
That point we can agree. However, your example raise an amusing point: Kuzuki does not have any command spell despite being Caster's master.
Whereas Kuzuki does serve as the anchor to Caster, the contract itself doesn't have this particular element that is naturally present with other Servant/Master pairing.
And no, the CS Caster has are her own, as she is herself a magus. Kuzuki is not one, and doesn't even have any magic circuit, so inheriting Caster's previous master CS or given by the grail is an impossible scenario.

Therefore, this point perfectly proves that Command Spells are -not- part of the contract (although they are proof that the grail acknowledge the magus as a Master). They are only part of what give the authority of the master towards the servant.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-05-17 at 17:07.
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:04   Link #316
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well, what made us go that way was discussing this point: can Kayneth impose danger to Kiritsugu?

your point was that his presence is enough to maintain a servant, my point was: he needs to make a contract.

my other question (which is spoiler too), if no contract was needed to person to provide mana, then why Emya Shiro needed to sleep with saber to provided mana for her due to his incomplete contract?
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:14   Link #317
Klashikari
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And your point was supplemented that "he cannot make any contract without CS", which is rendered moot by this point.
I also brought the specific part that CS can be granted even if you have used all of them.
Therefore, even if Kayneth was crippled to death (which wasn't exactly the case, since he still could roam around with his chair), he is theorically able to make another contract with a masterless servant. That possibility alone explains why Kiritsugu executed him (I don't care however weakened Kayneth is whatsoever: the discussion was solely about the reasoning behind it, as you kept claiming there wasn't any need for that, despite the whole motto of the masters are to kill each other, not merely incapacitate them).

As for your second question: Shirou is not a full fledged mage. He wasn't really thought the basics, and went straight to his "speciality": reinforcement (albeit a side effect) and tracing.
Heck, he wasn't the one initiating Saber's summoning, as it was basically a sheer amount of coincidence (Iri's "workshop", Avalon inside of him, etc)
Rin even had to explain magecraft to him at some point.

So no surprise the link between him and Saber was quite weak.
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:20   Link #318
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Originally Posted by brandon279 View Post
well, what made us go that way was discussing this point: can Kayneth impose danger to Kiritsugu?

your point was that his presence is enough to maintain a servant, my point was: he needs to make a contract.

my other question (which is spoiler too), if no contract was needed to person to provide mana, then why Emya Shiro needed to sleep with saber to provided mana for her due to his incomplete contract?
Because she needed mana for the fight against Berserker and she was running low. It wasn't actually needed for Saber to sleep Shiro, she could sleep with any "magus". But because of the situation sleeping with Shiro was the most convenient.
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:25   Link #319
brandon279
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then you woud think a link with mage all his circuits busted would be strong?

really?

link between rider and Mato was busted because he had no active circuits, he was unable to provide rider with any mana, why do think Kayneth would be able to provide with busted nonworking circuits? (not that we suppose that the grail gives him seals while that is unlikely)

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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Because she needed mana for the fight against Berserker and she was running low. It wasn't actually needed for Saber to sleep Shiro, she could sleep with any "magus". But because of the situation sleeping with Shiro was the most convenient.
sleeping with = making contract.

she cant sleep with anybody except her master (or master to be if she is master-less).
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Old 2012-05-17, 17:33   Link #320
Klashikari
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And since when I did say he could be strong?
You make the assumption that servant would be picky with their masters, despite non archer class would have trouble to stay materialized if they don't have their masters.
But interestingly enough, you bring Caster's case despite she sure made the worst choice of master there (infatuation was part of the equation, but simply speaking she was on the verge of disappearing, so she had no choice but use Kuzuki).

That aside, if we assume Kayneth is left alive, so is Sola, which means Kayneth can once again performs his circus and use Sola as the prana provider.
Also, remember that even if the magic circuit were wrecked by Kiritsugu, they are not destroyed: they are merely stitched badly together, which would impair his magecraft ability. By definition, even if the quality of the circuit is bad, you still can generate prana.
So however crippled he became, he is "legit" for being a Master again, and I really doubt a servant would have any choice between that and disappear completely. Would he be as strong as before? Doubtful. Would he be another opponent to face? Yes if the circumstances are met, and thus having to deal yet with another servant, which is what you want to avoid at all cost.
So eliminating any possible returning master is quite normal, and mentioned several times in both Zero and SN.

And no, it isn't unlikely that the grail would choose Kayneth since the grail tends to choose Magus that were already chosen, along with the condition that one individual from each of the 3 great family is chosen.
In fact, Kirei hardly was a "likely" choice either at the first glance.
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